BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[Guest Charles]

And why are you so surprised?

There was that whole big mess a while ago about configuring QM15 and BM5 service along Woodhaven, so I wanted to check out for myself what offpeak ridership was really like. I'll try to get one of those weekend trips later on this month. Plus, I was surprised the cut those inbound QM21 trips and left the 15 alone, so I guess there's your reason.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

There was that whole big mess a while ago about configuring QM15 and BM5 service along Woodhaven, so I wanted to check out for myself what offpeak ridership was really like. I'll try to get one of those weekend trips later on this month. Plus, I was surprised the cut those inbound QM21 trips and left the 15 alone, so I guess there's your reason.

Yeah, for all of the b*tching that people do about express buses, they are watched very closely to ensure that they are being used, otherwise they are cut.  Local bus schedules are often revised maybe once a year.  Express bus schedules can be revised every 3 - 4 months.

[SevenEleven]

9874 on the A shuttle.

[Orion VII 4 Life]

9874 on the A shuttle.

Now? Damn!

[R32sdabest]

I saw some Orion V CNG's operating on the Q25/Q34 on Friday. The is really using whatevers left from these buses. After the train resumes normal service they will all be gone

Orion V CNG on the Q25/34?! I haven't seen that in a while!!! What time did you catch it?!

[SevenEleven]

Orion V CNG on the Q25/34?! I haven't seen that in a while!!! What time did you catch it?!

There was one this afternoon on the Q65.

[trainfan22]

There was that whole big mess a while ago about configuring QM15 and BM5 service along Woodhaven, so I wanted to check out for myself what offpeak ridership was really like. I'll try to get one of those weekend trips later on this month. Plus, I was surprised the cut those inbound QM21 trips and left the 15 alone, so I guess there's your reason.

I think the BM5 is the route with the weak off peak ridership, hence combining it with the QM15, The last inbound Bm5 leaves the SC Towers at like 12:30... basically has no inbound afternoon service like most of the other express buses that have off peak ridership, if they ever combine it with the Qm15 off peak everyone would still be seated on those MCI's comfortably I'd imagine.

 

But still... 8 people is still kinda weak, especially compared to the X1, 10, bxm7, etc. TA should really look into just buying regular transit buses with suburban seats for runs like that, and keep some MCI's around for the runs that really need them.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think the BM5 is the route with the weak off peak ridership, hence combining it with the QM15, The last inbound Bm5 leaves the SC Towers at like 12:30... basically has no inbound afternoon service like most of the other express buses that have off peak ridership, if they ever combine it with the Qm15 off peak everyone would still be seated on those MCI's comfortably I'd imagine.

 

But still... 8 people is still kinda weak, especially compared to the X1, 10, bxm7, etc. TA should really look into just buying regular transit buses with suburban seats for runs like that, and keep some MCI's around for the runs that really need them.

They would rather keep MCI's on the lines to ensure that there is no overcrowding.  Some routes can have hit or miss ridership and when it gets crowded the MCI's can handle the loads.  Even the X10 in the afternoon can run light, as can the BxM7 and X1.  

Edited May 14, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Grand Concourse]

I think the BM5 is the route with the weak off peak ridership, hence combining it with the QM15, The last inbound Bm5 leaves the SC Towers at like 12:30... basically has no inbound afternoon service like most of the other express buses that have off peak ridership, if they ever combine it with the Qm15 off peak everyone would still be seated on those MCI's comfortably I'd imagine.

 

But still... 8 people is still kinda weak, especially compared to the X1, 10, bxm7, etc. TA should really look into just buying regular transit buses with suburban seats for runs like that, and keep some MCI's around for the runs that really need them.

lol, maybe get the tlc to dispatch a limo for them. Better than sending a huge d4500 for just 8 people. That or maybe they should have those 'van buses' just for the really low use lines. I totally agree the other heavily demanding lines could use more buses. Lower use lines can keep their headways, but they don't need a bus that is barely 10-25% filled.

