Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[bobtehpanda]

That is all true (especially under normal circumstances), however, as we are also seeing this year, if you have tight races or where you are potentially looking at a brokered convention, the big urban areas like New York and LA may actually (for once) play a big factor and that is where transit issues could play a factor.  

 

Even in urban only races being a transportation focused person does not work. Joe Lhota's experience did not help him gain votes (in fact he lost pretty badly). Chris Christie got reelected despite wrecking the largest transportation project in this nation's history.

 

People at a brokered convention don't care about transportation, they care about bigger things like the economy or foreign policy or even how supporting candidate X will help their prospects in the future. If you were to take a national poll on big issues facing the country, transportation wouldn't even rank.

[Wallyhorse]

Even in urban only races being a transportation focused person does not work. Joe Lhota's experience did not help him gain votes (in fact he lost pretty badly). Chris Christie got reelected despite wrecking the largest transportation project in this nation's history.

 

People at a brokered convention don't care about transportation, they care about bigger things like the economy or foreign policy or even how supporting candidate X will help their prospects in the future. If you were to take a national poll on big issues facing the country, transportation wouldn't even rank.

Yes, but seemingly minor issues that 99.99% of the general population doesn't care about can play into the outcome of an election.

 

The Democrats learned that lesson the hard way in 2000 with Elian Gonzalez.  The widely held belief there was if Clinton had issued an Executive Order that barred his father from taking his son back to Cuba (taking him back was against his late mother's wishes), many Cuban-Americans in Miami who even now have an extremely deep hatred for Castro would have voted for Al Gore solely on that one issue and Gore would have won Florida in 2000 by 100,000+ votes.  That was where something only .01% of the country cared about decided the Presidential election.

 

That's why I say transit is one of those "minor" issues that 99.99% don't care about that in an extremely tight race can make the difference.  That was the lesson learned from 2000.

[Moody]

When the second ave line goes into operation, I believe it will create a hiring boom and stimulate more jobs for the mta. After that they will start working on ways to fix other issues and plan for rebuilding lag airport. 

 

Maybe they'll add a line from the south brooklyn to queens not touching Manhattan. Why didn't think of this?

[bstar1]

We already have the doing that with other subway connections in Brooklyn or walking distance.

[bobtehpanda]

When the second ave line goes into operation, I believe it will create a hiring boom and stimulate more jobs for the mta. After that they will start working on ways to fix other issues and plan for rebuilding lag airport. 

 

Maybe they'll add a line from the south brooklyn to queens not touching Manhattan. Why didn't think of this?

 

There's barely enough money for the MTA as it is. Also, LGA is Port Authority.

 

We already have the doing that with other subway connections in Brooklyn or walking distance.

 

It doesn't really connect the two in a way that is actually faster than going through Manhattan, though. The holy grail of cross-borough commuting is Triboro RX.

[Moody]

There's barely enough money for the MTA as it is. Also, LGA is Port Authority.

 

 

 

It doesn't really connect the two in a way that is actually faster than going through Manhattan, though. The holy grail of cross-borough commuting is Triboro RX.

Cities infrastructure is very old. Lag airport is one of the worst airports in the US. I know its part of PA. But part of the reason why its terrible is because of its location. So improvements in the airport and around better transportation means a better vibrant business metropolis. They announced that lag airport will be reconstructed. And with reconstructed airports comes better convenient transportation.

 

Jfk airport is a very nice airport. But it can take someone from the city about 90 minutes to 2 hrs to get to it by car. You guys know this. You need to improve it. The E train....I never heard anyone taking the train to jfk unless they work there. No one uses that. It takes just as long.

 

Also. Imagine if you're bay ridge brooklyn and you can take a subway straigh to forest hills. Just cut right through. Do you know how much time people would save? To get to brooklyn from queens you have to go to the city first.

 

This isn't 1900's anymore. With better transportation you have a better productive society. Especially in nyc.

 

They have the money. Just like when they had that surplus that came outta no where.

[bstar1]

R connects to in Brooklyn

at 4 Av/9 St.

