Savino calls for subway, rail links for Staten Island with floating $3B

[LRG]

The north shore line is not coming back. Get used to it.

 

Hold your laughter, it's something actually being considered, not some makeshift dream by foamers.

[Tokkemon]

Hold your laughter, it's something actually being considered, not some makeshift dream by foamers.

 

"Considered"... in this economic climate? Yeah, sure.

[Roadcruiser1]

The reactivation of the North Shore Line as a heavy rail or a light rail line would only cost $400 million dollars in today's estimations. The West Shore Light rail would only be built in 2019, because the Bayonne Bridge would need to be raised 60 feet for harbor traffic. The estimated price is currently $1 billion dollars.

[NX Express]

The reactivation of the North Shore Line as a heavy rail or a light rail line would only cost $400 million dollars in todays estimations.

 

SAS anyone?

[LRG]

"Considered"... in this economic climate? Yeah, sure.

 

I'm just putting it out there. It's not a makeshift dream by rabid foamers, there was a meting about it a couple months ago.

[Roadcruiser1]

The North Shore Line basically still exist. Although some parts are crumbling most of the structure is still intact. The line isn't in a tunnel it's mostly at grade. Though recently North Shore residents have proposed elevating that section to open the waterfront. Though I have an idea to build pedestrian and street bridges over the current ROW to connect people to the Waterfront instead. It's cheaper then elevating the line.

 

A better idea which was featured in my map would be to make the North Shore ROW a Light Rail line. Since it uses it's own ROW the light rail cars can travel as fast as a subway car. Another idea featured in my map is to connect the North Shore Light Rail to the West Shore and branching it off on an Avenue to the Staten Island Mall.

 

The SIR doesn't have to be connected to the subway. It was just a proposal. If Staten Islanders don't want the subway then the existing Bay Ridge Branch could be reconverted into a passenger line joint operated by PATH/LIRR that would cross the narrows using a new bridge or tunnel, and run parallel to the Staten Island Expressway, and run on to NJ where it would stop at Newark Liberty International Airport. It would kill of the fear of crime heading to Staten Island while providing a way to Brooklyn. The fare would be the regular LIRR fare $5.00 one way.

[Roadcruiser1]

To reply to your post they want to send it there to encourage development of the West Shore.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

"Considered"... in this economic climate? Yeah, sure.

 

 

Money has already been set aside to do a study on it and since the rails are already in place they're wouldn't be much construction needed. In fact, I would say that it would be much more likely for that to be reborn than a subway. As much as some people want one, to be honest I just don't see the subway making that much of a difference time wise especially if it were to go over the Verrazano. If anything a fast ferry would be a better alternate. And again the main problem w/a subway here is the infrastructure. We have too much congestion as it is and too many narrow streets.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

SAS anyone?

 

Not to sound harsh, but can you come up w/something more creative? I would like to see something else besides the Staten Island Ferry... St. George has tons of history behind it. Surely you can do better.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The North Shore Line basically still exist. Although some parts are crumbling most of the structure is still intact. The line isn't in a tunnel it's mostly at grade. Though recently North Shore residents have proposed elevating that section to open the waterfront. Though I have an idea to build pedestrian and street bridges over the current ROW to connect people to the Waterfront instead. It's cheaper then elevating the line.

 

A better idea which was featured in my map would be to make the North Shore ROW a Light Rail line. Since it uses it's own ROW the light rail cars can travel as fast as a subway car. Another idea featured in my map is to connect the North Shore Light Rail to the West Shore and branching it off on an Avenue to the Staten Island Mall.

 

The SIR doesn't have to be connected to the subway. It was just a proposal. If Staten Islanders don't want the subway then the existing Bay Ridge Branch could be reconverted into a passenger line joint operated by PATH/LIRR that would cross the narrows using a new bridge or tunnel, and run parallel to the Staten Island Expressway, and run on to NJ where it would stop at Newark Liberty International Airport. It would kill of the fear of crime heading to Staten Island while providing a way to Brooklyn. The fare would be the regular LIRR fare $5.00 one way.