[Guest Charles]

I think the BM5 is the route with the weak off peak ridership, hence combining it with the QM15, The last inbound Bm5 leaves the SC Towers at like 12:30... basically has no inbound afternoon service like most of the other express buses that have off peak ridership, if they ever combine it with the Qm15 off peak everyone would still be seated on those MCI's comfortably I'd imagine.

 

But still... 8 people is still kinda weak, especially compared to the X1, 10, bxm7, etc. TA should really look into just buying regular transit buses with suburban seats for runs like that, and keep some MCI's around for the runs that really need them.

 

I see that you've never been one these routes, because then you would know that offpeak inbound QMs immediately turn into Queens-bound  trips once they hit Manhattan: For example, the 3:00 QM15 gets to 34/3 Av at around 3:45, driver stays at the stop for ~5 minutes, switches his destination sign to Lindenwood, and picks up passengers simultaneously as the few inbound riders get off the bus. I'd never known this was how they did it -- but seeing as this is the case, it's a really efficient way in that the perfect timing saves a run and riders in Queens have another option instead of having the bus wastefully deadheading to Manhattan.

 

They would rather keep MCI's on the lines to ensure that there is no overcrowding.  Some routes can have hit or miss ridership and when it gets crowded the MCI's can handle the loads.  Even the X10 in the afternoon can run light, as can the BxM7 and X1.  

Agree with keeping MCIs on the bus, but for the reason above. I'm gonna argue your point just a little here: the hit/miss ridership comes from the fact that these routes have (much) more frequent service, so you'd pretty much be waiting 20 minutes, tops for your next ride. Passenger fluctuation, therefore, would obviously increase. With the inbound QMs, I can guarantee there's going to be no overcrowding It's essentially there just for coverage and to function as another option. Drivers know they'll only pick up a handful of people per trip.

[Turbo19]

I think the BM5 is the route with the weak off peak ridership, hence combining it with the QM15, The last inbound Bm5 leaves the SC Towers at like 12:30... basically has no inbound afternoon service like most of the other express buses that have off peak ridership, if they ever combine it with the Qm15 off peak everyone would still be seated on those MCI's comfortably I'd imagine.

 

But still... 8 people is still kinda weak, especially compared to the X1, 10, bxm7, etc. TA should really look into just buying regular transit buses with suburban seats for runs like that, and keep some MCI's around for the runs that really need them.

It's very redundant for the MTA to use both transit buses and motor coach buses for express route operation. Currently the way the fleet is it works out well as the MCI's and Prevost's can be shifted around between routes at a depot, as well as being moved between depots. With two fleets that becomes less feasible, and thus less practical.  It's better to have one uniform fleet.

 

 

They would rather keep MCI's on the lines to ensure that there is no overcrowding.  Some routes can have hit or miss ridership and when it gets crowded the MCI's can handle the loads.  Even the X10 in the afternoon can run light, as can the BxM7 and X1.  

Exactly, which is why it's best to have one uniform fleet. One trip on the X1 will only garner 5 passengers, while another will garner 55. It's easier operations wise to just use one fleet.

 

 

lol, maybe get the tlc to dispatch a limo for them. Better than sending a huge d4500 for just 8 people. That or maybe they should have those 'van buses' just for the really low use lines. I totally agree the other heavily demanding lines could use more buses. Lower use lines can keep their headways, but they don't need a bus that is barely 10-25% filled.

Damn, you're telling me you'd pay $6.00 one-way to ride a cutaway every day? I can never see that happening.

 

Furthermore, if cutaways are being used only on select express trips, then they become useless elsewhere. You can't really throw a cutaway on a local route if needed. Meanwhile Eastchester had no problem using MCI's on the Bx23 & Q50.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

lol, maybe get the tlc to dispatch a limo for them. Better than sending a huge d4500 for just 8 people. That or maybe they should have those 'van buses' just for the really low use lines. I totally agree the other heavily demanding lines could use more buses. Lower use lines can keep their headways, but they don't need a bus that is barely 10-25% filled.