[TransitJusticeForAll]

Second Avenue Subway Phase I Hearing

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/48961-second-avenue-subway-phase-i-hearing/

 

Enjoy.

[CenSin]

Such a beautiful rendering of the future two-track station. But we’ll never see a modern 21^st century 3 or 4-track station in our lifetimes.

[BDNQ2345]

Second Avenue Subway Phase I Hearing

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/48961-second-avenue-subway-phase-i-hearing/

 

Enjoy.

I hope they extend the to Bay Pkwy for helping the and the in Brooklyn

[bobtehpanda]

Cities infrastructure is very old. Lag airport is one of the worst airports in the US. I know its part of PA. But part of the reason why its terrible is because of its location. So improvements in the airport and around better transportation means a better vibrant business metropolis. They announced that lag airport will be reconstructed. And with reconstructed airports comes better convenient transportation.

 

Jfk airport is a very nice airport. But it can take someone from the city about 90 minutes to 2 hrs to get to it by car. You guys know this. You need to improve it. The E train....I never heard anyone taking the train to jfk unless they work there. No one uses that. It takes just as long.

 

Also. Imagine if you're bay ridge brooklyn and you can take a subway straigh to forest hills. Just cut right through. Do you know how much time people would save? To get to brooklyn from queens you have to go to the city first.

 

This isn't 1900's anymore. With better transportation you have a better productive society. Especially in nyc.

 

They have the money. Just like when they had that surplus that came outta no where.

 

The airport is 35 minutes from Penn with the LIRR, with similar time from Atlantic. If you can afford to go to the airport, you can afford to pay a higher train or cab fare. The only reliable markets for airports are workers and business people, and even those aren't particularly strong ridership bases; spending more on airport transit would be a waste of money if it wouldn't have a dependable riderbase.

Edited April 14, 2016 by bobtehpanda

[Around the Horn]

The airport is 35 minutes from Penn with the LIRR, with similar time from Atlantic. If you can afford to go to the airport, you can afford to pay a higher train or cab fare. The only reliable markets for airports are workers and business people, and even those aren't particularly strong ridership bases; spending more on airport transit would be a waste of money if it wouldn't have a dependable riderbase.

Not always true. You can bank on riders who work at the airport and non business travelers.

 

While it may seem random, you can always bank on a certain amount of riders trying to get to an airport even if they aren't the same people traveling over and over again.

[bobtehpanda]

Not always true. You can bank on riders who work at the airport and non business travelers.

 

While it may seem random, you can always bank on a certain amount of riders trying to get to an airport even if they aren't the same people traveling over and over again.

 

By workers, I meant airport employees.

 

Non-business travel is very erratic, and it's not as if those travelers are in particular need of it so much as it is a desire. In fact airport rail lines, especially those that are purpose built, tend to perform rather poorly compared to other transit investments.

[Threxx]

I was reading the thread (good job on getting way off topic guys, just like old times) and multiple kept bring up extending the or to 149th Street in the Bronx... I want to attempt to address that realistically.

 

The cost of a new underwater tube would be astronomical. Look at how expensive East Side Access has become on the LIRR. Obviously since the Harlem River is much smaller than the East River, the costs would be lower, but that is the first problem. The second issue would be the timing of such an extension. Would you propose it take priority over Phases 3 and 4, or come after those are both done?

[Around the Horn]

The idea was that Phase 2 should go into the Bronx instead of making an expensive deep tunnel curve to 125th and Lex. The extension would provide additional service in the Hub and connections to the and Bronx buses. This would also allow for two Bronx branches in the future(one routing for the and one for the ). With the current proposal one of the two must serve 125 St, if one goes to the Bronx at all.

[Threxx]

The idea was that Phase 2 should go into the Bronx instead of making an expensive deep tunnel curve to 125th and Lex. The extension would provide additional service in the Hub and connections to the and Bronx buses. This would also allow for two Bronx branches in the future(one routing for the and one for the ). With the current proposal one of the two must serve 125 St, if one goes to the Bronx at all.