 

The only thing I see happening in the future is the rebirth of the rails on the North Shore.

[B35 via Church]

Because most of the low income areas you're referring to are on the North Shore and most of that is due to the housing projects that were forced down our throats and depressed areas like Port Richmond which has a large poor illegal immigrant population. Inspite of all of that, we still the highest median income out of all of the boroughs. You are right about the transportation too in that the poor areas of Staten Island are served decently by the local buses.

Quick...

 

name one suburban, well off area in the tri state area that has an abundance of public transportation options... and I'm not talking about a "downtown" area of any city that has suburban enclaves within it... I'm talking about the suburban area, itself...

 

Good luck finding that.

 

 

I mean we have a very large Mexican population in Port Richmond and most of them are illegal and don't speak English. Then you have the housing project people, many of whom aren't very educated either, so I don't know how having a subway here would create jobs for those people.

 

Yeah, I don't know about a subway being brought to SI necessarily creating jobs for people either... but it will bring SI residents TO their jobs...

 

I've been reading your posts in this thread, and it seems to me that you don't think that the subway would be useful... at all... in SI.... which leads me to say....

 

 

As far as the logic of the subway bringing in a "bad element", there are many parts of Manhattan that have low crime even though they are right near the subway. Parts of Brooklyn like Bay Ridge, Midwood, Downtown Brooklyn, and Park Slope are all safe areas, even though they have subway service.

Classic NIMBY argument....

 

They've been using it for years, and continue to use it today....

Garibaldi states that subways aren't wanted out there... put 2 & 2 together.

 

 

It brings a lot of riff raff to well-to-do areas on the South Shore. Many of us think that the fares should be re-instated at all stations there for that reason.

probably... but I'll tell you one thing... the LIRR aint free....

 

going by that theory, there would be no riff-raff out there in the Hamptons (including illegals).... of course, this ritzy picture is painted, that the rich are the only people to ever step foot out there in the south fork....

 

oh, if people only knew the underbelly of "The Hamptons".

 

 

Because there are NO HOUSING PROJECTS on the South Shore... If we had no housing projects on the North Shore, I'm willing to bet our crime would be lower than the South Shore. Parts of West Brighton where I live are very well-to-do and very safe, but our crime rates are inflated by the housing projects down by Castleton. To be honest, I don't go anywhere below Delafield Avenue. But just think about that... Housing projects on the very edge of West Brighton, Stapleton, Mariners Harbor, all on the North Shore, and none on the South Shore. Then think of the affluent areas like Emerson Hill, Grymes Hill and Todt Hill, which are all on the North Shore, take out the projects and see how much more affluent we'd be and how lower our crime rates would be compared to the South Shore. I'd say that much of the riff raff on the SIR comes from areas like Stapleton.

Come on....

 

Outside of criminals themselves (and corrupt politicians), who else wouldn't want their questionable/seedy areas cleaned up.... You can bring up any percievably "bad" area in a borough, wish that area be cleansed of crime, and make a case that you'd be living happily ever after as far as safety goes, so to speak....

 

That would be like me saying, if they cleaned up out there in ENY & Brownsville, those areas would be much better to reside in, than residing here in East Flatbush.... this isn't about bragging rights.... it shouldn't be about North Shore vs South Shore

[checkmatechamp13]

In theory, if the "bad element" were cleaned up from the North Shore, those people wouldn't be taking the SIR to cause trouble in the South Shore. In any case, the type of people to cause trouble are also the type of people to jump turnstiles, so putting a fare on the SIR wouldn't really solve too many problems.

 

Like I said, there are plenty of nice areas near the subway, so the idea that a subway would bring in a "bad element" doesn't work.

 

What a subway would bring is increased population density resulting from a demand for housing near the subway (in short, people would move out to SI because of an easy commute, so houses near the SIR would be knocked down to make room for apartment buildings). People might complain about "changing the character of their neighborhood", but the crime rate would remain fairly constant.