 

 

I see that you've never been one these routes, because then you would know that offpeak inbound QMs immediately turn into Queens-bound  trips once they hit Manhattan: For example, the 3:00 QM15 gets to 34/3 Av at around 3:45, driver stays at the stop for ~5 minutes, switches his destination sign to Lindenwood, and picks up passengers simultaneously as the few inbound riders get off the bus. I'd never known this was how they did it -- but seeing as this is the case, it's a really efficient way in that the perfect timing saves a run and riders in Queens have another option instead of having the bus wastefully deadheading to Manhattan.

 

Agree with keeping MCIs on the bus, but for the reason above. I'm gonna argue your point just a little here: the hit/miss ridership comes from the fact that these routes have (much) more frequent service, so you'd pretty much be waiting 20 minutes, tops for your next ride. Passenger fluctuation, therefore, would obviously increase. With the inbound QMs, I can guarantee there's going to be no overcrowding It's essentially there just for coverage and to function as another option. Drivers know they'll only pick up a handful of people per trip.

In Riverdale the bus can have 8 people one trip and be also SRO another.  The demographics here are such that you have college students, tourists and people that come up to visit that always makes it difficult to say how many people will be on a bus at any time.  You have the regulars as well, but everyone moves around.  Yesterday for example I took the BxM2 and it had a pretty decent load.  I've been shocked to see people travel in packs (literally).  One couple invites several friends to their apartment in Riverdale and bam, there's 6 people right there...

 

It's very redundant for the MTA to use both transit buses and motor coach buses for express route operation. Currently the way the fleet is it works out well as the MCI's and Prevost's can be shifted around between routes at a depot, as well as being moved between depots. With two fleets that becomes less feasible, and thus less practical.  It's better to have one uniform fleet.

 

 

Exactly, which is why it's best to have one uniform fleet. One trip on the X1 will only garner 5 passengers, while another will garner 55. It's easier operations wise to just use one fleet.

This is exactly why they use MCI's and Prevosts on the express bus routes because sometimes some depots become short and they need to borrow buses from another depot.  Having a mixture of smaller buses, MCI's and Prevosts creates an unnecessary problem. Then you have pissed passengers that have to be flagged because the buses are too small.  There are several depots that recently were short on buses.  Hell we've had quite a few buses put OOS in Yonkers and we borrowed a bus from Baisley of all places.  Now if Baisley had small buses we'd have a huge problem on our hands because a lot of our fleet is getting older and repairs are needed.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8

[trainfan22]

I see that you've never been one these routes, because then you would know that offpeak inbound QMs immediately turn into Queens-bound  trips once they hit Manhattan: For example, the 3:00 QM15 gets to 34/3 Av at around 3:45, driver stays at the stop for ~5 minutes, switches his destination sign to Lindenwood, and picks up passengers simultaneously as the few inbound riders get off the bus. I'd never known this was how they did it -- but seeing as this is the case, it's a really efficient way in that the perfect timing saves a run and riders in Queens have another option instead of having the bus wastefully deadheading to Manhattan.

 

Agree with keeping MCIs on the bus, but for the reason above. I'm gonna argue your point just a little here: the hit/miss ridership comes from the fact that these routes have (much) more frequent service, so you'd pretty much be waiting 20 minutes, tops for your next ride. Passenger fluctuation, therefore, would obviously increase. With the inbound QMs, I can guarantee there's going to be no overcrowding It's essentially there just for coverage and to function as another option. Drivers know they'll only pick up a handful of people per trip.

I have been on the BM5 before, I remember because I had one of the greatest bus rides ever the time I rode it, Orion CNG and the bus was late because of a power outage in Midtown, bus went like 65-70 in the LIE 

 

I also ridden the QM16 on two separate occasions, and seen those QM15s outbound during the PM Rush when I used to fan the SI expresses & BMs, they are well used during the PM rush.

