Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Threxx]

Right. The point being, though, is that the express tracks were built below. Especially since the 2nd Av stations are island platforms, it'll make it easy to build right beneath them. If the line is ever extended into the Bronx or down to Brooklyn, they'll need them.

 

I'm not sure it would really be 100% necessary. Considering the distance between a lot of the stations, the line already functions as a "poor man's express" as it was previously described. As long as the tracks can handle the load of the TPH (likely 25-30+ TPH if a second line is added along with the ) then it's not really necessary to have express tracks.

[bobtehpanda]

…to Astoria?

 

Facing Astoria, yes. Given that it seems likely that 125 could be extended west, extending east to replace the M60 is not that wild of an idea. This would all have to be done after full SAS completion, though.

I'm not sure it would really be 100% necessary. Considering the distance between a lot of the stations, the line already functions as a "poor man's express" as it was previously described. As long as the tracks can handle the load of the TPH (likely 25-30+ TPH if a second line is added along with the ) then it's not really necessary to have express tracks.

 

With two tracks you can have:

 

125 - Brooklyn

Bronx - Broadway Line

Queens via 63 St - Brooklyn

 

This is, of course, assuming the appropriate connections are built, but this would improve capacity a lot on the existing subway, particularly the Queens via 63 St alignment,

Edited April 20, 2016 by bobtehpanda

[Around the Horn]

With two tracks you can have:

 

125 - Brooklyn

Bronx - Broadway Line

Queens via 63 St - Brooklyn

I'd rather have:

125th-Broadway to Broadway Line

Bronx to Brooklyn

Queens via 63 Street to Brooklyn

 

The longer line should serve the shorter 125 Street branch which I would extend crosstown with a non-revenue connection to CPW. This also gives alternate routing for the in case of a big disruption on CPW. The should go into the Bronx via either 3 Av or the NEC ROW.

[Wallyhorse]

I'd rather have:

125th-Broadway to Broadway Line

Bronx to Brooklyn

Queens via 63 Street to Brooklyn

 

The longer line should serve the shorter 125 Street branch which I would extend crosstown with a non-revenue connection to CPW. This also gives alternate routing for the in case of a big disruption on CPW. The should go into the Bronx via either 3 Av or the NEC ROW.

I have long advocated having the be the line that goes to 125th/Broadway-12th Avenue (Broadway-12th Avenue would be the name of the station and include a transfer to the and if the MetroNorth station is built there give direct access to that). while the would be the line that serves the Bronx, possibly where the goes elevated in The Bronx (with provisions to later rebuild the Manhattan 3rd Avenue El if warranted AND if it were actually elevated) replacing the long-lost 3rd Avenue El stations (either elevated or underground).   The portion would include the connection to the 8th Avenue line (and then later if Phase 4 is extended to Brooklyn to connect to the Fulton Street line, the option to run the and via the full SAS to Hoyt-Schermerhorn if necessary). 

 

As for building express tracks on the SAS, that might be the way to build (as I've noted before) a new Queens tunnel that would be via 79th Street and include a three-track terminal at 79th Street and York-1st Avenue.  That could then run under the SAS until after the breakaway by the at 63rd with the area south of there becoming four tracks.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Wallyhorse

[CenSin]

With two tracks you can have:

 

125 - Brooklyn

Bronx - Broadway Line

Queens via 63 St - Brooklyn

And out of the 3, only 1 can ever serve the Bronx—no more.

[P3F]

And out of the 3, only 1 can ever serve the Bronx—no more.

Personally I'd have another line, either a York Avenue or 5th Avenue line, serve the Bronx. A 125th street crosstown would actually be very useful for many (but NOT to 12 Ave as Wally suggests).

 

Realistically, I doubt the will see the Bronx until the 2080s, so all this speculation is very hypothetical.

[Wallyhorse]

Personally I'd have another line, either a York Avenue or 5th Avenue line, serve the Bronx. A 125th street crosstown would actually be very useful for many (but NOT to 12 Ave as Wally suggests).

 

Realistically, I doubt the will see the Bronx until the 2080s, so all this speculation is very hypothetical.

Broadway-12th Avenue would serve two purposes:

 

A free transfer on the east end to the at Broadway (plus all the other transfers along 125 between ALL of the other lines that run through 125 and a connection to the 8th Avenue line that while not revenue at first can eventually be used as a Concourse line).  That in itself is one reason.

 

If the Metro North station is built, being able to go between those easily on the west end.

 

Add to that by the time this is done Columbia University will likely be well into its expansion and going to 125th/Broadway-12th Avenue makes sense. 

[Mysterious2train]

Anybody see Charles Moerdler's threat to Horodniceanu this past Transit committee meeting?