 

Think about it-all of the areas I listed have a bunch of apartment buildings and their crime rate is still fairly low. Even on Staten Island, there are a lot of apartment buildings in low-crime areas (along Victory Blvd near Silver Lake Park and near Hylan Blvd/Narrows Road South)

[LRG]

In theory, if the "bad element" were cleaned up from the North Shore, those people wouldn't be taking the SIR to cause trouble in the South Shore. In any case, the type of people to cause trouble are also the type of people to jump turnstiles, so putting a fare on the SIR wouldn't really solve too many problems.

 

Like I said, there are plenty of nice areas near the subway, so the idea that a subway would bring in a "bad element" doesn't work.

 

What a subway would bring is increased population density resulting from a demand for housing near the subway (in short, people would move out to SI because of an easy commute, so houses near the SIR would be knocked down to make room for apartment buildings). People might complain about "changing the character of their neighborhood", but the crime rate would remain fairly constant.

 

Think about it-all of the areas I listed have a bunch of apartment buildings and their crime rate is still fairly low. Even on Staten Island, there are a lot of apartment buildings in low-crime areas (along Victory Blvd near Silver Lake Park and near Hylan Blvd/Narrows Road South)

 

All true.

 

Tysens Lane and Hylan Boulevard would be another example.

[Roadcruiser1]

This is my second plan for the Staten Island Mass Transit Plan. The Staten Island Railway is intact, and the only thing that connects Staten Island besides the ferry to New York would be the PATH/LIRR joint operated railroad that crosses a new bridge across the narrows. It utilizes the Bay Ridge Branch which is capable of carrying four tracks. The fare would be the typical LIRR fare $5.00. It goes on to NJ, and Newark Liberty International Airport which would serve as a terminus for the line.

Another extension would be from NJ too that would feature the HBLR. The fare would be $2.10. It would run down the West Shore, and connect a new transfer to the SIR. The North Shore Line is reactivated as a light rail line, and would run down the West Shore with the HBLR, and branch off to the Staten Island Mall, and gains a transfer to the SIR too.

Thus unlike my original plan there is no subway extension. There is only an LIRR/PATH extension, and a Hudson Bergen Light Rail extension. Other services including the Staten Island Ferry would continue as normal.

[BJC]

There are some interesting visions for a future New York City by Gridlock Sam in this interesting article.

 

It seems like he shares some of ours:

• Subway to Staten Island (a connection from the at Hanover Square to Saint George or a connection the at 95th Street to Clifton)

 

• Reestablishment of the SIR North Shore Line and a new SIR West Shore Line

 

• Completion of the

 

• Extension of the to Broadway/West 125th Street, 161st Street or Co-Op City

 

• train extension to 34th Street/Eleventh Avenue

 

• Trains to planes; PATH to Newark Liberty; Spur off the to La Guardia via Sunnyside Yards; AirTrain from JFK linked to the

 

• Bus Rapid Transit in the LIE and Bruckner Expressway medians

 

• A new rail tunnel between New York and New Jersey (Gridlock Sam likes the to Secaucus Junction plan)

 

• The return of streetcars

 

The full story from City Limits: http://www.citylimits.org/conversations/122/the-new-new-york-transit

 

I guess they will keep on waiting...

 

And still we have the lowest crime rate out of all of the boroughs, so yes it still works because the crime is in isolated areas of Staten Island, and mainly in the areas where housing projects are.

 

I mean we have a very large Mexican population in Port Richmond and most of them are illegal and don't speak English. Then you have the housing project people, many of whom aren't very educated either, so I don't know how having a subway here would create jobs for those people.

 

ok....I know there's some people who live Tottenville or any other neighborhood along the south shore aren't educated...those are the same people that like throw eggs at buses too,right?? or like to drug race down their quiet street??

 

As far I know,most crime happen at Port Richmond when a white dude beat down a Mexican ass every other week.Have you heard that on the news this year.