 

As for your example, if the TA ever orders transit buses for the express routes I'm sure they have people to figure stuff like that out so the transit buses wouldn't end up on the runs that is well used and end up being SRO, like interline the off peak inbound QM15's with a 16/17 outbound run or something like that.

 

@ Turbo19 one of those MTS RTS test fleets was supposed to be suburbans so the TA must be considering the spitting the express fleet between transit and OTR buses if they planned to order a "test fleet" of 40 FT buses for the express routes. It worked just fine at SC when they had two express fleets AFAIK, I know some runs ALWAYS used the MCIs because of the amount of people that rode it. And the others was allowed to use whatever bus because both could seat everyone comfortably. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

As for your example, if the TA ever orders transit buses for the express routes I'm sure they have people to figure stuff like that out so the transit buses wouldn't end up on the runs that is well used and end up being SRO, like interline the off peak inbound QM15's with a 16/17 outbound run or something like that.

 

@ Turbo19 one of those MTS RTS test fleets was supposed to be suburbans so the TA must be considering the spitting the express fleet between transit and OTR buses if they planned to order a "test fleet" of 40 FT buses for the express routes. It worked just fine at SC when they had two express fleets AFAIK, I know some runs ALWAYS used the MCIs because of the amount of people that rode it. And the others was allowed to use whatever bus because both could seat everyone comfortably. 

Nope... People did not like having those Orions on the express buses because they were small, uncomfortable and inconvenient and I can attest to that.  In fact I remember the signs on the BM buses talking about how they were getting MCI's for that reason.  You can never predict what will happpen or when there will be bus shortages and some depots use their MCI's really hard (esp. in Queens) and have shortages so some depots wind up giving up their fleet.  The MCI's are a welcomed addition.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8

[trainfan22]

Nope... People did not like having those Orions on the express buses because they were small, uncomfortable and inconvenient and I can attest to that.  In fact I remember the signs on the BM buses talking about how they were getting MCI's for that reason.  You can never predict what will happpen or when there will be bus shortages and some depots use their MCI's really hard (esp. in Queens) and have shortages so some depots wind up giving up their fleet.  The MCI's are a welcomed addition.

If the TA ordered transit buses for the express routes they would be different than those Orions.

 

I ridden the suburban RTS before, it had the same seats as the MCIs, the only plus the MCI had over the RTS is its slightly quieter, but these engines in these new buses are so quiet noise wouldn't be a issue. if the TA ever ordered a LF bus it would have the same seats as the Prevosts/MCIs do, those PBL Orions express bus seats were kinda small, especially if two adults was sitting in the two seaters.

 

A Nova 40FT single door with suburban seats wouldn't be too bad, the engines are quiet and the ones with Allison transmissions runs smooth. Only thing I can see people complaining bout is the LF portion of the bus being too low to the ground, but like the local bus riders, they would get over it.

 

And the whole bus shortage thing is a silly reason to keep the entire express fleet 100% OTR, its not as an big deal you're making it out to be. Plus I'd imagine the TA will always have some MCIs stashed away in ECH storage in case such a shortage happened.

Edited May 14, 2013 by trainfan22

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If the TA ordered transit buses for the express routes they would be different than those Orions.

 

I ridden the suburban RTS before, it had the same seats as the MCIs, the only plus the MCI had over the RTS is its slightly quieter, but these engines in these new buses are so quiet noise wouldn't be a issue. if the TA ever ordered a LF bus it would have the same seats as the Prevosts/MCIs do, those PBL Orions express bus seats were kinda small, especially if two adults was sitting in the two seaters.

 

A Nova 40FT single door with suburban seats wouldn't be too bad, the engines are quiet and the ones with Allison transmissions runs smooth. Only thing I can see people complaining bout is the LF portion of the bus being too low to the ground, but like the local bus riders, they would get over it.

