Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Bosco]

It's something more like 9-21 Sts. IMO, that's actually perfect, because if you really wanted to you could build an extension to Brooklyn from those pocket tracks without royally screwing up SAS service.

 

My guess is that would be the plan assuming the MTA gets the money to do it (and as is evident from the impending train shutdown, it's needed badly).  But we are getting ahead of ourselves.

 

I have to look back at the plans, but would it be possible to make 2 island platforms at 14 Street?

[bobtehpanda]

My guess is that would be the plan assuming the MTA gets the money to do it (and as is evident from the impending train shutdown, it's needed badly).  But we are getting ahead of ourselves.

 

I have to look back at the plans, but would it be possible to make 2 island platforms at 14 Street?

 

I believe the storage tracks will run underneath. You could conceivably just build the lower level platforms City Hall style.

[Italianstallion]

like sending the to Starrett City because you'd delay the line with the trains merging)

 

 

 

 

The way to serve Starrett City is via the 3 from New Lots. Extend the line through the subway yard, then over the local streets through the  industrialized area into the Spring Creek mall, then west into Starrett City.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Unless you reconfigure Court Street or Jay Street–Metro Tech to become the SAS terminus (at least until DeKalb is figured out).

Both of those station platforms are in deep tunnels where the stops. It would be extremely expensive to retrofit them to terminate or V trains at either one. It's easier and probably cheaper to connect the Montague tunnel track to the Fulton St Line in between the Court and Jay stations, then tie the connecting tracks into the Fulton St local tracks between the Transit Museum and Hoyt-Schermerhorn, then have the or V run as the Fulton St Local train, which in turn would allow the to go express. Edited July 8, 2017 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Eric B]

Isn't the Manhattan Bride Connection from Nassau to the bridge sealed up?

 

Yup.  I think the only bell mouth that still exists is the former connection from the BMT Broadway Line to Brooklyn (now visible from Brooklyn-bound trains just past Grand St.

 

Not sealed up; just having the track connection removed. This is seen from the Bway side, and the former Bway alignment is what's seen on the 6th Ave. side.

[East New York]

SAS Phase 2 is officially a go and allocated to the current and next Capital Programs.... Complete details coming tomorrow.

[LTA1992]

Any sensible organization with actual intent to properly expand would have had the ball rolling when Phase I was 2/3 of the way through.

 

With actual construction beginning as Phase I was wrapping up.

[Union Tpke]

SAS Phase 2 is officially a go and allocated to the current and next Capital Programs.... Complete details coming tomorrow.

 

That is good news. Did the Feds provide any money? While I do wish that the line would go to 149th in the Bronx, this is better than nothing.

[bobtehpanda]

That is good news. Did the Feds provide any money? While I do wish that the line would go to 149th in the Bronx, this is better than nothing.

 

This is, generally speaking, not how federal applications for money work. All federal applications for programs like New Starts are public.

[Around the Horn]

SAS Phase 2 is officially a go and allocated to the current and next Capital Programs.... Complete details coming tomorrow.

Well someone's gotta be the one to ask this: Have you heard anything about Phase 3?

[BreeddekalbL]

SAS Phase 2 is officially a go and allocated to the current and next Capital Programs.... Complete details coming tomorrow.

 

will phase 2 still have it's storage and bronx provisions?

Edited July 12, 2017 by BreeddekalbL

[Union Tpke]

This is, generally speaking, not how federal applications for money work. All federal applications for programs like New Starts are public.

 

I know. Did the Feds, as part of New Starts, provide the 70% of money needed for the project?

[Mysterious2train]

will phase 2 still have it's storage and bronx provisions?

 

We already know from the committee meetings that the storage tracks on 125th St from Park Avenue to 5th Avenue are still planned. As for provisions for a Bronx, they initially considered either building bellmouths at Second Avenue and 122nd St or building additional storage tracks all the way up to Second Avenue and 129th St. Looking at the rendering, it looks like they decided to not build the extra storage tracks and are just going to put bellmouths at 122nd St instead. 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Mysterious2train

[CenSin]

We already know

I’m amused that they list this as a benefit of phase 2:

 

• Provides for future connection to the Bronx

…instead of actually building it.

[Mysterious2train]

Well someone's gotta be the one to ask this: Have you heard anything about Phase 3?