 

Because there are NO HOUSING PROJECTS on the South Shore... If we had no housing projects on the North Shore, I'm willing to bet our crime would be lower than the South Shore. Parts of West Brighton where I live are very well-to-do and very safe, but our crime rates are inflated by the housing projects down by Castleton. To be honest, I don't go anywhere below Delafield Avenue. But just think about that... Housing projects on the very edge of West Brighton, Stapleton, Mariners Harbor, all on the North Shore, and none on the South Shore. Then think of the affluent areas like Emerson Hill, Grymes Hill and Todt Hill, which are all on the North Shore, take out the projects and see how much more affluent we'd be and how lower our crime rates would be compared to the South Shore. I'd say that much of the riff raff on the SIR comes from areas like Stapleton.

 

You're a funny dude....one day,you should live out in the projects.....I don't think you will like that,because you don't like to be around black people just like the time when you got on the BM 2 and saw the whole bus full of them.

[B35 via Church]

ok....I know there's some people who live Tottenville or any other neighborhood along the south shore aren't educated...those are the same people that like throw eggs at buses too,right?? or like to drug race down their quiet street??

 

 

 

As far I know,most crime happen at Port Richmond when a white dude beat down a Mexican ass every other week.Have you heard that on the news this year.

 

 

 

You're a funny dude....one day,you should live out in the projects.....I don't think you will like that,because you don't like to be around black people just like the time when you got on the BM 2 and saw the whole bus full of them.

 

I'm glad you brought up a few points...

 

- That's another little stigma that SI has, moreso than the other boroughs - Drag Racing.... I'm not sure that it still goes on today, but once upon a time, hell yeah cars would drag race along hylan av down there in the south shore... I definitely remember hearing mentions of having to do a crackdown on drag racing.... the war vets pkwy, father cap. blvd (before they spiffied it up out there) is another place where drag racing would take place...

 

- the crime that takes place against actual illegals (or those that supposedly "look like" their illegal - the racist undertone that got people pissed off at that johnqpine dude), by certain residents of a particular community.... that's the crime you will almost never hear about on the news.... Granted, illegals don't belong here in the first place, but that doesn't mean that we have to go beating them up, and/or picking them off (kill them) either....

 

most of the stories on channel 10 news (long island)... I mean, that's all you hear about on there... between some crime some "short hispanic man" in some LI village/town was involved in, or what some suit/politician did (or didn't) do....

 

- this idea that housing projects automatically equals crime:

 

as if there's no sense of community w/i them whatsoever.... I'm willing to say that, the majority of people that live in housing projects don't yearn to be there... it's that their finances aren't up there, where they can be part of larger, better off communities.... Only people glorifying the "project life" is the young misguided hoodlum (and the old stubborn ones too; crabs-in-the-barrel mentality)...

 

as if crime doesn't happen in areas where there are little to no project bldg's... I mean Camden, Irvington, Gary, and some of those cities out there in CA aren't as high crime & poverty ridden b/c of "the projects"...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I guess they will keep on waiting...

 

 

 

 

 

ok....I know there's some people who live Tottenville or any other neighborhood along the south shore aren't educated...those are the same people that like throw eggs at buses too,right?? or like to drug race down their quiet street??

 

As far I know,most crime happen at Port Richmond when a white dude beat down a Mexican ass every other week.Have you heard that on the news this year.

 

 

 

You're a funny dude....one day,you should live out in the projects.....I don't think you will like that,because you don't like to be around black people just like the time when you got on the BM 2 and saw the whole bus full of them.

 

 

I don't need to lie about crime on Staten Island... I live here and have been off and on for almost 10 years. Now as far as housing projects go, no, not all of them are crime ridden. Case in point are the Todt Hill projects. I wait for the X10 there and have never had any problems and it's always quiet. However, there are housing projects particularly in Stapleton, and down near Richmond Terrace that everyone knows are hotbeds for crime and drugs. As far as crime on the South Shore, yes there are drug problems down there too, mainly the wannabe teens. However, the majority of the crime on Staten Island does stem from the housing projects and that's a fact, not just me being some crazy racist.

 

 

As far as your BM2 statement, you're way off. There are blacks riding express buses, so that wasn't the reason for my comment. The reason I didn't like it is because I was mistaken in thinking that it went the same way as the BM1 and BM4 and when I realized that it didn't I was annoyed because it left me out of the way from where I was going.