 

And the whole bus shortage thing is a silly reason to keep the entire express fleet 100% OTR, its not as an big deal you're making it out to be. Plus I'd imagine the TA will always have some MCIs stashed away in ECH storage in case such a shortage happened.

There is nothing silly about it.  Buses have to go in for maintenance, get into accidents and shortages happen, more often than you even know. It would be foolish to buy smaller buses and have passengers stranded simply because they don't have enough MCI's around.  This was a huge problem in the past and the end result was buses being MIA and passengers having long waits with no service and that's one reason why the decided to make this switch in the first place.  From a legal standpoint, the is not supposed to operate express buses with standees, which is another reason why they got MCI's and Prevosts.

 

Aside from that MCI's are built to withstand a lot of abuse from the highways and such and are far more practical.  I really don't see any advantage to getting smaller buses when all it would do is make service worse for express bus passengers.  You also don't factor in how many buses are scrapped that aren't replaced, nor can you predict how many buses will be completely lost, so it makes sense to have a uniform fleet.  Easier to maintain the buses and no worries about severe overcrowding in the event that buses can't be fixed fast enough to be put back into service since you can always get loaners from other depots that provide express bus service.   You also have to think about ridership growth.  While some routes have seen ridership drop, others have seen ridership growth, especially on Staten Island and an expansion of service requires more buses. Immediate expansion sometimes requires loaners to be provided. You'd be hindering service having a smaller fleet.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Grand Concourse]

If the TA ordered transit buses for the express routes they would be different than those Orions.

 

I ridden the suburban RTS before, it had the same seats as the MCIs, the only plus the MCI had over the RTS is its slightly quieter, but these engines in these new buses are so quiet noise wouldn't be a issue. if the TA ever ordered a LF bus it would have the same seats as the Prevosts/MCIs do, those PBL Orions express bus seats were kinda small, especially if two adults was sitting in the two seaters.

 

A Nova 40FT single door with suburban seats wouldn't be too bad, the engines are quiet and the ones with Allison transmissions runs smooth. Only thing I can see people complaining bout is the LF portion of the bus being too low to the ground, but like the local bus riders, they would get over it.

 

And the whole bus shortage thing is a silly reason to keep the entire express fleet 100% OTR, its not as an big deal you're making it out to be. Plus I'd imagine the TA will always have some MCIs stashed away in ECH storage in case such a shortage happened.

yup, you stated it correctly: The seats on the ex-pbls are narrower than the nyct ones. If those o5s didn't have the armrests, it'd be more comfortable. The only time i would ride in the 2 seaters is if the bus is nearly empty, otherwise i'm going for the bench seats.

As for a potentially shorter bus, as long as it is for the express bus routes and not shared with the local lines, i don't see a problem in ordering those. If some routes just don't have the demand for a d4500, then run a shorter bus and send the d4500s to depots that really needs them for their heavily demanding routes. And that way no runs would have to be cut or merged. Obviously it would mean another express bus fleet to deal with, but nothing that different now that there are prevosts around besides the usual d4500s.

Damn, you're telling me you'd pay $6.00 one-way to ride a cutaway every day? I can never see that happening.

 

Furthermore, if cutaways are being used only on select express trips, then they become useless elsewhere. You can't really throw a cutaway on a local route if needed. Meanwhile Eastchester had no problem using MCI's on the Bx23 & Q50.

i was being sarcastic, but i do think they could look into using shorter 40' buses instead of the longer buses they currently have for 'a few people'. If it keeps the runs the same without the need to merge/cut runs to force people to either leave earlier or to wait longer for the next bus, then why not look into it? It's not like replace a d4500 with some 30' bus or something that drastic Edited May 15, 2013 by Grand Concourse

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

4811, 4813-4814, 4816, 4818, 4820, 4822, 4833, 4834, 4838-4839, 4842, 4849, 4852, 4853, 4859, 4870, 4876, 4891, 4896

[Around the Horn]

4811, 4813-4814, 4816, 4818, 4820, 4822, 4833, 4834, 4838-4839, 4842, 4849, 4852, 4853, 4859, 4870, 4876, 4891, 4896

????