 

(although you can go back a few minutes for more context)

 

Dr. Horodniceanu, Judlau does work on bridges. Judlau does work on a variety of contracts for MTA. Is Judlau aware that should it fail to do that which it has to do, there are members of this board who will oppose any award of any contract under any circumstances to Judlau?

 

Judlau of course, is the contractor for the 72nd Street finishes contract (And also for the reconstruction of Lexington Avenue-63rd Street). Granted, I doubt Judlau will actually be blacklisted and it'll be business as usual the next time they're gunning for a contract, but it was a nice gesture. 

 

 

Although to be honest I'm more disappointed in Judlau with the glacial pace of their work at 63rd Street. Even the MTA is essentially saying they're underperforming. Would you believe the reconstruction work at 63rd Street was originally projected to take 3 years (2011 to 2014), but now it's lasted 5 years?

 

Also off-topic, but who does the close-captions for the MTA's board and committee meetings? Because they accidentally called Anil Parikh (one of the heads of the project) "Neal" which was a little funny.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Mysterious2train

[Lance]

I'd rather have:

125th-Broadway to Broadway Line

Bronx to Brooklyn

Queens via 63 Street to Brooklyn

 

The longer line should serve the shorter 125 Street branch which I would extend crosstown with a non-revenue connection to CPW. This also gives alternate routing for the in case of a big disruption on CPW. The should go into the Bronx via either 3 Av or the NEC ROW.

Having the run to West Harlem is pretty pointless if you ask me. Who's going to ride the from W 125th Street, down the east side and back over to the west side when they have much quicker options via Broadway-7th Ave and Central Park West-8th Ave? If you must have a 125th Street crosstown, let it be serviced by the true 2nd Avenue line trains, rather than have the Broadway trains bounce back and forth across the island.

 

I have long advocated having the be the line that goes to 125th/Broadway-12th Avenue (Broadway-12th Avenue would be the name of the station and include a transfer to the and if the MetroNorth station is built there give direct access to that). while the would be the line that serves the Bronx, possibly where the goes elevated in The Bronx (with provisions to later rebuild the Manhattan 3rd Avenue El if warranted AND if it were actually elevated) replacing the long-lost 3rd Avenue El stations (either elevated or underground).   The portion would include the connection to the 8th Avenue line (and then later if Phase 4 is extended to Brooklyn to connect to the Fulton Street line, the option to run the and via the full SAS to Hoyt-Schermerhorn if necessary). 

 

As for building express tracks on the SAS, that might be the way to build (as I've noted before) a new Queens tunnel that would be via 79th Street and include a three-track terminal at 79th Street and York-1st Avenue.  That could then run under the SAS until after the breakaway by the at 63rd with the area south of there becoming four tracks.

I don't know why you keep mentioning elevated lines like there's any possibility of the MTA building one ever. Also, what the purpose behind a tunnel under 79th Street? I presume it's to connect to Queens Blvd, but why? 63rd Street is underutilized as it is. What do think is going to happen with another tunnel with limited connections?

[Wallyhorse]

Having the run to West Harlem is pretty pointless if you ask me. Who's going to ride the from W 125th Street, down the east side and back over to the west side when they have much quicker options via Broadway-7th Ave and Central Park West-8th Ave? If you must have a 125th Street crosstown, let it be serviced by the true 2nd Avenue line trains, rather than have the Broadway trains bounce back and forth across the island.

 

I don't know why you keep mentioning elevated lines like there's any possibility of the MTA building one ever. Also, what the purpose behind a tunnel under 79th Street? I presume it's to connect to Queens Blvd, but why? 63rd Street is underutilized as it is. What do think is going to happen with another tunnel with limited connections?

The idea of the running to 125th Street is it would serve the same purpose there the does in Manhattan as it would connect to EVERY subway line that crosses 125:

 

The and at Lexington Avenue (plus Metro North)

 

The and at Lenox Avenue

 

The and at St. Nicholas Avenue (with a connection to the 8th Avenue line there that allows for such trains that stop on the 8th Avenue line to access the SAS in a G.O. or other emergency PLUS allow for SAS service to Yankee Stadium for events there). 

 

The at Broadway-12th Avenue with direct access to Metro North at the other end should that station be built.

 

Plus by then you have Columbia's expansion that likely will make that station more heavily used by people who go to Columbia but live on the east side.

 

As for a new Queens tunnel via 79th, that first solves the 79th street issue that I'm sure is going to eventually come up with a station there at York-1st Avenues, but for Queens this would be a new subway line that would likely run via a new route TBD that could easily include the never-used upper level of Roosevelt Boulevard (with stuff currently in that station moved over time because this would not be for 30+ years minimum) and perhaps even being an additional line serving the Rockaway Beach Branch if that is ever rebuilt.

