NYC bus drivers don’t want to be responsible for killing pedestrians, protest by driving carefully?

[Q113 LTD]

In 2014, 144 pedestrians were killed in traffic collisions in New York City. According to data compiled by WNYC, at least five of those deaths involved an MTA bus. One of those victims was Marisol Martinez , a nursing student at Hunter College. She was killed at the age of 21, after visiting family in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. She was hit by the Q59 bus as it turned left onto Meeker Avenue. Every single pedestrian death is a tragedy, as New York City’s Vision Zero campaign recognizes. And while many of its changes, like new road designs and better bike lanes are being welcomed by pedestrian and bike advocates, a number of Vision Zero policies have been met with controversy. One of those policies is the enforcement of a law that criminalizes drivers who kill or seriously injure pedestrians who are hit in a crosswalk. But the bus driver’s union, TWU Local 100, wants an exemption of this law for its members. Yesterday, several drivers in uptown Manhattan and the Bronx protested Zero Vision. The drivers followed the letter of the law exactly, waiting until all pedestrians had completely left the crosswalks. They also handed out a cartoon depicting Mayor Bill DeBlasio arresting a black female bus driver with the message “Do not turn unless the intersection is clear!” Under the Vision Zero, six bus drivers have been arrested for hitting pedestrians, with five cases involving deaths and one case involving an injury. The protest meant a slower bus ride for many riders and held up traffic for other drivers. “This is horrible,” one bus rider told The New York Post. “Now everyone on this bus is late because they want to protest.” But shouldn’t bus operators drive carefully all the time? Gothamist asked union spokesman Pete Donahue this very question. "Common sense would dictate that you should not give a bus a green light to make a left turn onto a street and, at the same time, give pedestrians the 'walk' signal to cross that same street," Donahue replied. Instead, he said bus drivers should be given left-turn only signals, while at the same time giving pedestrians a signal not to cross.

 

Source: http://www.treehugger.com/public-transportation/nyc-bus-drivers-dont-want-be-responsible-pedestrian-deaths-protest-holding-traffic.html

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I have to say that service is becoming worse. I got the 00:30 BxM2 last night. Bus was 20 minutes late after midnight!  I called the depot and was told the B/O was stuck in traffic.  The guy finally arrived (not on BusTime) and drove like he was on-time, and actually waited at stops like he was early.  I said to myself this guy is 20 minutes late and is driving like this??  Got home in under an hour, but I am usually home in Riverdale a little after 01:00 at that time.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Like it was said in the other threads, it just makes them look worse than ever because of their behavior in this protest, and not likely to get what they want.

I have a feeling the MTA might get sued soon and be taken to court because almost every bus is becoming later than they should be. But even if they are taken to court and the MTA is guilty, the practice of late buses is not gonna be solved so IMO, I'm not sure if this protest will solve or help anyone at all.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Like it was said in the other threads, it just makes them look worse than ever because of their behavior in this protest, and not likely to get what they want.

I have a feeling the MTA might get sued soon and be taken to court because almost every bus is becoming later than they should be. But even if they are taken to court and the MTA is guilty, the practice of late buses is not gonna be solved so IMO, I'm not sure if this protest will solve or help anyone at all.

lol.. What would they be taken to court for?  There is no law that says buses have to be on time.  The schedules approximate, but at the same time what could happen is politicians coming down on the if enough people complain from different communities.  Buses in the morning have been coming on time but they're not getting to the destination early.  Usually late.  At night buses remain a problem... 

[MysteriousBtrain]

lol.. What would they be taken to court for? There is no law that says buses have to be on time. The schedules approximate, but at the same time what could happen is politicians coming down on the if enough people complain from different communities. Buses in the morning have been coming on time but they're not getting to the destination early. Usually late. At night buses remain a problem...

I mean not that they would actually win the case, but some random new yorker may try to complain similar to New York City Transit Authority v. Beazer even though both are completely different. But it's not like late buses are unconstitutional. Like you said, why would it be logical to sue a company for late buses?

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

I have to say that service is becoming worse. I got the 00:30 BxM2 last night. Bus was 20 minutes late after midnight! I called the depot and was told the B/O was stuck in traffic. The guy finally arrived (not on BusTime) and drove like he was on-time, and actually waited at stops like he was early. I said to myself this guy is 20 minutes late and is driving like this?? Got home in under an hour, but I am usually home in Riverdale a little after 01:00 at that time.

