Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Trains on the do not run an average of 3 minutes apart; they're scheduled to run 15 TPH, exactly half of QBL's 30TPH capacity. And I say this as someone who used to take the everyday.

Really? Because they sure as hell run like that sometimes Northbound.  You can see a good 4 or 5 trains while waiting for one or train during rush hour.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Caelestor]

Trains on the do not run an average of 3 minutes apart; they're scheduled to run 15 TPH, exactly half of QBL's 30TPH capacity. And I say this as someone who used to take the everyday.

 

In theory, the should be running every 4 minutes along with the which runs at the same headways. The issue is that for various reasons trains get delayed and/or bunched together all the time, so gaps are more like every 2 or 8 minutes on bad days, and trains get overcrowded. (Speaking from personal experience.)

 

On that note, the 63 St tunnel is only running at 50 percent capacity at best, and the plan should be to add a new service through the tunnel once capacity on SAS Phase 3 and QBL / QBL bypass is available.

[Italianstallion]

When you say  "BTW, most new subway lines make buses redundant", what should one conclude?

 

Merely a statement of fact. No desire to cut needed buses.

Not really. The 63 Street tunnel isn’t even at 50% capacity. Provisions are in place for another branch in Queens. The Astoria and Flushing lines also have provisions for extension from their northern termini. A lot could be added done without another East River tunnel or trunk line.

 

Astoria and Flushing line have such provisions? How? Where? News to me.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Merely a statement of fact. No desire to cut needed buses.

 

How exactly is it a fact?  If that were the case, the buses wouldn't see any use.

[agar io]

Astoria and Flushing line have such provisions? How? Where? News to me.

 

Since Astoria is on an elevated structure, it could be extended relatively easily. Unlike other terminals like 242 St or Woodlawn, the tracks aren't obstructed by any station houses; only a billboard stands in the way. The tracks go right up to the billboard's edge. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7756192,-73.9113722,3a,75y,48.13h,102.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdzunQPlci4ml0P0-V9PUYA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)

 

At Main St, there used to be trackways east of the end of the platforms, which were either covered up or filled in after the station was renovated in 1999 and the new Lippmann Plaza entrance was built.

[CenSin]

Astoria and Flushing line have such provisions? How? Where? News to me.

The way the the Ditmars Boulevard station was designed, the line was meant to make a turn. It is similar to Utica Avenue on the Eastern Parkway Line. The line was meant to be extended along Utica Avenue, which meant the station itself had to leave room for the curve onto Utica Avenue.

[checkmatechamp13]

How exactly is it a fact?  If that were the case, the buses wouldn't see any use.

 

I think you're confusing "redundant" with unnecessary.

 

Redundancy isn't a bad thing. Here's a couple of posts that go into detail:

 

http://capntransit.blogspot.com/2009/05/redundancy-and-northeast-corridor.html

 

http://capntransit.blogspot.com/2009/05/in-praise-of-redundancy.html

 

Lines like the B25, Q56, Bx1/2, etc are all redundant with the subway lines they run over/under, but that doesn't mean they're unnecessary.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think you're confusing "redundant" with unnecessary.

 

Redundancy isn't a bad thing. Here's a couple of posts that go into detail:

 

http://capntransit.blogspot.com/2009/05/redundancy-and-northeast-corridor.html

 

http://capntransit.blogspot.com/2009/05/in-praise-of-redundancy.html

 

Lines like the B25, Q56, Bx1/2, etc are all redundant with the subway lines they run over/under, but that doesn't mean they're unnecessary.

No confusion. He made a comment and I'm asking him to clarify...

[IAlam]

Trains on the do not run an average of 3 minutes apart; they're scheduled to run 15 TPH, exactly half of QBL's 30TPH capacity. And I say this as someone who used to take the everyday.

 

 

Really? Because they sure as hell run like that sometimes Northbound.  You can see a good 4 or 5 trains while waiting for one or train during rush hour.

 

 

In theory, the should be running every 4 minutes along with the which runs at the same headways. The issue is that for various reasons trains get delayed and/or bunched together all the time, so gaps are more like every 2 or 8 minutes on bad days, and trains get overcrowded. (Speaking from personal experience.)