[CenSin]

As for a new Queens tunnel via 79th, that first solves the 79th street issue that I'm sure is going to eventually come up with a station there at York-1st Avenues, but for Queens this would be a new subway line that would likely run via a new route TBD that could easily include the never-used upper level of Roosevelt Boulevard (with stuff currently in that station moved over time because this would not be for 30+ years minimum) and perhaps even being an additional line serving the Rockaway Beach Branch if that is ever rebuilt.

The 63 Street line can do that without another Manhattan tunnel. There are existing provisions east of 21 Street–Queensbridge that allows for another line to branch out from there. That line could tie into 2 Avenue assuming phase 3 is completed.

[Lance]

The idea of the running to 125th Street is it would serve the same purpose there the does in Manhattan as it would connect to EVERY subway line that crosses 125:

 

The and at Lexington Avenue (plus Metro North)

 

The and at Lenox Avenue

 

The and at St. Nicholas Avenue (with a connection to the 8th Avenue line there that allows for such trains that stop on the 8th Avenue line to access the SAS in a G.O. or other emergency PLUS allow for SAS service to Yankee Stadium for events there). 

 

The at Broadway-12th Avenue with direct access to Metro North at the other end should that station be built.

 

Plus by then you have Columbia's expansion that likely will make that station more heavily used by people who go to Columbia but live on the east side.

Good job on not reading my post at all. I didn't say I was against a 125th Street line. I just don't think the should be the route to that job. Since all these pie in the sky ideas assume a full-length Second Ave Line, why not have the (or whatever the line is called in 2319) run to the west side? It accomplishes the same thing without meandering across Manhattan.

 

Also, once again, your reasoning is quite flawed. Even if you could justify an 8th Ave/125th St track connection, most riders won't use it because there are quicker, more direct options to their destinations. You're basically trying to sell a connection that would only be used in the event of emergencies. While it's good to have backups and contingencies in place in case of the inevitable, their cost have to be justified in terms of their benefits. Somehow, I don't feel once in a blue moon events qualify.

[Wallyhorse]

Good job on not reading my post at all. I didn't say I was against a 125th Street line. I just don't think the should be the route to that job. Since all these pie in the sky ideas assume a full-length Second Ave Line, why not have the (or whatever the line is called in 2319) run to the west side? It accomplishes the same thing without meandering across Manhattan.

 

Also, once again, your reasoning is quite flawed. Even if you could justify an 8th Ave/125th St track connection, most riders won't use it because there are quicker, more direct options to their destinations. You're basically trying to sell a connection that would only be used in the event of emergencies. While it's good to have backups and contingencies in place in case of the inevitable, their cost have to be justified in terms of their benefits. Somehow, I don't feel once in a blue moon events qualify.

More like I misread it.

 

I agree on the and the would be more logical for that, I'm thinking of this as an extension of Phase 2 since Phases 3/4 likely won't be done for many years.

 

If you do both an extension to the west side and then to The Bronx, then I would consider the idea of the being the line across 125 and the going to the Bronx.

 

I do think having whichever line do it as a 125th Street crosstown (with a connection to the 8th Avenue Line) is something that needs to be considered because I think that will be a much more heavily used line than many think, especially since it would make it easier for those who live on the east side and go to say Columbia would make it easier on them to get there.

[Around the Horn]

The main reason why I assigned 125 Street to the is because a to the Bronx is pretty long. I wanted the , which most likely will start in Manhattan to go the Bronx instead, because its shorter.

[Lance]

It's no different than the or the , which are pretty long themselves.

I do think having whichever line do it as a 125th Street crosstown (with a connection to the 8th Avenue Line) is something that needs to be considered because I think that will be a much more heavily used line than many think, especially since it would make it easier for those who live on the east side and go to say Columbia would make it easier on them to get there.

You know how they say you're missing the forest for the trees. Well, with you, it's like you're focusing on the leaves of said trees. You're so keyed into this one aspect, in this case, the expansion of Columbia University, that you aren't taking into account the big picture. Regardless of what you think, that expansion is not going to bring the millions of riders you seem to expect.

[CenSin]

You know how they say you're missing the forest for the trees. Well, with you, it's like you're focusing on the leaves of said trees. You're so keyed into this one aspect, in this case, the expansion of Columbia University, that you aren't taking into account the big picture. Regardless of what you think, that expansion is not going to bring the millions of riders you seem to expect.

It’s not the leaves. It’s the veins in the leaf and how the veins transport materials to other parts of the leaf.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Wallyhorse, you greatly overestimate how much of a destination Columbia University is, expansion or not. You also greatly underestimate the feasibility of building a transfer between the , the and Metro North at 125th and Broadway/12th. And I'm sorry, but a train from the Rockaways to Manhattan via a hypothetical 79th St tunnel is a line that will cost a lot of money to build, for a daily ridership that's not going to be very high simply due to the path that train would have to take.

