agar io Posted February 2, 2017 Share #3951 Posted February 2, 2017 According to the schedules, between 7:30 and 8:30 there are supposed to be 14 trains, 14 trains, and 21 trains passing through 125 St. I think the train could be increased to 24 tph without negatively affecting service, since the SAS now exists to take some relief off the local trains. SAS currently only helps the express trains by siphoning riders off at 86 St, preventing further delays. True, but it also helps the riders at 96, 77, and 68 St, in addition to the aforementioned at 86 St. Now only people west of 3 Av find it convenient to take the , instead of the entire UES. It could possibly help the gain 3 more tph in the peak, like you said. There could be 12 local and 12 express in the peak direction, similar to the service headways. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted February 2, 2017 Share #3952 Posted February 2, 2017 After giving this some thought, here is my idea on how to work Second Avenue to meet the growing demand: - extended to 71 Avenue on weekends - 96 Street to Coney Island - all times via Bridge - unchanged - route unchanged - weekdays - service extended to 95 Street during off-hours The reason behind shifting the to the Second Ave line is obvious, as is the keeping the current route of the . Under my proposal, the would run 24/7, with expanded service to match the current combined service levels of the and . On weekdays, it would run to Whitehall St as it currently does. Weekends and late nights, service would be extended to 95 Street to replace the , which would no longer run during these times. In regards to the oft-mentioned yard issue, if the can deadhead the entire length of the BMT Culver line to access Coney Island Yard, there's nothing preventing the from doing the same. To replace service in Queens, train service would run its full-length line 19/7. Looking at the upcoming Canarsie tunnel closure, I feel that riders will fight to retain that Myrtle Ave - 6th Avenue direct service after the construction work wraps up in 2020. Also, by running the in lieu of the , Queens Blvd local riders still retain their one-seat ride between Queens and Manhattan. Naturally, there are serious downsides to this. There's the lack of a direct yard for the expanded , which I briefly touched upon previously. That will add to the trains' mileage. Also, with the loss of train service, not only would the have to be beefed up to match service demands, it would force more riders to transfer at 57 Street due to a lack of Broadway express service on the Astoria line. However, I think these problems are outweighed by the overall benefits, which include more service along Second Ave, faster service on the Broadway local and the Queens Blvd local (of course, that's barring any construction-related slowdowns). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted February 2, 2017 Share #3953 Posted February 2, 2017 After giving this some thought, here is my idea on how to work Second Avenue to meet the growing demand: - extended to 71 Avenue on weekends - 96 Street to Coney Island - all times via Bridge - unchanged - route unchanged - weekdays - service extended to 95 Street during off-hours The reason behind shifting the to the Second Ave line is obvious, as is the keeping the current route of the . Under my proposal, the would run 24/7, with expanded service to match the current combined service levels of the and . On weekdays, it would run to Whitehall St as it currently does. Weekends and late nights, service would be extended to 95 Street to replace the , which would no longer run during these times. In regards to the oft-mentioned yard issue, if the can deadhead the entire length of the BMT Culver line to access Coney Island Yard, there's nothing preventing the from doing the same. To replace service in Queens, train service would run its full-length line 19/7. Looking at the upcoming Canarsie tunnel closure, I feel that riders will fight to retain that Myrtle Ave - 6th Avenue direct service after the construction work wraps up in 2020. Also, by running the in lieu of the , Queens Blvd local riders still retain their one-seat ride between Queens and Manhattan. Naturally, there are serious downsides to this. There's the lack of a direct yard for the expanded , which I briefly touched upon previously. That will add to the trains' mileage. Also, with the loss of train service, not only would the have to be beefed up to match service demands, it would force more riders to transfer at 57 Street due to a lack of Broadway express service on the Astoria line. However, I think these problems are outweighed by the overall benefits, which include more service along Second Ave, faster service on the Broadway local and the Queens Blvd local (of course, that's barring any construction-related slowdowns). This has been said before. Whitehall can't turn nearly enough trains to allow the to replace the . You'd have to change the (W)'s terminal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence St Posted February 2, 2017 Share #3954 Posted February 2, 2017 Why not switch the to Bay Ridge and the to Coney via West End? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted February 2, 2017 Share #3955 Posted February 2, 2017 Why not switch the to Bay Ridge and the to Coney via West End? Becuase why? Explain the need. Also, the would presumably be a local, giving West End riders longer rides to Manhattan. This is to say nothing of the tortured journey of trains using the Montague Street tubes through Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jemorie Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3956 Posted February 3, 2017 Naturally, there are serious downsides to this. There's the lack of a direct yard for the expanded , which I briefly touched upon previously. That will add to the trains' mileage. Also, with the loss of train service, not only would the have to be beefed up to match service demands, it would force more riders to transfer at 57 Street due to a lack of Broadway express service on the Astoria line. However, I think these problems are outweighed by the overall benefits, which include more service along Second Ave, faster service on the Broadway local and the Queens Blvd local (of course, that's barring any construction-related slowdowns). are you sure ? i don't think anybody on the Astoria line really cares if the train is local along the Broadway line to be honest because the Broadway express running time doesn't really make much of a difference as it is only five extra stops the makes and i don't think anybody on the Astoria line is going past chinatown or downtown Manhattan except for a small few for that matter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3957 Posted February 3, 2017 True, but it also helps the riders at 96, 77, and 68 St, in addition to the aforementioned at 86 St. Now only people west of 3 Av find it convenient to take the , instead of the entire UES. You can throw in 103rd Street into the mix as well (since somebody living by say, 103rd & 2nd can either walk west to the or south to the . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share #3958 Posted February 3, 2017 After giving this some thought, here is my idea on how to work Second Avenue to meet the growing demand: - extended to 71 Avenue on weekends - 96 Street to Coney Island - all times via Bridge - unchanged - route unchanged - weekdays - service extended to 95 Street during off-hours The reason behind shifting the to the Second Ave line is obvious, as is the keeping the current route of the . Under my proposal, the would run 24/7, with expanded service to match the current combined service levels of the and . On weekdays, it would run to Whitehall St as it currently does. Weekends and late nights, service would be extended to 95 Street to replace the , which would no longer run during these times. In regards to the oft-mentioned yard issue, if the can deadhead the entire length of the BMT Culver line to access Coney Island Yard, there's nothing preventing the from doing the same. To replace service in Queens, train service would run its full-length line 19/7. Looking at the upcoming Canarsie tunnel closure, I feel that riders will fight to retain that Myrtle Ave - 6th Avenue direct service after the construction work wraps up in 2020. Also, by running the in lieu of the , Queens Blvd local riders still retain their one-seat ride between Queens and Manhattan. Naturally, there are serious downsides to this. There's the lack of a direct yard for the expanded , which I briefly touched upon previously. That will add to the trains' mileage. Also, with the loss of train service, not only would the have to be beefed up to match service demands, it would force more riders to transfer at 57 Street due to a lack of Broadway express service on the Astoria line. However, I think these problems are outweighed by the overall benefits, which include more service along Second Ave, faster service on the Broadway local and the Queens Blvd local (of course, that's barring any construction-related slowdowns). The would be 2 cars shorter than the . It’s going to have to run more trains per hour to make up for it. This has been said before. Whitehall can't turn nearly enough trains Some trains would have to continue to 9 Avenue during rush hours. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3959 Posted February 3, 2017 Why not switch the to Bay Ridge and the to Coney via West End? Check out my post on this and Lance's subsequent reply in the Proposals/Ideas thread (those posts are back-to-back in that thread). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Line1291 Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3960 Posted February 3, 2017 Relating to the I was thinking of two options; 1. Truely pairing the . What I mean by this is sending the to up Second Ave with the to 125th ST lowkey hopefully they change their minds to send phase 2 to the Bronx. Of course the problem here is merging with the and what is going to replace the up CPW 2. Send the to 9th Ave or Bay Ridge via 4th Ave Local while the operates on a local/peak Express operation with the Brighton Local ending at Brighton Beach and the Brighton Express ending at Coney Island. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelestor Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3961 Posted February 3, 2017 After giving this some thought, here is my idea on how to work Second Avenue to meet the growing demand: - extended to 71 Avenue on weekends - 96 Street to Coney Island - all times via Bridge - unchanged - route unchanged - weekdays - service extended to 95 Street during off-hours Agreed that sending the up SAS is the simplest solution to reducing congestion on Broadway and increasing service to the UES. The Broadway Line has naturally higher demand than 6 Ave because of the transfers at Times Sq, Herald Sq, Union Sq, and Atlantic Ave, and the line isn't at true capacity because the takes up slots on both the local and express tracks. This means Broadway local service has to be reconfigured significantly. The becomes the full-time Astoria local, running every 5 minutes during middays and 4 minutes during rush hour. Since only half the trains can turn at Whitehall St, the other half will run into Brooklyn supplementing the . The ideal terminal is Bay Ridge, but if capacity there remains stuck at 10 tph, then 9th Ave would be used instead. One nice aspect of 9th Ave is that the Coney Island yard becomes directly accessible to the . I'm not too concerned about the lack of bridge service due to the presence of other lines. Weekday service remains unchanged. The real problem is the weekend and late night service. The current configuration with three services feeding into Broadway actually works quite well, but is thrown out with the following the up SAS. Losing the Broadway / QBL connection is not great, since riders definitely want Broadway over 6 Ave service on the weekends. The would be 2 cars shorter than the . It’s going to have to run more trains per hour to make up for it. Is the actually crowded on the weekends? I don't think 8 vs 10 cars would be a significant issue. Relating to the I was thinking of two options; The reorganization of the has been discussed before. The current service plan dates back to 2004, when the two part-time routes along CPW and Brighton were paired together. There's an argument to be made for streamlining Dekalb Ave by having the run down Brighton and sending the down 4 Ave, but it's not happening because Brighton riders prefer Broadway service. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryB Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3962 Posted February 3, 2017 Actually both 4Ave and Brighton riders prefer Broadway over 6ave, from my observation 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3963 Posted February 3, 2017 Is the actually crowded on the weekends? I don't think 8 vs 10 cars would be a significant issue. On Queens Blvd, yes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelestor Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3964 Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) Actually both 4Ave and Brighton riders prefer Broadway over 6ave, from my observation Everyone prefers Broadway, which is my point. Why replace the with the ? On Queens Blvd, yes. Well, running the and together wouldn't be too bad then, if the MTA can find the resources to do so. Edited February 3, 2017 by Caelestor 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share #3965 Posted February 3, 2017 Relating to the I was thinking of two options; 1. Truely pairing the . What I mean by this is sending the to up Second Ave with the to 125th ST lowkey hopefully they change their minds to send phase 2 to the Bronx. Of course the problem here is merging with the and what is going to replace the up CPW 2. Send the to 9th Ave or Bay Ridge via 4th Ave Local while the operates on a local/peak Express operation with the Brighton Local ending at Brighton Beach and the Brighton Express ending at Coney Island. You still have to figure out how to fit the and in with the . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3966 Posted February 3, 2017 The real problem is the weekend and late night service. The current configuration with three services feeding into Broadway actually works quite well, but is thrown out with the following the up SAS. Losing the Broadway / QBL connection is not great, since riders definitely want Broadway over 6 Ave service on the weekends. Hmmm. Could you get rid of the at night (and maybe on weekends too) and run the Astoria-CI local? Then you have 96th-CI exp (via Brighton) 71st - 95th lcl Ditmars-CI lcl (via Sea Beach) (maybe via bridge nights/weekends?) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share #3967 Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) The real problem is the weekend and late night service. The current configuration with three services feeding into Broadway actually works quite well, but is thrown out with the following the up SAS. Losing the Broadway / QBL connection is not great, since riders definitely want Broadway over 6 Ave service on the weekends. Run the service like Lance said. It doesn’t have to cost much during nights an weekends. I make some tweaks to Lance’s proposal, but it requires rehabilitation work at City Hall to create a usable terminal. With it, I suppose Astoria may get its 15 trains per hour. Every third train from Astoria would turn at City Hall instead of going to Bay Ridge which can turn 10 trains per hour anyway. Weekdays Forest Hills/Middle Village via Queens Boulevard local, 6 Avenue local, Jamaica local Upper East Side/Coney Island via Broadway express, Manhattan Bridge, 4 Avenue express, Sea Beach local Upper East Side/Coney Island via Broadway express, Manhattan Bridge, Brighton local Forest Hills/South Ferry or Forest Hills/City Hall via Queens Boulevard local, Broadway local Astoria/Bay Ridge or Astoria/City Hall via Astoria