 

On that note, the 63 St tunnel is only running at 50 percent capacity at best, and the plan should be to add a new service through the tunnel once capacity on SAS Phase 3 and QBL / QBL bypass is available.

 

Actual vs Scheduled they may be scheduled every 4 min but in actuality If you mis an train you really don't wait longer than 3 for the next. The exception when 2 's come back to back.

[Italianstallion]

The way the the Ditmars Boulevard station was designed, the line was meant to make a turn. It is similar to Utica Avenue on the Eastern Parkway Line. The line was meant to be extended along Utica Avenue, which meant the station itself had to leave room for the curve onto Utica Avenue.

 

No way it can curve east onto Ditmars without demolishing several buildings on the corner. The best extension would be straight up 31st to the ConEd plant, etc., but that has been torpedoed by Nimbys; in fact, any turn onto Ditmars would be a non-starter as well because of all the nightlife there now.

[Mtatransit]

No way it can curve east onto Ditmars without demolishing several buildings on the corner. The best extension would be straight up 31st to the ConEd plant, etc., but that has been torpedoed by Nimbys; in fact, any turn onto Ditmars would be a non-starter as well because of all the nightlife there now.

It was designed without the ancitipation that the area will be built up to the way it has. Queens was farmland when the els were built.

[agar io]

It was designed without the ancitipation that the area will be built up to the way it has. Queens was farmland when the els were built.

Actually, the el can still be extended, even onto Ditmars, if there is a sharp right turn like the one east of Crescent St . With a really sharp turn, only the TD Bank at the southeast corner of 31st and Ditmars would need to be demolished. Of course, with current sentiments, the el would never be extended, not even to the north to 20th Av.

[Wallyhorse]

Actually, the el can still be extended, even onto Ditmars, if there is a sharp right turn like the one east of Crescent St . With a really sharp turn, only the TD Bank at the southeast corner of 31st and Ditmars would need to be demolished. Of course, with current sentiments, the el would never be extended, not even to the north to 20th Av.

My response to this is in the Proposals/Ideas Thread.

[HenryB]

I don't think and could take more people, unfortunately. Otherwise it is a good idea.

Maybe that's also the reason why LGA AirTrain is not connecting to Astoria line??

[Caelestor]

I don't think and could take more people, unfortunately. Otherwise it is a good idea.

Maybe that's also the reason why LGA AirTrain is not connecting to Astoria line??

 

The idea is that with a new terminal, the would run 5 additional tph for a 33 percent capacity. 

[SoulAce Transport]

What if you ran SAS under Third Avenue in the Bronx up to Tremont Avenue then turn it east under Tremont Park to make it a crosstown to Throggs Neck? Or you can turn it at Fordham and make it a Fordham/Pelham Parkway crosstown to Co-op City.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

Edited January 29, 2017 by SoulAce Transport

[CenSin]

The idea is that with a new terminal, the would run 5 additional tph for a 33 percent capacity.

Just 1 new station for the Astoria Line with a decently designed layout would make a good enough terminal that the extra wouldn’t have to go to 96 Street or 125 Street.

 

Turning east at Ditmars Boulevard, the line sould make a stop at Steinway Street/Ditmars Boulevard, 82 Street/Grand Central Parkway, and 92 Street/Grand Central Parkway (LGA). The airport grounds has enough real estate to build a generous terminal. These stations are placed at intersections for maximizing service to the surrounding neighborhood since it seems that it is segregated from the neighborhoods to the south by the highways cutting through.

[R42N]

Just 1 new station for the Astoria Line with a decently designed layout would make a good enough terminal that the extra wouldn’t have to go to 96 Street or 125 Street.

 

Turning east at Ditmars Boulevard, the line sould make a stop at Steinway Street/Ditmars Boulevard, 82 Street/Grand Central Parkway, and 92 Street/Grand Central Parkway (LGA). The airport grounds has enough real estate to build a generous terminal. These stations are placed at intersections for maximizing service to the surrounding neighborhood since it seems that it is segregated from the neighborhoods to the south by the highways cutting through.

 

 

There is no way in hell that line is ever going to be built. Community opposition is way to big on that here, it would ruin the town. Not to mention it’s extremely difficult do build elevated (especially over residential) these days. 