You think that's bad, the buses (primarily BM5) here are constantly late by 20+ minute, even though they enhanced the schedule giving 12-20 minutes extra of runtime. The 12:40 bus from 57 didnt arrive SCT until about 3:10 PM today (it is not a typo). Normal arrival time is about 1:41 PM. The bus behind it bunched with the bus that comes after (all this during the hourly headway period). What gives with the lateness, that justs discourages remaining and potential ridership.

 

Anyways, talking about the topic at hands, I'm 50-50 with the left turn signals. Sure, it would reduce the accidents which occur. However, that would lead to an increased amount of time stopped as well. Theres also the question of how much time would be given on the left turns.

[QM1to6Ave]

My issue is as follows: if you want to prevent these accidents, don't wait until after someone hits a pedestrian to punish them by arresting them. If NYPD wants to prevent these accidents, they need to proactively ticket people for making dangerous turns so they change peoples behavior before they hit someone. Even better, they should run a PSA about the safest way to approach a turn.

 

And quite honestly, the fact that only five pedestrian deaths last year were due to mta bus ops is really impressive, considering they are on the road much more than must people. The mta's safety message really does make a difference

 

And the union spokesman is correct. The dot should be making more protected turn intersections to reduce pedestrian hits. I've driven friends visiting from other countries, and they are horrified by the lack of protected turns we have here

[LTA1992]

Like it was said in the other threads, it just makes them look worse than ever because of their behavior in this protest, and not likely to get what they want.

I have a feeling the MTA might get sued soon and be taken to court because almost every bus is becoming later than they should be. But even if they are taken to court and the MTA is guilty, the practice of late buses is not gonna be solved so IMO, I'm not sure if this protest will solve or help anyone at all.

What are you talking about? These operators were protesting by STRICTLY following the rules. This (as a side effect) just shows the flaws of Vision Zero.

[Culver]

What are you talking about? These operators were protesting by STRICTLY following the rules. This (as a side effect) just shows the flaws of Vision Zero.

Yes, because following the rules and being on time at the same time is just physically impossible, gosh darn it. Responsibility is too hard. It's a bullshit, pathetic protest. It's the lowest form of childish bitch fits.

[MHV9218]

What are you talking about? These operators were protesting by STRICTLY following the rules. This (as a side effect) just shows the flaws of Vision Zero.

 

What flaws? Let's say the bus was late. Tough shit. Better than a dead body.

[DetSMART45]

Don't want to take the topic off-track, but it's sort-of how "pointless", to me, the whole "Courtesy Counts" campaign is.  How utterly STUPID do you have to be to actually follow "rules"???

Pedestrians are sort-of 'empowered', if you will, to do whatever they want.  If they decide to disrupt traffic, then oh well.  BUT...IF they're the person ON THE BUS getting held up, then all of a sudden they DON'T want other peds to be doing that (of course, though, when THEY want to do it, it's OK.)

WHY do people have to be REMINDED of traffic laws, or common courtesy?

LIFE is not all about YOU, it's how you make life with others.

HOW such a simple concept is lost on people is what should be concerning.  AND how hundreds of thousands (if not more) dollars to "enlighten" folks must be spent to get the point across.

 

--Thanks for listening, and now back to trolling. Respect still given to MHV and other forum regulars for their thoughts.

That is all.

[BreeddekalbL]

well i hope you alternative transit people are happy! drivers should NOT be arrested for an accident if there was no wrecklessness involved! you guys should not be dictating policy! 

http://transalt.org/news/releases/8186

[bobtehpanda]

well i hope you alternative transit people are happy! drivers should NOT be arrested for an accident if there was no wrecklessness involved! you guys should not be dictating policy! 

http://transalt.org/news/releases/8186

 

Not minding people who are in the crosswalk with the right of way is reckless, since they have the right of way. If the MTA is procuring vehicles that do not allow the driver to see pedestrians, then the TWU should be taking action against the MTA to reduce driver liability, not wish the problem away and pretend dead people aren't a problem.

 

We know that bus drivers and TOs both are deeply impacted and do not particularly enjoy hitting people. Why doesn't the TWU engage in some sort of constructive dialogue with the MTA, DOT, and other parties, instead of just trying to brush everything under the rug?

[BreeddekalbL]

i respectfully disagree this law does not define "due regard" clearly and the fact that allows for collars of bus drivers is a disaster since drivers were held up in the assembly that caved in to those people, hopefully the courts will toss this disaster.

[bobtehpanda]

i respectfully disagree this law does not define "due regard" clearly and the fact that allows for collars of bus drivers is a disaster since drivers were held up in the assembly that caved in to those people, hopefully the courts will toss this disaster.

