Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Bosco]

It also looks like 125 St will suffer the same fate as 72 St, and there doesn't look like anything will be built toward the Bronx except for bellmouths.  Even as the project gets scaled back, the cost continues to go up.  What is the MTA thinking?  Where are the people holding these contractors accountable?  Oh, that's right, union corruption is not a priority for our Emperor.

[Coney Island Av]

Jeezzus. How the flip does a line that's not really a big extension take until 2029? I'll literally be over 90 years old by the time SAS is finished to Hanover Square...

It also has pre-built segments, so their only excuse to justify being hypocrites is whoever f**ked up as a contractor out of sheer laziness. And in reality, they do have the ability to extend all the way to Broadway, but Emperor Cuomo's arrogance gets the best of them. And $6 billion dollars is just atrocious. How is a line that's only miniscule compared to, say, the QBL, take so much money and a decade to be finished? It doesn't have express tracks, side platforms, and is the minimum we can do, yet it still is worth Bill Gates' income? 

Overall, this is just outrageous. I honestly think the community should criticize this plan and force the MTA to reconsider their idiotic decision. 

 

[R68OnBroadway]

Another thing that drives me nuts is all this piecemeal construction crap. They should just try to build the entire line at once and extend the line as it goes. They should have started  from 72nd in both directions and extended the once 96th was reached while still building other segments. If they were smart, they could finish the line in 15-20 years.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Well they do have a community outreach center. Perhaps start there. If they take correspondence online or by mail, I’d be more than glad to let them know how ridiculous it is that Phase 2 is estimated to cost 33 percent more than Phase 1, even though, except for the previously unused half of Lex-63rd, Phase 1 had to be built entirely from scratch.

See, if we were going to get a lot more for the $6 billion, then I wouldn’t question it. Like an extension to 138th St/3rd Ave in the Bronx or another station at Lenox and 125th. Or perhaps part of what is currently part of Phase 3. Then it would be worth the price. But not for a section of subway line with perfectly good tunnels already built along roughly 40 percent of the route.

Edited May 2, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue

[R68OnBroadway]

7 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Well they do have a community outreach center. Perhaps start there. If they take correspondence online or by mail, I’d be more than glad to let them know how ridiculous it is that Phase 2 is estimated to cost 33 percent more than Phase 1, even though, except for the previously unused half of Lex-63rd, Phase 1 had to be built entirely from scratch.

See, if we were going to get a lot more for the $6 billion, then I wouldn’t question it. Like and extension to 138th St/3rd Ave or another station at Lenox and 125th. Or perhaps part of what is currently part of Phase 3. Then it would be worth the price. But not for a section of subway line with perfectly good tunnels already built along roughly 40 percent of the route.

For 6 billion I would expect a line to 3rd Av and 163rd Street in the Bronx.

[NoHacksJustKhaks]

Meanwhile In Asia... And Practically Everywhere Else...

Edited May 2, 2018 by NoHacksJustKhaks

[bobtehpanda]

49 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

For 6 billion I would expect a line to 3rd Av and 163rd Street in the Bronx.

For 6B in a normal country you could get to Fordham Plaza.

[CenSin]

If only someone could make this country great again. 🙄

[kosciusko]

This is what happens when we don't regulate unions. I hope everyone is happy.

If we want to see change, heads need to start rolling.

Edited May 2, 2018 by kosciusko

[Caelestor]

If you're going to have another 10-year phase, might as well expand the scope of the project. Either build the whole line to 125 St / Broadway or 3 Ave / 138 St, or don't do it at all.

[LGA Link N Train]

17 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Another thing that drives me nuts is all this piecemeal construction crap. They should just try to build the entire line at once and extend the line as it goes. They should have started  from 72nd in both directions and extended the once 96th was reached while still building other segments. If they were smart, they could finish the line in 15-20 years.

THANK YOU! If the was smart, not only would the entire line be done in 15-20 years, but it'd also be done right and would be expanded by now. 

18 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

Jeezzus. How the flip does a line that's not really a big extension take until 2029? I'll literally be over 90 years old by the time SAS is finished to Hanover Square...

It also has pre-built segments, so their only excuse to justify being hypocrites is whoever f**ked up as a contractor out of sheer laziness. And in reality, they do have the ability to extend all the way to Broadway, but Emperor Cuomo's arrogance gets the best of them. And $6 billion dollars is just atrocious. How is a line that's only miniscule compared to, say, the QBL, take so much money and a decade to be finished? It doesn't have express tracks, side platforms, and is the minimum we can do, yet it still is worth Bill Gates' income? 