 

And now why am I a "funny dude"? Because I'm simply stating the facts. Nothing more.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I guess they will keep on waiting...

 

 

 

 

 

ok....I know there's some people who live Tottenville or any other neighborhood along the south shore aren't educated...those are the same people that like throw eggs at buses too,right?? or like to drug race down their quiet street??

 

As far I know,most crime happen at Port Richmond when a white dude beat down a Mexican ass every other week.Have you heard that on the news this year.

 

 

You're a funny dude....one day,you should live out in the projects.....I don't think you will like that,because you don't like to be around black people just like the time when you got on the BM 2 and saw the whole bus full of them.

 

The only incident of a Mexican guy being beaten on Staten Island of late was the incident in Bulls Head. In fact, the majority of the hate crimes on Mexicans have been by black and hispanic youths, so let's get the facts straight before you go pulling the race card nonsense. Yeah and it's interesting how the media originally reported those incidents about blacks and hispanics beating up Mexicans and then became hush. Why? Because some of them were legitimate hate crimes and others were just bogus lies made up.

 

There have also still been incidents of drag racing on the island as well.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

In theory, if the "bad element" were cleaned up from the North Shore, those people wouldn't be taking the SIR to cause trouble in the South Shore. In any case, the type of people to cause trouble are also the type of people to jump turnstiles, so putting a fare on the SIR wouldn't really solve too many problems.

 

Like I said, there are plenty of nice areas near the subway, so the idea that a subway would bring in a "bad element" doesn't work.

 

What a subway would bring is increased population density resulting from a demand for housing near the subway (in short, people would move out to SI because of an easy commute, so houses near the SIR would be knocked down to make room for apartment buildings). People might complain about "changing the character of their neighborhood", but the crime rate would remain fairly constant.

 

Think about it-all of the areas I listed have a bunch of apartment buildings and their crime rate is still fairly low. Even on Staten Island, there are a lot of apartment buildings in low-crime areas (along Victory Blvd near Silver Lake Park and near Hylan Blvd/Narrows Road South)[/QUOTE]

 

Little do you know that the majority of those "apartments" along Victory Blvd near Silver Lake Park are condos or co-ops and I know this for a fact because I have considered moving there and checked out what was on the market. The other apartments that are for rent usually have strict giudelines for admitting people (i.e. income level, etc. etc.)

 

Furthermore, there is a clear correlation between increase in population and an increase in crime in most places.

 

And finally to get back on your support for a subway here, you and I know that is a TERRIBLE idea based simply on the fact that our roads cannot handle it. The streets here weren't built for large masses of people and in fact many street grids haven't changed for their original configuration and are extremely narrow. Even without the subway, we already have an overbuilding problem here, so that alone would make me say no to a subway.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm glad you brought up a few points...

 

- That's another little stigma that SI has, moreso than the other boroughs - Drag Racing.... I'm not sure that it still goes on today, but once upon a time, hell yeah cars would drag race along hylan av down there in the south shore... I definitely remember hearing mentions of having to do a crackdown on drag racing.... the war vets pkwy, father cap. blvd (before they spiffied it up out there) is another place where drag racing would take place...

 

- the crime that takes place against actual illegals (or those that supposedly "look like" their illegal - the racist undertone that got people pissed off at that johnqpine dude), by certain residents of a particular community.... that's the crime you will almost never hear about on the news.... Granted, illegals don't belong here in the first place, but that doesn't mean that we have to go beating them up, and/or picking them off (kill them) either....

 

most of the stories on channel 10 news (long island)... I mean, that's all you hear about on there... between some crime some "short hispanic man" in some LI village/town was involved in, or what some suit/politician did (or didn't) do....

 

- this idea that housing projects automatically equals crime:

 

as if there's no sense of community w/i them whatsoever.... I'm willing to say that, the majority of people that live in housing projects don't yearn to be there... it's that their finances aren't up there, where they can be part of larger, better off communities.... Only people glorifying the "project life" is the young misguided hoodlum (and the old stubborn ones too; crabs-in-the-barrel mentality)...