 

"Bus drivers shouldn't be held responsible for illegal actions because they're bus drivers, and the legal standard is unreasonable even though it is a standard that has been used for many other laws for quite a while now. This law should be required to be hundreds of pages long and list every little thing that can be illegal, even though this is not normally done for most laws."

[MHV9218]

Yes, because following the rules and being on time at the same time is just physically impossible, gosh darn it. Responsibility is too hard. It's a bullshit, pathetic protest. It's the lowest form of childish bitch fits.

 

Hey, we're famous!

 

[BreeddekalbL]

this law is a disaster! besides my previous arguements and the fact that people are supporting these clowns!  also these people advocate for bikers who are the real problem in this city, and they also give these pedestrians the power to own the damn road.  these people don't even follow the rule of common sense!  this law needs to go.that is all

[Culver]

Hey, we're famous!

 

 

LOL. I'll demonize a bus driver, cab driver, or any other driver who drives like shit and hits a person. Not that difficult to not drive like a dick.

this law is a disaster! besides my previous arguements and the fact that people are supporting these clowns!  also these people advocate for bikers who are the real problem in this city, and they also give these pedestrians the power to own the damn road.  these people don't even follow the rule of common sense!  this law needs to go.that is all

This comment is the exact opposite of reality and common sense.

 

BTW, you're not "supporting" bus drivers. You're supporting the head of their union, who is apparently a total dick and prefers to bitch and moan for the sake of throwing a fit. This will be the last post I waste on this issue. Please grow up.

[BreeddekalbL]

well i hope you know that the police fire departments and the sanitation are exempt from this law

[bobtehpanda]

well i hope you know that the police fire departments and the sanitation are exempt from this law

 

Which is not actually true if you read the law, but whatever.

 

From Section 1.  Subchapter 3 of chapter 1 of title 19 of the administrative code of the City of New York: Right Of Way:

 

 

 

§ 19–190 Right of way. a. Except as provided in subdivision b of this section, any driver of a motor vehicle who fails to yield to a pedestrian or person riding a bicycle when such pedestrian or person has the right of way shall be guilty of a traffic infraction, which shall be punishable by a fine of not more than fifty dollars or imprisonment for not more than fifteen days or both such fine and imprisonment. In addition to or as an alternative to such penalty, such driver shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than one hundred dollars which may be recovered in a proceeding before the environmental control board. For purposes of this section, "motor vehicle" shall have the same meaning as in section one hundred twenty-five of the vehicle and traffic law.

 b. Except as provided in subdivision c of this section, any driver of a motor vehicle who violates subdivision a of this section and whose motor vehicle causes contact with a pedestrian or person riding a bicycle and thereby causes physical injury, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, which shall be punishable by a fine of not more than two hundred fifty dollars, or imprisonment for not more than thirty days or both such fine and imprisonment. In addition to or as an alternative to such penalty, such driver shall also be subject to a civil penalty of not more than two hundred fifty dollars which may be recovered in a proceeding before the environmental control board. For purposes of this section, "physical injury" shall have the same meaning as in section 10.00 of the penal law.

 

 c. It shall not be a violation of this section if the failure to yield and/or physical injury was not caused by the driver's failure to exercise due care.

 

 d. This section shall not apply to persons, teams, motor vehicles, and other equipment working on behalf of the city of New York, the state of New York or the federal government while actively engaged in work requiring the presence of a motor vehicle in a location that interferes with the right of way of a pedestrian or person riding a bicycle. Such persons, teams, motor vehicles, and other equipment shall proceed at all times during all phases of such work exercising due regard for the safety of all persons and consistent with all applicable laws, rules, and regulations. Nothing in this section shall relieve such persons or teams or such operators of motor vehicles or other equipment from the consequences of failure to exercise due care or the consequences of their reckless disregard for the safety of others.

 

There's nothing about an exemption for sanitation. In the case of FDNY and NYPD, if they are responding to emergencies, they already have the clearance to avoid the Right-Of-Way law, because they are already allowed to violate rights-of-way with their sirens on, whether it is for a vehicle, a cyclist, or a person. You have to pull over or stop for a police car or a fire truck with sirens on, because it's responding to an emergency. A bus driver can never do the things that officers or firefighters responding to an emergency with sirens on can do - they can't blow red lights, force drivers to pull over, or drive on the wrong side of the road at excessive speeds. Why should they be given the privilege to kill someone who already has the right-of-way?

 

There is a lot of unjustified anger surrounding this law, but half of its opponents have probably never actually read the damn thing.