Overall, this is just outrageous. I honestly think the community should criticize this plan and force the MTA to reconsider their idiotic decision. 

 

I think the community should just oppose the entire project until MTA gets their priorities right. Come on, $6 Billion Dollars, the Second Avenue subway AND a couple of other extensions would be complete by now. 

On 5/1/2018 at 5:59 PM, RR503 said:

Talk about *almost* making the 125th st line useful...

Another three blocks, and they would have paradigmatically changed crosstown transportation. But alas, sheer blindness wins again. 

(Clap)  (clap)  (clap)  (clap)  (clap)  I agree. 

On 5/1/2018 at 6:29 PM, MysteriousBtrain said:

You know we can't afford to have more connections along 125 St. It's also not priority to Lord Cuomo. 😛

Apparently 

On 5/1/2018 at 9:44 PM, bobtehpanda said:

2029? Jesus.

 

On 5/1/2018 at 11:10 PM, R68OnBroadway said:

2029 opening and a 6 billion price tag...

Why the f*ck does it take so long and cost so much for a segment that is majority cut-and-cover? We should just put the project on hold or send it to 3rd-138th instead as this 125th crosstown isn’t going to do much to take riders off the Lex lines in the Bronx. Guarantee you with a cost like this and such we are going to get a multi-billion dollar out of control boondoggle like ESA. My grandchildren will be on their deathbed before the whole line is complete. No wonder other countries are even cities are whooping our as**s.

Aggred.

On 5/1/2018 at 11:26 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Completely agreed! $6 billion for a section of the line that would be (or better be!) using existing tunnels under 2nd Avenue. This is beyond outrageous! The MTA needs to come clean about why it’s going to cost that much for a stretch of tracks that don’t go very far and already have existing tunnels in place for much of the way. And fast!

 

On 5/1/2018 at 11:36 PM, kosciusko said:

Where else is Emperor Cuomo supposed to get the funding for his state-run ski resorts?

Heres an idea. Forget about the ski resorts. 

On 5/1/2018 at 11:57 PM, Around the Horn said:

I'm sorry but that's absurd... More than half the thing is built already!

 

19 hours ago, Bosco said:

It also looks like 125 St will suffer the same fate as 72 St, and there doesn't look like anything will be built toward the Bronx except for bellmouths.  Even as the project gets scaled back, the cost continues to go up.  What is the MTA thinking?  Where are the people holding these contractors accountable?  Oh, that's right, union corruption is not a priority for our Emperor.

 

17 hours ago, NoHacksJustKhaks said:

Meanwhile In Asia... And Practically Everywhere Else...

...... things are ACTUALLY getting done. 

I quoted all of you because I agree with all pf your statements

[CenSin]

if you want to see some real change, go get your voice heard where it matters. This forum does not matter and is very unlikely to directly provoke change. You want that third trackway preserved at 116 Street? Get yourself in front representatives who can actually enact changes. They probably have no clue how much they’re screwing future service over by shaving everything down to bare bones while enriching the least important parts of the projects: mezzanines.

Edited May 3, 2018 by CenSin

[W4ST]

This is what I think happens:

1. We think that this project will cost 3 billion dollars, but just in case let's say 4 billion dollars.

2. Things are going well so far and we have all this extra budget! Let's add larger mezzanines and something new for 4 billion dollars!

3. Oh no, we are having problems and the new idea is not working. It will cost more than expected, 5 billion dollars.

4. But just in case, let's say 6 billion dollars.

5. Repeat

[R68OnBroadway]

If we are to build this project, just build the stations like Archer Av- large and open but mezzannes only by exits. If they did this project right, you could extend the line to 3rd-138th for 2 billion.

Edited May 3, 2018 by R68OnBroadway
Spelling error

[kosciusko]

Reminds me of this meme

Quote

 

Food $200

Data $150

Rent $800

Candles $3,600

Utility $150

someone who is good at the economy please help me budget this. my family is dying

Signals 200$

Repairs 150$

Salaries 800$

Mezzanines 3,600$

??? $150

someone who is good at the economy please help me budget this. my subway system is collapsing.