 

The current plan to build the 125th Street station at Lex and then have the or run to the Bronx using the northern provision is rather dumb, since it means that all Bronx 2nd Avenue trains would have to bypass 125th Street, unless they moved the station.

[CenSin]

The idea was that Phase 2 should go into the Bronx instead of making an expensive deep tunnel curve to 125th and Lex. The extension would provide additional service in the Hub and connections to the and Bronx buses. This would also allow for two Bronx branches in the future(one routing for the and one for the ). With the current proposal one of the two must serve 125 St, if one goes to the Bronx at all.

The saving grace is that the limitation imposed by this setup may one day force the MTA to build express tracks or yet another trunk running parallel to 2 Avenue.

[Eric B]

Mention of extra track (which should not have been cut out of 72nd St.) reminds me of today's big news regarding that station: http://secondavenuesagas.com/2016/04/18/16261/

[Javier]

Well if we live to see the day, 72nd St can be rebuilt into a two platform station, just like Nevins St. However, if the IND Second Avenue line was suppose to stop at Nevins St (since Nevins was suppose to become the central hub in Brooklyn) that means that if the 2016 Second Avenue Line will be extended into Brooklyn, why can't it terminate at South 4 St like it was originally suppose to?

[Lance]

The current plan to build the 125th Street station at Lex and then have the or run to the Bronx using the northern provision is rather dumb, since it means that all Bronx 2nd Avenue trains would have to bypass 125th Street, unless they moved the station.

I can tell you this, if the station is at 125th Street and Lexington Ave, it's staying there.

 

The saving grace is that the limitation imposed by this setup may one day force the MTA to build express tracks or yet another trunk running parallel to 2 Avenue.

Yeah, that's not happening. If they were going to install express tracks, they'd have to go under the already existing tracks since 2nd Avenue is not wide enough for four tracks side by side. Either that or build them on either 1st Avenue or 3rd Avenue, both options pretty much dead on arrival.

 

Mention of extra track (which should not have been cut out of 72nd St.) reminds me of today's big news regarding that station: http://secondavenuesagas.com/2016/04/18/16261/

I'm shocked I tell you. Simply shocked.

 

Well if we live to see the day, 72nd St can be rebuilt into a two platform station, just like Nevins St. However, if the IND Second Avenue line was suppose to stop at Nevins St (since Nevins was suppose to become the central hub in Brooklyn) that means that if the 2016 Second Avenue Line will be extended into Brooklyn, why can't it terminate at South 4 St like it was originally suppose to?

Let's just get downtown first...

[bobtehpanda]

I, personally, wouldn't mind if they built a second pair of turnouts facing east from 125.

[onthe1train]

...If they were going to install express tracks, they'd have to go under the already existing tracks...

 

What is the feasibility of this? I know it's very different now, but isn't this essentially what was done with the 6th Av express tracks?

[Threxx]

What is the feasibility of this? I know it's very different now, but isn't this essentially what was done with the 6th Av express tracks?

 

6th Avenue is... complicated.

 

The express tracks are in between and below the local tracks, which themselves are above the PATH tracks.

 

So in order of depth...

 

6th Avenue Local

PATH

6th Avenue Express

 

The tracks under 6th Avenue are a mess due to things being completed at different times so it's rather confusing. 2nd Avenue likely wouldn't have similar issues, the only problem there is money.

[CenSin]

I, personally, wouldn't mind if they built a second pair of turnouts facing east from 125.

…to Astoria?

[onthe1train]

6th Avenue is... complicated.

 

The express tracks are in between and below the local tracks, which themselves are above the PATH tracks.

 

So in order of depth...

 

6th Avenue Local

PATH

6th Avenue Express

 

The tracks under 6th Avenue are a mess due to things being completed at different times so it's rather confusing. 2nd Avenue likely wouldn't have similar issues, the only problem there is money.

 

Right. The point being, though, is that the express tracks were built below. Especially since the 2nd Av stations are island platforms, it'll make it easy to build right beneath them. If the line is ever extended into the Bronx or down to Brooklyn, they'll need them.