[sssick]

LOL. I'll demonize a bus driver, cab driver, or any other driver who drives like shit and hits a person. Not that difficult to not drive like a dick.

 

This comment is the exact opposite of reality and common sense.

 

BTW, you're not "supporting" bus drivers. You're supporting the head of their union, who is apparently a total dick and prefers to bitch and moan for the sake of throwing a fit. This will be the last post I waste on this issue. Please grow up.

 

You obviously have never driven a bus.

 

Which MTA bus fatality are you referring to that the driver was driving like a "dick" or like "shit"?

 

Just last week I was making the right turn from 23rd street onto Park Ave South on the X1.  I pulled into the intersection and shut down all sides. No one can go around me on the right, left, or turn in front of me from the other side of 23rd st.  I waited until the light turned red and the pedestrian arrow was solid red.  I proceeded to make my turn at about 2-3mph after I checked for pedestrians. As I'm making the turn the lady in the front seat near the right window said someone was walking next to the bus.  I jammed on the brakes and the lady walking just looked up at me like I was wrong. 

 

If that lady hadn't said something I probably would have ran the pedestrian over because she was so close to the bus that I couldn't see her in any of my mirrors.  Should I have been arrested if I hit her? She was in the intersection.  

 

I think you are the one that needs to grow up and realize this isn't a perfect world and there are a lot of things that happen that are out of our control.  We shouldn't be arrested unless it is proven that we were acting reckless when the accident happened.

[Olegkha]

You obviously have never driven a bus.

 

Which MTA bus fatality are you referring to that the driver was driving like a "dick" or like "shit"?

 

Just last week I was making the right turn from 23rd street onto Park Ave South on the X1.  I pulled into the intersection and shut down all sides. No one can go around me on the right, left, or turn in front of me from the other side of 23rd st.  I waited until the light turned red and the pedestrian arrow was solid red.  I proceeded to make my turn at about 2-3mph after I checked for pedestrians. As I'm making the turn the lady in the front seat near the right window said someone was walking next to the bus.  I jammed on the brakes and the lady walking just looked up at me like I was wrong. 

 

If that lady hadn't said something I probably would have ran the pedestrian over because she was so close to the bus that I couldn't see her in any of my mirrors.  Should I have been arrested if I hit her? She was in the intersection.  

 

I think you are the one that needs to grow up and realize this isn't a perfect world and there are a lot of things that happen that are out of our control.  We shouldn't be arrested unless it is proven that we were acting reckless when the accident happened.

 

sssick: it is pointless to argue with idiots, so dont even waste your breath.

[Burrstone]

I think you are the one that needs to grow up and realize this isn't a perfect world and there are a lot of things that happen that are out of our control.  We shouldn't be arrested unless it is proven that we were acting reckless when the accident happened.

 

IMO drivers are being criminalized for an accident!  It's not like anyone is trying to kill anyone or even hit any pedestrian  So a driver never intends to hurt anyone but but hundreds are not considered criminals while 6 of were for doing the same thing just based on their injuries.

 

Not to get off topic but some pedestrians run into the intersection and are looking at their phone not paying attention.  "Vision zero" should be a two way street of responsibility!

 

The problem is pedestrians and vehicles have no business being in the intersection at the same time.  Most intersections you cannot turn because there are so many pedestrians in the crosswalk!  These walk/don't walk lights that count down or blink don't make pedestrians safer they make them dart into the crosswalk because they see the blinking light/timer from down the sidewalk and run because they don't want to wait through another light cycle. 

 

IMO the easy fix is to give pedestrians the do not cross while traffic is moving, then give pedestrians time to cross while traffic is not moving.

[BreeddekalbL]

I also think that those clowns at transitalt should be forced to drive in the simulator at zerega,   and i heard that another pedestrian was hit by an mta bus infront of trump tower because he ran out into the middle of the street and not at the crosswalk, happened on a BXM9 bus  and driver was arrested?!?!  (confirm or deny)

http://abc7ny.com/uncategorized/person-struck-by-mta-bus-on-fifth-avenue/924910/

[Cait Sith]

I also think that those clowns at transitalt should be forced to drive in the simulator at zerega,   and i heard that another pedestrian was hit by an mta bus infront of trump tower because he ran out into the middle of the street and not at the crosswalk, happened on a BXM9 bus  and driver was arrested?!?!  (confirm or deny)

http://abc7ny.com/uncategorized/person-struck-by-mta-bus-on-fifth-avenue/924910/

 

Operator is not at fault.....considering that it was not at a crosswalk....