 

 

[BreeddekalbL]

Hell toronto is having the same problem on Line 2 extending it to the Scarborugh Center  approaching 4 billion for 1 stop i wonder how much it costs per mile?

[bobtehpanda]

5 hours ago, CenSin said:

if you want to see some real change, go get your voice heard where it matters. This forum does not matter and is very unlikely to directly provoke change. You want that third trackway preserved at 116 Street? Get yourself in front representatives who can actually enact changes. They probably have no clue how much they’re screwing future service over by shaving everything down to bare bones while enriching the least important parts of the projects: mezzanines.

Actually, that may not actually have that much bearing on the cost:

Quote

But the contractors said the other issues cited by the M.T.A. were challenges that all transit systems face. Density is the norm in cities where subway projects occur. Regulations are similar everywhere. All projects use the same equipment at the same prices. Land and other types of construction do not cost dramatically more in New York. Insurance costs more but is only a fraction of the budget. The M.T.A.’s stations have not been bigger (nor deeper) than is typical.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Hell toronto is having the same problem on Line 2 extending it to the Scarborugh Center  approaching 4 billion for 1 stop i wonder how much it costs per mile?

That is because they are ripping out the subway line that was never meant to be a subway line; Line 3 was built for light rail, which is really what that section of Toronto needs.

[N6 Limited]

4 hours ago, kosciusko said:

Reminds me of this meme

Signals 200$

Repairs 150$

Salaries 800$

Mezzanines 3,600$

??? $150

someone who is good at the economy please help me budget this. my subway system is collapsing.

 

 

Haha. If they just cut and cover the thing it can be done quickly. Hell, the money spent on most of the MTA'ss projects could have been used to extend several lines.  They can even have the SAS emerge to an el north of 116th street and curve it west over 125th street to the Metro North. Maybe they could change the former Pathmark into an intermodal bus terminal 

[Wallyhorse]

On 5/3/2018 at 6:09 PM, N6 Limited said:

Haha. If they just cut and cover the thing it can be done quickly. Hell, the money spent on most of the MTA'ss projects could have been used to extend several lines.  They can even have the SAS emerge to an el north of 116th street and curve it west over 125th street to the Metro North. Maybe they could change the former Pathmark into an intermodal bus terminal 

This is what I have actually proposed to some degree (albeit after 116) in my version, with 116 in my version being two side platforms and keeping that station as originally built.

[RR503]

On 5/2/2018 at 2:24 PM, Bosco said:

It also looks like 125 St will suffer the same fate as 72 St, and there doesn't look like anything will be built toward the Bronx except for bellmouths.  Even as the project gets scaled back, the cost continues to go up.  What is the MTA thinking?  Where are the people holding these contractors accountable?  Oh, that's right, union corruption is not a priority for our Emperor.

125th's being scaled back honestly isn't much of a loss. 3 tracks at a terminal really don't gain you much capacity. The real atrocity was 72nd, whose 3 track set up would have allowed 10-15tph Broadway express service to end there, permitting deinterlining post phase 3. 

[KK 6 Ave Local]

https://imgflip.com/i/29paa1 and https://imgflip.com/i/29pahi

Edited May 5, 2018 by KK 6 Ave Local
i had another meme

[KK 6 Ave Local]

On 5/3/2018 at 1:28 PM, kosciusko said:

Reminds me of this meme

Signals 200$

Repairs 150$

Salaries 800$

Mezzanines 3,600$

??? $150

someone who is good at the economy please help me budget this. my subway system is collapsing.

 

 

But its more like 

1 fish $999999

2 fish $999999

red fish $999999

blue fish $999999

approval from cuomo for the fish $999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999

and then there are the costs for the actual project

Edited May 5, 2018 by KK 6 Ave Local

[KK 6 Ave Local]

On 5/2/2018 at 4:30 PM, R68OnBroadway said:

For 6 billion I would expect a line to 3rd Av and 163rd Street in the Bronx.

teehee my hopes of that died a while ago

[Bosco]

3 hours ago, RR503 said:

125th's being scaled back honestly isn't much of a loss. 3 tracks at a terminal really don't gain you much capacity. The real atrocity was 72nd, whose 3 track set up would have allowed 10-15tph Broadway express service to end there, permitting deinterlining post phase 3. 

Fair enough, but it's just the idea that once again, even as things get scaled back, the costs still go higher than projected.  These projects need to get done but there needs to be at least some accountability.  ESA just went up another billion.