 

Also, those 3-4 trains don’t have to branch off to 96st, they could easily go up to Queensboro Plaza and short-turn there on the Astoria Express Tracks, which would provide connections to the , , at Lex/59th and the at Queensboro Plaza, just like trains did back in the 1980s. 

 

However, as someone told me in the proposals thread, the only thing that is preventing that is the fact that those extra trains are stored in the layup tracks north of 96st. 

[CenSin]

Also, those 3-4 trains don’t have to branch off to 96st, they could easily go up to Queensboro Plaza and short-turn there on the Astoria Express Tracks, which would provide connections to the , , at Lex/59th and the at Queensboro Plaza, just like trains did back in the 1980s.

It was also mentioned that you cannot short-turn at Queensboro Plaza without decreasing capacity. Trains have to be emptied first, and that would lower throughput through the station, defeating the point of short-turning (which is to increase throughput).

[Around the Horn]

There is no way in hell that line is ever going to be built. Community opposition is way to big on that here, it would ruin the town. Not to mention it’s extremely difficult do build elevated (especially over residential) these days. 

 

Also, those 3-4 trains don’t have to branch off to 96st, they could easily go up to Queensboro Plaza and short-turn there on the Astoria Express Tracks, which would provide connections to the , , at Lex/59th and the at Queensboro Plaza, just like trains did back in the 1980s. 

 

However, as someone told me in the proposals thread, the only thing that is preventing that is the fact that those extra trains are stored in the layup tracks north of 96st. 

 

There is not enough capacity in the 60th Street tunnel to fit the extra 3-4  trains in addition to the      trains that already use the tunnel.

[Mysterious2train]

There is no way in hell that line is ever going to be built. Community opposition is way to big on that here, it would ruin the town. Not to mention it’s extremely difficult do build elevated (especially over residential) these days. 

 

Also, those 3-4 trains don’t have to branch off to 96st, they could easily go up to Queensboro Plaza and short-turn there on the Astoria Express Tracks, which would provide connections to the , , at Lex/59th and the at Queensboro Plaza, just like trains did back in the 1980s. 

 

However, as someone told me in the proposals thread, the only thing that is preventing that is the fact that those extra trains are stored in the layup tracks north of 96st. 

 

IINM only one or two of the trains to 96th are stored in the tail tracks. The rest just turn around and go back to Brooklyn.

 

There is not enough capacity in the 60th Street tunnel to fit the extra 3-4  trains in addition to the      trains that already use the tunnel.

 

This, and also Second Avenue makes good use of the extra few trains. 

[Fresh Pond]

 

 

Just 1 new station for the Astoria Line with a decently designed layout would make a good enough terminal that the extra wouldn’t have to go to 96 Street or 125 Street.

 

Turning east at Ditmars Boulevard, the line sould make a stop at Steinway Street/Ditmars Boulevard, 82 Street/Grand Central Parkway, and 92 Street/Grand Central Parkway (LGA). The airport grounds has enough real estate to build a generous terminal. These stations are placed at intersections for maximizing service to the surrounding neighborhood since it seems that it is segregated from the neighborhoods to the south by the highways cutting through.

You would be interfering with air traffic. One of the runways landing approach cuts across 82 St and 23 Av from SW to NE (hence the "parks" over there called LGA Landing Lights). At that point, planes are low enough as it is, low enough where you can clearly read anything on the underside of the plane. The streetlights along the GCP are a lot lower for that same reason.

[IAlam]

You would be interfering with air traffic. One of the runways landing approach cuts across 82 St and 23 Av from SW to NE (hence the "parks" over there called LGA Landing Lights). At that point, planes are low enough as it is, low enough where you can clearly read anything on the underside of the plane. The streetlights along the GCP are a lot lower for that same reason.

As about to say the only way it's possible to have an Air train there is if it's under ground. 

[agar io]

As about to say the only way it's possible to have an Air train there is if it's under ground. 

That, or it could be integrated within the new terminals and run at about ground level along the GCP.

[Italianstallion]

That, or it could be integrated within the new terminals and run at about ground level along the GCP.

 

Yes, only way a train could run from anywhere in Astoria to LGA is to run at ground level or underground where the GCP crosses in front of the runway.