The Next NYC Subway

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Really.....stop focusing on the past, it's gone face it keep your head outta the pasts ass and focus on the future but come on be reasonable I mean really....your just a little (or alot i should say) out there

It's true that the past is the past and that there's no sense in dwelling on it. But let's be honest, with the loss of the Third Avenue El and other elevated lines and right-of-ways due to extremely short-sighted politicians and bureaucrats and modern-day NIMBYism, it means we have to start from scratch if we want to restore rail service to places that once had it. For that and for subway expansion to areas that don't currently have it, there will end up being only one option. Unfortunately, it is the most expensive option - building the subway lines underground.

[7LineFan]

That cross-section illustration is for Park Avenue in Manhattan, not the Bronx. In the Bronx, from Melrose to Fordham, Metro-North runs in an open cut in the middle of Park Avenue (yes, there is a Park Avenue in the south Bronx). So, in theory, a subway could be built above the railroad tracks. But they would have to be built on a structure tall enough to clear all the streets that intersect with Park. You would then have to figure out where to anchor that structure in order to make it stable. That is no easy (or inexpensive) task. Subway tracks cannot run adjacent to the railroad tracks as there is not enough room in the cut to do that. And even though the housing stock on Park Avenue in the south Bronx is a far cry from its counterparts in Manhattan, I doubt the City, the State or the Feds would pay money to have that housing demolished to make room for two subway tracks in the Metro-North right-of-way.

 

We've already settled this as impossible anyways. See here.

 

Yes, that's an apartment building.

[Roadcruiser1]

We could try to rebuild the Third Avenue Elevated in the Bronx, and have the run on it by elevating the in the Bronx. It would be a two tracked El in the Bronx. Plus the Third Avenue Elevated was torn down during 1975. I am sure most of the residents around there are familiar with El's. I am sure it would get approval up there.

[7LineFan]

We could try to rebuild the Third Avenue Elevated in the Bronx, and have the run on it by elevating the in the Bronx. It would be a two tracked El in the Bronx. Plus the Third Avenue Elevated was torn down during 1975. I am sure most of the residents around there are familiar with El's. I am sure it would get approval up there.

 

36 years ago. The people living there now may not be the same as the ones who lived there then.

[Joel Up Front]

NIMBY's (or in this case, NAMBY's) were the reason the 2nd and 3rd avenue els were torn down. Massive hindsight was why the 3rd Avenue El was also lost, because that was supposed to stay up until the SAS was built. Well, procrastination has its benefits, right?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

We've already settled this as impossible anyways. See here.

 

Yes, that's an apartment building.

Yes, no way we're getting around that thing. A Bronx section of the SAS will have to be built from scratch if it's going to go through the central Bronx..

[MikeGerald]

The removal of the Third Avenue El might seem like a grave sin from the point of view of transit fans, but from the MTA's point of view - it was a cost saving operation, and an operation in anticipation of the Second Avenue subway. Similar to the J-train in Queens the idea was to remove the elevated line, and then later build the transit line - the fact that such activities take a long time (and can be hampered by NIMBY's) is a factor later recognized.

 

The MTA in the 1970's was removing transit lines and parts that it could no longer maintain well. This was the days when graffiti covered almost all of the trains, the tracks and stations were in a high state of disrepair, and there was no money. The city's 1970's crisis, the burning of the Bronx, the huge amounts of abandoned property that became city-owned property - Ford To City Drop Dead - were all factors of that time. Even the building of the parts of the Second AVenue subway - build several parts in distant places - forcing the feds to pay for the rest - just did not work - and one can see the result today. The 63rd Street tunnel to "nowhere", the NIMBY's in Queens who killed the Queens Super-Express, the removal of the Culver Shuttles, Myrtle AVenue el, etc were all evidence of a really bad time in transit.

 

The use of buses as a replacement for subways, in considering the expensive available options, as simply the best that could be done under the circumstances. Building subways and rail lines is expensive. Before it used to be 100 million dollars for each mile of subway track - now we're talking about much more than that - rail is not cheap.

 

So lament the past, understand the past, and learn from the past - and then plan for the future.

 

Mike

[T to Dyre Avenue]

That's why you don't rip down infrastructure until replacement infrastructure is ready. Tearing down the Third Avenue El before the Second Avenue Subway was ready was a huge mistake. The city didn't tear down the Sixth Avenue, Ninth Avenue and Fulton Street els until after their replacements were ready. That was the right way to do it. For them to take down the Third Avenue El without its replacement subway ready for operation was just plain dumb.