local, Broadway local, 4 Avenue local Weekends Forest Hills/Middle Village via Queens Boulevard local, 6 Avenue local, Jamaica local Upper East Side/Coney Island via Broadway express, Manhattan Bridge, 4 Avenue express, Sea Beach local Upper East Side/Coney Island via Broadway local, Manhattan Bridge, Brighton local (no service) via Queens Boulevard local, Broadway local (use the or instead) Astoria/Bay Ridge via Astoria local, Broadway local, 4 Avenue local Nights Lower East Side/Middle Village via Queens Boulevard local, 6 Avenue local, Jamaica local (transfer to the or to continue trip) South Ferry/Coney Island via Broadway local, Manhattan Bridge, 4 Avenue local, Sea Beach local (transfer to the or to continue trip) Upper East Side/Coney Island via Broadway local, Manhattan Bridge, Brighton local (no service) via Queens Boulevard local, Broadway local (use the or instead) Astoria/Bay Ridge via Astoria local, Broadway local, 4 Avenue local The formatting should make it abundantly clear when services change and how. It has been arranged for a minimal of confusion with a minimal amount of changes and never overserves for the time of day. Edited February 3, 2017 by CenSin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T to Dyre Avenue Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3968 Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) After giving this some thought, here is my idea on how to work Second Avenue to meet the growing demand: - extended to 71 Avenue on weekends - 96 Street to Coney Island - all times via Bridge - unchanged - route unchanged - weekdays - service extended to 95 Street during off-hours The reason behind shifting the to the Second Ave line is obvious, as is the keeping the current route of the . Under my proposal, the would run 24/7, with expanded service to match the current combined service levels of the and . On weekdays, it would run to Whitehall St as it currently does. Weekends and late nights, service would be extended to 95 Street to replace the , which would no longer run during these times. In regards to the oft-mentioned yard issue, if the can deadhead the entire length of the BMT Culver line to access Coney Island Yard, there's nothing preventing the from doing the same. To replace service in Queens, train service would run its full-length line 19/7. Looking at the upcoming Canarsie tunnel closure, I feel that riders will fight to retain that Myrtle Ave - 6th Avenue direct service after the construction work wraps up in 2020. Also, by running the in lieu of the , Queens Blvd local riders still retain their one-seat ride between Queens and Manhattan. Naturally, there are serious downsides to this. There's the lack of a direct yard for the expanded W, which I briefly touched upon previously. That will add to the trains' mileage. Also, with the loss of N train service, not only would the W have to be beefed up to match service demands, it would force more riders to transfer at 57 Street due to a lack of Broadway express service on the Astoria line. However, I think these problems are outweighed by the overall benefits, which include more service along Second Ave, faster service on the Broadway local and the Queens Blvd local (of course, that's barring any construction-related slowdowns). I think it's a workable solution to increase SAS service that will also help to address the heavier demand for the when the will be shut out of Manhattan. But the beefed-up won't be able to turn all of its trains at Whitehall (or Canal) during weekdays while the is running. Perhaps it might be easier to have the replace the in Brooklyn full time, and run the weekdays-only between 71st Ave and Whitehall only. Then deadhead trains to/from Coney Island Yard via the Sea Beach Line during off-peak hours as needed for maintenance and storage Edited February 3, 2017 by T to Dyre Avenue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T to Dyre Avenue Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3969 Posted February 3, 2017 Everyone prefers Broadway, which is my point. Why replace the with the ?But not everyone can have direct service to Broadway. Something has to run via 6th Ave. Not unless you run six different Broadway services on nothing less than 15-minute headways. Run the full-time like he said. It doesn’t have to cost much during nights an weekends. I make some tweaks to Lance’s proposal, but it requires rehabilitation work at City Hall to create a usable terminal. With it, I suppose Astoria may get its 15 trains per hour. Every third train from Astoria would turn at City Hall instead of going to Bay Ridge which can turn 10 trains per hour anyway. Weekdays Forest Hills/Middle Village via Queens Boulevard local, 6 Avenue local, Jamaica local Upper East Side/Coney Island via Broadway express, Manhattan Bridge, 4 Avenue express, Sea Beach local Upper East Side/Coney Island via Broadway express, Manhattan Bridge, Brighton local Forest Hills/South Ferry via Queens Boulevard local, Broadway local Astoria/Bay Ridge or Astoria/City Hall via Astoria local, Broadway local, 4 Avenue local Weekends Forest Hills/Middle Village via Queens Boulevard local, 6 Avenue local, Jamaica local Upper East Side/Coney Island via Broadway express, Manhattan Bridge, 4 Avenue express, Sea Beach local Upper East Side/Coney Island via Broadway local, Manhattan Bridge, Brighton local (no service) via Queens Boulevard local, Broadway local Astoria/Bay Ridge via Astoria local, Broadway local, 4 Avenue local Nights Lower East Side/Middle Village via Queens Boulevard local, 6 Avenue local, Jamaica local South Ferry/Coney Island via Broadway local, Manhattan Bridge, 4 Avenue local, Sea Beach local Upper East Side/Coney Island via Broadway local, Manhattan Bridge, Brighton local (no service) via Queens Boulevard local, Broadway local Astoria/Bay Ridge via Astoria local, Broadway local, 4 Avenue local The formatting should make it abundantly clear when services change and how. It has been arranged for a minimal of confusion with a minimal amount of changes and never overserves for the time of day.Clear and simple. And it addresses the additional crowding on 2nd Ave. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agar io Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3970 Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) Under my proposal, the would run 24/7, with expanded service to match the current combined service levels of the and . On weekdays, it would run to Whitehall St as it currently does. Weekends and late nights, service would be extended to 95 Street to replace the , which would no longer run during these times. In regards to the oft-mentioned yard issue, if the can deadhead the entire length of the BMT Culver line to access Coney Island Yard, there's nothing preventing the from doing the same. To replace service in Queens, train service would run its full-length line 19/7. Looking at the upcoming Canarsie tunnel closure, I feel that riders will fight to retain that Myrtle Ave - 6th Avenue direct service after the construction work wraps up in 2020. Also, by running the in lieu of the , Queens Blvd local riders still retain their one-seat ride between Queens and Manhattan. Not sure eliminating the on weekends would be a help to the QBL: 1. For one, it has no more direct service to Broadway on weekends, while it has 2 services to 6 Av. In case of the ubiquitous weekend construction, Broadway riders (like myself) would have to travel a long way, maybe to Herald Sq, to get a transfer from the QBL to the Broadway Line. 2. Also, QBL construction for CBTC means that there will be longer headways, with shorter trains (480 vs. 600 ft) while crowding gets worse. This will be especially true since riders will have to backtrack on the QBL local stations as well. If we do OPTO, that's even more undesirable. 3. The non-direct yard access won't be a problem, but the proposed route changes don't have particularly increased headways either. Right now, 95 St and Whitehall St can only turn a combined 20 tph (10 tph to 95 St, and 10 tph to Whitehall). This offers little benefits over the current setup since the current 4 Av Line, Broadway local tracks, and Astoria Line have virtually the same service frequency anyway, minus a few tph. 4. With the aforementioned bottleneck at 95 St, you can't add another local service to 4 Av unless it diverges at 36 St and goes to at least 9 Av. I think it's reasonable to send some more trains to 96 St and some more trains to Astoria, though. To address the 2 Av line crowding, I would maybe do Astoria-Whitehall at all times except nights, and all weekend & night trains to 96 St. Late nights, the and can be combined, but I would definitely not eliminate weekend service to the QBL. Edited February 3, 2017 by agar io 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3971 Posted February 3, 2017 (edited) [i made some changes to what I put above] Hmmm. Could you get rid of the at night (and maybe on weekends too) and run the Astoria-CI local? Then you have 96th-CI exp (via Sea Beach) weekdays 96th-CI exp (via Brighton) all times 71st - 95th lcl all times Ditmars-Whitehall/9th avenue lcl. Late nights/weekends extended to Coney Island (via Sea Beach) (maybe via bridge too?) IMH(and biased)O, my proposal is a lot simpler and easier than CenSin's. No city hall mess, and simpler service patterns. Edited February 3, 2017 by RR503 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3972 Posted February 3, 2017 Hmmm. Could you get rid of the at night (and maybe on weekends too) and run the Astoria-CI local? Then you have 96th-CI exp (via Brighton) 71st - 95th lcl Ditmars-CI lcl (via Sea Beach) (maybe via bridge nights/weekends?) I fully endorse this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agar io Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3973 Posted February 3, 2017 Hmmm. Could you get rid of the at night (and maybe on weekends too) and run the Astoria-CI local? ... Ditmars-CI lcl (via Sea Beach) (maybe via bridge nights/weekends?) That's what the already does now, running local on Broadway at nights and on weekends... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3F Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3974 Posted February 3, 2017 Why does 95 Street have such ridiculously low capacity? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYCTNostalgia Posted February 3, 2017 Share #3975 Posted February 3, 2017 If worse comes to worst, the R32s can go on the or (not that many non-transit enthusiasts would like it). I believe that R32's and R42's are banned from the because of OPTO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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