 

I doubt the MTA is preparing to work on phase 3 now. I imagine they might want to make sure phase 2 is fully funded before moving on to phase 3. So far, they've been spreading funding for the project across multiple capital plans:

 

1995-1999 capital program: Preliminary studies for the whole project 

2000-2004: Funding to prepare for/begin phase 1

2005-2009: More funding for phase 1

2010-2014: Last bit of funding for phase 1

2015-2019: Funding to prepare for/begin phase 2

 

If they keep up this same pace it's gonna be quite a while before we see funding for phase 3. After what happened in the 1970s (the MTA working on multiple sections of the line at the same time, which all went uncompleted when funding dried up) I can definitely understand the MTA wanting to make sure each phase is fully funded before moving on to the next one. I'd love to be proven wrong though. With all the newsworthy incidents and our insane capital costs I wouldn't be surprised if people attacked the MTA for devoting even more funding to SAS to work on phases 2 and 3 at the same time. I'd love to be proven wrong though. The agency's already drawing flak for adding the LIRR third track into the capital program midway (although it's completely necessary, the fact that the $1 billion for the project is funded basically entirely by debt is a little concerning. But that's another story.)

Edited July 13, 2017 by Mysterious2train

[bobtehpanda]

I know. Did the Feds, as part of New Starts, provide the 70% of money needed for the project?

 

No, there has been no federal announcement of new money. In fact the Trump FTA has not issued any New Starts funding and is proposing not approving any of the ones that haven't had a full funding agreement yet.

 

I doubt the MTA is preparing to work on phase 3 now. I imagine they might want to make sure phase 2 is fully funded before moving on to phase 3. So far, they've been spreading funding for the project across multiple capital plans:

 

1995-1999 capital program: Preliminary studies for the whole project 

2000-2004: Funding to prepare for/begin phase 1

2005-2009: More funding for phase 1

2010-2014: Last bit of funding for phase 1

2015-2019: Funding to prepare for/begin phase 2

 

If they keep up this same pace it's gonna be quite a while before we see funding for phase 3. After what happened in the 1970s (the MTA working on multiple sections of the line at the same time, which all went uncompleted when funding dried up) I can definitely understand the MTA wanting to make sure each phase is fully funded before moving on to the next one. I'd love to be proven wrong though. With all the newsworthy incidents and our insane capital costs I wouldn't be surprised if people attacked the MTA for devoting even more funding to SAS to work on phases 2 and 3 at the same time. I'd love to be proven wrong though. The agency's already drawing flak for adding the LIRR third track into the capital program midway (although it's completely necessary, the fact that the $1 billion for the project is funded basically entirely by debt is a little concerning. But that's another story.)

 

We have spent a total of $4.6B on Phase I, a sum that could build an entire subway line in other places. At the rate the MTA burns money I would be surprised to see Phase III or IV before 2040.

[Porter]

Looking at the rendering, it looks like they decided to not build the extra storage tracks and are just going to put bellmouths at 122nd St instead. 

 

So at least they're preparing for a future Bronx extension; that's something.

[N6 Limited]

For the 2nd Phase couldn't they just cut and cover under 2nd ae real quick to get it done quicker and cheaper and just Tunnel bore under 125th?

[Mysterious2train]

For the 2nd Phase couldn't they just cut and cover under 2nd ae real quick to get it done quicker and cheaper and just Tunnel bore under 125th?

 

That's exactly what they're planning to do. 

[Eric B]

But they insist on making the new 116th St. addon an island platform, which requires redoing the tunnel in that area. I think they should just make it side platforms, which would be easier.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But they insist on making the new 116th St. addon an island platform, which requires redoing the tunnel in that area. I think they should just make it side platforms, which would be easier.

For what? If there's no express service, then I don't see the point. 116th and Lex is far less busier than 125th, and I don't see 2nd and 125th being that busy either, not unless they do some serious building there. It's mostly empty lots there now anyway.

[LTA1992]

For what? If there's no express service, then I don't see the point. 116th and Lex is far less busier than 125th, and I don't see 2nd and 125th being that busy either, not unless they do some serious building there. It's mostly empty lots there now anyway.

The point is to save on costs. Especially when they somehow got a 6 Billion price tag for a tunnel that already exists for 2/3 of the way.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The point is to save on costs. Especially when they somehow got a 6 Billion price tag for a tunnel that already exists for 2/3 of the way.

How can islands be cheaper than side platforms? Makes no sense.

[HenryB]

How can islands be cheaper than side platforms? Makes no sense.

 

 

i guess you need double amounts of stairs and escalators for islands?

[Bosco]

How can islands be cheaper than side platforms? Makes no sense.

 

For areas that are being built from scratch, yes, it would make sense that an island platform would be cheaper.  However, the area around 116 St is different in that the 1970s plan on which the existing tunnel work was based did not include a station there.  So currently there's room for three tracks, except the MTA can't just place an island platform in the middle track since it wouldn't be wide enough (10 feet).  This means that putting an island platform there requires widening that middle area, and thus rebuilding that stretch of the SAS.