 

as if crime doesn't happen in areas where there are little to no project bldg's... I mean Camden, Irvington, Gary, and some of those cities out there in CA aren't as high crime & poverty ridden b/c of "the projects"...

 

 

You are right... Housing projects DON'T necessarily equal crime. The problem is that on Staten Island, they were poorly planned and essentially rammed down our throats and so we received all of the undesireables. For all of the great areas of Staten Island, there are some really crappy pockets, and many of them stem from areas with housing projects. Now there has been new houses put up near the beginning of West Brighton that have certain requirements and screening. That's what should've been done with the housing projects here and the crime rates around them would be a lot lower.

[LRG]

Didn't they tear down one group of projects in Staten Island a few years back and build private housing on the former property?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Didn't they tear down one group of projects in Staten Island a few years back and build private housing on the former property?

 

In fact that's what I'm referring to.

[LRG]

In fact that's what I'm referring to.

 

Okay, thanks.

[checkmatechamp13]

In theory, if the "bad element" were cleaned up from the North Shore, those people wouldn't be taking the SIR to cause trouble in the South Shore. In any case, the type of people to cause trouble are also the type of people to jump turnstiles, so putting a fare on the SIR wouldn't really solve too many problems.

 

Like I said, there are plenty of nice areas near the subway, so the idea that a subway would bring in a "bad element" doesn't work.

 

What a subway would bring is increased population density resulting from a demand for housing near the subway (in short, people would move out to SI because of an easy commute, so houses near the SIR would be knocked down to make room for apartment buildings). People might complain about "changing the character of their neighborhood", but the crime rate would remain fairly constant.

 

Think about it-all of the areas I listed have a bunch of apartment buildings and their crime rate is still fairly low. Even on Staten Island, there are a lot of apartment buildings in low-crime areas (along Victory Blvd near Silver Lake Park and near Hylan Blvd/Narrows Road South)[/QUOTE]

 

Little do you know that the majority of those "apartments" along Victory Blvd near Silver Lake Park are condos or co-ops and I know this for a fact because I have considered moving there and checked out what was on the market. The other apartments that are for rent usually have strict giudelines for admitting people (i.e. income level, etc. etc.)

 

Furthermore, there is a clear correlation between increase in population and an increase in crime in most places.

 

And finally to get back on your support for a subway here, you and I know that is a TERRIBLE idea based simply on the fact that our roads cannot handle it. The streets here weren't built for large masses of people and in fact many street grids haven't changed for their original configuration and are extremely narrow. Even without the subway, we already have an overbuilding problem here, so that alone would make me say no to a subway.

 

Is there really a correlation between density and crime? I just gave you examples of dense neighborhoods with low crime rates. Also, if everybody is worried that new apartment buildings will cause an "undesirable element" to move in, they can set up the guidelines that you described.

 

As far as the traffic goes, an traffic and population don't increase at the same rate. Generally, you'll find that a greater percentage of people living in apartment buildings don't own a vehicle. Think about it: More people=better transit=a lower percentage of people with cars.

 

Of course, I'm not denying that traffic will increase, but it won't be as much as you think.

 

You are right... Housing projects DON'T necessarily equal crime. The problem is that on Staten Island, they were poorly planned and essentially rammed down our throats and so we received all of the undesireables. For all of the great areas of Staten Island, there are some really crappy pockets, and many of them stem from areas with housing projects. Now there has been new houses put up near the beginning of West Brighton that have certain requirements and screening. That's what should've been done with the housing projects here and the crime rates around them would be a lot lower.

 

You have to realize that those people have to go somewhere. If they don't end up here, they'll end up living somewhere else. Personally, I don't think we have too many "undesirables" here, at least compared to the projects in the other boroughs. I've waited at bus stops in Mariners' Harbor and West Brighton (which are supposedly some of the "bad" projects). and never had a problem. I don't think I could say the same about a project in, say, Brownsville or ENY.

[Roadcruiser1]

Alright now can we go back to talking about my map, and transit plans to Staten Island instead of crime on Staten Island, and other areas. Thank You.