[Fresh Pond]

That's why you don't rip down infrastructure until replacement infrastructure is ready. Tearing down the Third Avenue El before the Second Avenue Subway was ready was a huge mistake. The city didn't tear down the Sixth Avenue, Ninth Avenue and Fulton Street els until after their replacements were ready. That was the right way to do it. For them to take down the Third Avenue El without its replacement subway ready for operation was just plain dumb.

 

Those were torn down before the whole fiscal crisis of the 70's. Besides, back then, they had a "we're building this, f**k how you feel" mentality. That's why things were built a whole lot faster compared to now

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Those were torn down before the whole fiscal crisis of the 70's. Besides, back then, they had a "we're building this, f**k how you feel" mentality. That's why things were built a whole lot faster compared to now

The Bronx portion of the Third Avenue el from Gun Hill Road to 149th Street came down in 1973, which would indeed be around the time the city was well on the road to financial crisis. It would be two years later when the city pushed the panic button and Ford told them to drop dead and all that. Most of the Third Avenue (from 149th Street south in the Bronx and the whole Manhattan section) came down in 1955, 20 years before the city's finances bottomed out. The state-created NYCTA was running the whole system then and they made the decision to scrap the el without having the SAS ready to go. It was a reversal of the NYCTA's predecessor agency, the NYC Board of Transportation (now known as the NYC DOT) that made the decision in the 40s to get rid of the Second, Sixth and Ninth Avenue els and leave the one above Third Avenue there until the SAS opened.

 

I may be stating the obvious here, but I believe a combination of bureaucratic short-sightedness and "special interests" in 1955 played a role in bringing down the el before construction of its replacement subway even started. I also believe those same twin devils of bureaucratic short-sightedness and "special interests" conspired to keep the SAS construction from starting much sooner than it did. There sure was a "f**k how you feel" mentality, but it was directed at people who rode the el and the existing crowded subways. That mentality came from people who hated rail transportation in all its forms (Robert Moses) and special interest groups with the financial wherewithal to put pressure on spineless city politicians to do things their way.

[Grand Concourse]

The biggest advantages I see to running the to Bay Ridge are the transfers to all of the lines that cross Nassau St and the elimination of the late-night shuttle (It's pretty safe to assume the will run 24/7). But you'd have to lengthen the line platforms at Canal, Chambers and Fulton or run trains that are only 480 ft long. And what would you do with evening and weekend service?

 

Someone did say the platforms cold handle a 9-car train [when cars were 67' long]. Technically since it is a few stations, couldn't they lock out one car till they pass the Nassau st segment?

 

Well if the is 24/7, then weekends the would likely end at Whitehall. Middays it goes to 9th Av. People in Lower Manhattan would need to transfer to the or lines to go to Brooklyn.

Whitehall comes to mind, but there wouldn't be any Broadway-Fourth Avenue service that goes via Montague unless the ran through there.

 

Well middays [9th av] and rush hours [bay Pkwy] should not be an issue. Weekends, well people will need to transfer to other trains [especially at Canal].

[Vistausss]

"Technically since it is a few stations, couldn't they lock out one car till they pass the Nassau st segment?"

 

Of course. The LIRR also locks out cars frequently, so I don't see why the subway couldn't do that.

[Grand Concourse]

Plus I would probably say the 10 car marker should be one car length into the tunnel so the t/o can probably set his car to be locked out [if it is possible to do so].

[Art Vandelay]

In service lockouts would be ridiculous and absurd. If SAS were to take over the nassau line, the nassau line would get platforms at least 600 feet long.

[Grand Concourse]

But how would you fit the platforms at Fulton where the tracks are on top of each other? Plus didn't someone say that it would be hard to lengthen the platforms under the Municipal Building?

[NX Express]

Remember the confusion with the first 5 cars at South Ferry? This is similar.

[Vistausss]

In service lockouts would be ridiculous and absurd. If SAS were to take over the nassau line, the nassau line would get platforms at least 600 feet long.

 

If it is absurd to lockout cars in service, then why does the LIRR do that?

[Law]

If it is absurd to lockout cars in service, then why does the LIRR do that?

 

The Train exceeds platform length at some stations, such as Atlantic Terminal, where passengers wishing to exit(Actually they have to exit as it is the last stop) have to be in the first couple of cars.

[Rell]

The Train exceeds platform length at some stations, such as Atlantic Terminal, where passengers wishing to exit(Actually they have to exit as it is the last stop) have to be in the first couple of cars.

 

Isn't that the exact same point they were trying to make?

 

Anyways, it would be difficult because it's not a terminal (as South Ferry was, and Atlantic Term. (LIRR) is)

[Grand Concourse]

The Train exceeds platform length at some stations, such as Atlantic Terminal, where passengers wishing to exit(Actually they have to exit as it is the last stop) have to be in the first couple of cars.