[onthe1train]

I can buy into a 125th St line. Right now I have to take a bus to get to the Upper East Side. This goes for anyone in the northwest Bronx or northern Manhattan. Those buses, especially the Bx9, add so much time to the trip. Connections at Broadway and 8th Av would drastically reduce travel times, 15-20 minutes easily.

Edited April 22, 2016 by onthe1train

[Wallyhorse]

It's no different than the or the , which are pretty long themselves.

 

You know how they say you're missing the forest for the trees. Well, with you, it's like you're focusing on the leaves of said trees. You're so keyed into this one aspect, in this case, the expansion of Columbia University, that you aren't taking into account the big picture. Regardless of what you think, that expansion is not going to bring the millions of riders you seem to expect.

Columbia is only one part of it, but the most notable.

 

The bigger part are the transfers along 125.  Someone from extreme upper Manhattan or Van Cortlandt Park looking for the East Side is going to want this, especially those that for example work at one of the major hospitals (excluding Mount Siani) on the east side.  Add to that those who may commute from there to work at the various high rises on the UES (where there are likely to be many more of by the time such an extension is built) and likely will become popular as well as with those in The Bronx who might use the or to the / at St. Nicholas/125 to avoid taking the for instance if they work on 3rd Avenue or 2nd Avenue or points east on the UES (and later if it ever gets built, the rest of 2nd Avenue).  

[Threxx]

One also has to consider the engineering aspect...

 

125th Street east of about St. Nicholas lies over a very large fault line which causes the entire Manhattan Valley there (which is why the 125th Street station is on a viaduct in the first place).

 

Building a subway line there would be a difficult engineering feat and would be extremely expensive. Any prospective 125th Street line probably wouldn't go far past St. Nicholas Avenue.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Not to mention that making the connection to the at 125th would a huge feat itself, given how high up over the street that station is.

 

I'll agree with you that a line across 125th St should probably not go west of St. Nicholas.

[Javier]

Did I miss something or is phase 4 missing from the Second Ave Subway plans?

[onthe1train]

Columbia is only one part of it, but the most notable.

 

The bigger part are the transfers along 125.  Someone from extreme upper Manhattan or Van Cortlandt Park looking for the East Side is going to want this, especially those that for example work at one of the major hospitals (excluding Mount Siani) on the east side.  Add to that those who may commute from there to work at the various high rises on the UES (where there are likely to be many more of by the time such an extension is built) and likely will become popular as well as with those in The Bronx who might use the or to the / at St. Nicholas/125 to avoid taking the for instance if they work on 3rd Avenue or 2nd Avenue or points east on the UES (and later if it ever gets built, the rest of 2nd Avenue).  

 

 

One also has to consider the engineering aspect...

 

125th Street east of about St. Nicholas lies over a very large fault line which causes the entire Manhattan Valley there (which is why the 125th Street station is on a viaduct in the first place).

 

Building a subway line there would be a difficult engineering feat and would be extremely expensive. Any prospective 125th Street line probably wouldn't go far past St. Nicholas Avenue.

 

 

Not to mention that making the connection to the at 125th would a huge feat itself, given how high up over the street that station is.

 

I'll agree with you that a line across 125th St should probably not go west of St. Nicholas.

 

So taking all this into account, extending the line to at least 8th Av/St. Nicholas would be generally feasible and beneficial for uptown/Bronx riders. I suppose the only concern would be avoiding the fault line to build tail tracks. 

[bobtehpanda]

One also has to consider the engineering aspect...

 

125th Street east of about St. Nicholas lies over a very large fault line which causes the entire Manhattan Valley there (which is why the 125th Street station is on a viaduct in the first place).

 

Building a subway line there would be a difficult engineering feat and would be extremely expensive. Any prospective 125th Street line probably wouldn't go far past St. Nicholas Avenue.

 

There are subways built along fault lines all the time (and for far cheaper than they are built here.) BART runs alongside an actual fault; Tokyo is crisscrossed by faults; many other cities that are prone to earthquakes also have faults.

 

The farthest any line should go on 125th St is Broadway. Any sort of subway connection to other lines in the west would be daft.

The main reason why I assigned 125 Street to the is because a to the Bronx is pretty long. I wanted the , which most likely will start in Manhattan to go the Bronx instead, because its shorter.

 

We have tons of Bronx-Brooklyn lines that run express in Manhattan. The and would be pretty similar in length.

[Around the Horn]

We have tons of Bronx-Brooklyn lines that run express in Manhattan. The and would be pretty similar in length.

Yes that is the case however the only line from the Bronx to Brooklyn that goes all the way to the shore is the which is prone to periods of lateness and bunching (especially when the isn't running on 6th).

 

I'm aware that there is precedent however I'm cautious to create another long route, especially after our many train discussions and considering the fact that there is another line (the ) that will only run within Manhattan under the current plan.

 

I just would rather extend the shorter line along the longer extension. That's all...