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

????

 

Nuthin...just my little Xcelsior update...

[Orion VII 4 Life]

There is nothing silly about it.  Buses have to go in for maintenance, get into accidents and shortages happen, more often than you even know. It would be foolish to buy smaller buses and have passengers stranded simply because they don't have enough MCI's around.  This was a huge problem in the past and the end result was buses being MIA and passengers having long waits with no service and that's one reason why the decided to make this switch in the first place.  From a legal standpoint, the is not supposed to operate express buses with standees, which is another reason why they got MCI's and Prevosts.

 

Aside from that MCI's are built to withstand a lot of abuse from the highways and such and are far more practical.  I really don't see any advantage to getting smaller buses when all it would do is make service worse for express bus passengers.  You also don't factor in how many buses are scrapped that aren't replaced, nor can you predict how many buses will be completely lost, so it makes sense to have a uniform fleet.  Easier to maintain the buses and no worries about severe overcrowding in the event that buses can't be fixed fast enough to be put back into service since you can always get loaners from other depots that provide express bus service.   You also have to think about ridership growth.  While some routes have seen ridership drop, others have seen ridership growth, especially on Staten Island and an expansion of service requires more buses. Immediate expansion sometimes requires loaners to be provided. You'd be hindering service having a smaller fleet.

If it's cheaper for the MTA, they can go with suburban seat transit buses on some of the express routes, and IMO it would make sense. Before the PBL takeover, there were VERY few MCIs in service where they are now at MTA Bus. For most of Brooklyn, much of Queens and some of the Bronx even, I don't see the need for an MCI when a suburban seat transit bus has the same seats and is cheaper to purchase (and operate). Look at NJT. Much of North Jersey (and South Jersey with runs to Philly), even parts further away from the city, have suburban seat NABI 416s and Neoplan artics on their city/commuter routes and they deal with it. The suburban NABIs have everything the MCIs have, overhead storage, personal lights/vents, and the whole 9 yards except for reclining seats, but the MTA can probably get those.

 

Also I've never heard a restriction that standees aren't allowed on express buses. NJT lets it happen all the time, hell out here people will stand on the MCIs on the 64/139 for well over 40 minutes to an hour even with buses coming every minute (and usually in bunches) during rush hour.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If it's cheaper for the MTA, they can go with suburban seat transit buses on some of the express routes, and IMO it would make sense. Before the PBL takeover, there were VERY few MCIs in service where they are now at MTA Bus. For most of Brooklyn, much of Queens and some of the Bronx even, I don't see the need for an MCI when a suburban seat transit bus has the same seats and is cheaper to purchase (and operate). Look at NJT. Much of North Jersey (and South Jersey with runs to Philly), even parts further away from the city, have suburban seat NABI 416s and Neoplan artics on their city/commuter routes and they deal with it. The suburban NABIs have everything the MCIs have, overhead storage, personal lights/vents, and the whole 9 yards except for reclining seats, but the MTA can probably get those.

 

Also I've never heard a restriction that standees aren't allowed on express buses. NJT lets it happen all the time, hell out here people will stand on the MCIs on the 64/139 for well over 40 minutes to an hour even with buses coming every minute (and usually in bunches) during rush hour.

NJT is not the ...

[R32sdabest]

There was one this afternoon on the Q65.

Im jealous because I can't catch any. Just on LaGuardia routes.

[SevenEleven]

4811, 4813-4814, 4816, 4818, 4820, 4822, 4833, 4834, 4838-4839, 4842, 4849, 4852, 4853, 4859, 4870, 4876, 4891, 4896

 

 

No book ends?

 

SLACKER!

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

No book ends?

 

SLACKER!

What you talking bout?