 

Which shows that it is easier to lock out cars than to extend the platforms. I mean Broad St should be ok to do [unless it's too close to the river?]. I still don't know if it is possible to extend the platforms at Chambers and Fulton St. But at most it maybe one car locked out.

 

I mean if all car doors must open, then I guess they could extend the platform, but make it exit only at the narrow segments [no one can stand there - think Av H CI bound on the Brighton before the rehab].

[Wallyhorse]

That's why you don't rip down infrastructure until replacement infrastructure is ready. Tearing down the Third Avenue El before the Second Avenue Subway was ready was a huge mistake. The city didn't tear down the Sixth Avenue, Ninth Avenue and Fulton Street els until after their replacements were ready. That was the right way to do it. For them to take down the Third Avenue El without its replacement subway ready for operation was just plain dumb.

 

Except in that particular case, many of the neighborhoods east of the old El improved dramatically AFTER the El was torn down. There were notable exceptions that were always good, but a large chunk of that area improved dramatically afterwards (something my late mother, who grew up when the El was still there mentioned on many occasions).

 

That said, even if the 3rd Avenue El had NOT been torn down then, it would have had to undergo an extensive rehab (and possibly a complete rebuild) during the 1960s and '70s so it could handle the heavier IRT cars or in a complete rebuild built to conform to BMT/IND standards. One way or another, there would have been extensive work that would have had to have been done on the El if it hadn't been torn down, and the neighborhoods would not have improved like they did (to the point where the upper east side is now the most densely-populated area in the country).

 

Now, I'd be looking to re-build the El as a double deck, four-track line that would run its full route (with the Bronx portion also being that for the SAS) in the following manner:

 

Express trains would run the South Ferry branch that was the old route, joined by the locals at Chatam Square (where they were be a transfer to the if it gets that far). These trains would go to the Bronx along the old route.

 

Local trains would be the World Trade Center branch, operating from Liberty Place and Church Street (as part of the Fulton Transportation Center), with a stop at Park Row-Chambers (and a transfer to the (4)/(5)/(6)/(J)/(Z)) before joining the express at Chatam Square. These trains at 125th Street would turn west and head to 12th Avenue/Broadway, running parallel with an SAS that would also head there and terminate on a low elevated station there.

 

There would be only two points where it would be four tracks across: Chatam Square and between 110th and 125th Street so that crossovers between express and local can be done when G.O.'s are necessary to alter service.

 

The main features of this would be transfers to the ( and at Grand Street (and possibly at Bowery) as well as to the and at 14th Street, the (4)/(5)/(6)/(7)/(T) at 42nd, the (6)/(E)/(M)/(T) at 50th-53rd Streets and the (4)/(5)/(6)/(F)/(N)/®/(Q) at 60th-63rd Street, which would be the biggest transfer point on the east side before the express trains go non-stop to 125th like on CPW. There also would be numerous MetroCard-only transfers throughout the line.

 

While it would not be likely this line ever would get built, if done right, it could fit in with the rest of 3rd Avenue and be much quieter than the old version.

[EE Broadway Local]

Utica Avenue problem? Why not build an extension down Utica Avenue from Fulton Street toward Kings Plaza. Since this will be an extension of the IND. Fulton Street Subway, you could, maybe, have the serve Utica Avenue and extend thd , maybe, to Utica Avenue for local service (maybe placing it on 15 minute headways).

The whole point of this is to build a line in central Brooklyn to solve the Utica Avenue problem. LGA is not the focus.

[2Line1291]

IND Fulton Ave Line isn't in the best state to have the Utica Line branched from it since it's only limited to 8th Ave trains and the Cranberry Tunnel. I know 6th Ave trains can go down Fulton but it would require switching at Jay St which isn't the best idea. Thats why I always the down Utica is the best option since the bellmonths are already there.....

[Roadcruiser1]

Hmm I did propose a rush hour , and service at all times for the Utica Avenue Elevated. It would be two tracked, and would have a total of 6 stations.

[Grand Concourse]

IND Fulton Ave Line isn't in the best state to have the Utica Line branched from it since it's only limited to 8th Ave trains and the Cranberry Tunnel. I know 6th Ave trains can go down Fulton but it would require switching at Jay St which isn't the best idea. Thats why I always the down Utica is the best option since the bellmonths are already there.....

 

But you then limit the line to just A division cars. That would be a lack of forsight. It should still be connected to the Fulton IND line for the future SAS line.

But perhaps a compromise being the line is branched off from the Fulton IND [connected but seperate from the mainline for train moves], but is a shuttle line till the SAS reaches Brooklyn?