Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Fresh Pond]

Not to mention that making the connection to the at 125th would a huge feat itself, given how high up over the street that station is.

 

I'll agree with you that a line across 125th St should probably not go west of St. Nicholas.

 

The is like 70 feet above street level at that point. At an average, the SAS is about 50-70 feet below street level. That's gonna be a huge feat in itself right there.

[CenSin]

The is like 70 feet above street level at that point. At an average, the SAS is about 50-70 feet below street level. That's gonna be a huge feat in itself right there.

It doesn’t have to go to 125 Street and Broadway though. There is La Salle Street, which is a continuation of 125 Street with a different name. At that point, the structure is just high enough to let a street pass under it. And if the tunnel is going to be deep like most of the bored tunnels, then 125 Street to La Salle Street is going to be the right distance for a inclined ramp/escalator/elevator connecting the two stations.

 

[Wallyhorse]

Looked at that and you're right.  La Salle Street would likely work and a connection could be made between the SAS and the that way and would keep the line relatively straight as well.  

[CenSin]

Looked at that and you're right.  La Salle Street would likely work and a connection could be made between the SAS and the that way and would keep the line relatively straight as well.  

It should stop at Broadway and go no further though. A station in that area cannot both conveniently serve the and the railroad. The the station would be too far from one or the other or two consecutive stations would be too close together leaving no room for tail tracks.

 

As for the connection to the Central Park West Line, I believe the area is far too built up for such a connection to be made. The curve would have to cut under private property for sure, and given that the MTA put some effort into revising plans to avoid cutting under private property for the 125 Street/2 Avenue curve, it would be unlikely that the MTA would ever do it here. But supposing it did happen, the two storage tracks at 135 Street would no longer be able to serve its current purpose.

[Wallyhorse]

It should stop at Broadway and go no further though. A station in that area cannot both conveniently serve the and the railroad. The the station would be too far from one or the other or two consecutive stations would be too close together leaving no room for tail tracks.

 

As for the connection to the Central Park West Line, I believe the area is far too built up for such a connection to be made. The curve would have to cut under private property for sure, and given that the MTA put some effort into revising plans to avoid cutting under private property for the 125 Street/2 Avenue curve, it would be unlikely that the MTA would ever do it here. But supposing it did happen, the two storage tracks at 135 Street would no longer be able to serve its current purpose.

Right about the transfer as that is the more important, plus we don't know if the Metro North station will ever be built anyway.

 

As for 8th Avenue/CPW (or there, St. Nicholas Avenue), that is a connection that could prove very well needed, especially if work needed to be done on CPW where the and needed to be switched to the SAS (the would rarely if at all come up in this), plus as noted also allow there to be special SAS service to Yankee Stadium for events there.

[bobtehpanda]

Right about the transfer as that is the more important, plus we don't know if the Metro North station will ever be built anyway.

 

As for 8th Avenue/CPW (or there, St. Nicholas Avenue), that is a connection that could prove very well needed, especially if work needed to be done on CPW where the and needed to be switched to the SAS (the would rarely if at all come up in this), plus as noted also allow there to be special SAS service to Yankee Stadium for events there.

 

Work is already done on CPW during FasTrak. We don't need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars destroying city blocks to build something that might get used sometime.

[j express]

Right about the transfer as that is the more important, plus we don't know if the Metro North station will ever be built anyway.

 

As for 8th Avenue/CPW (or there, St. Nicholas Avenue), that is a connection that could prove very well needed, especially if work needed to be done on CPW where the and needed to be switched to the SAS (the would rarely if at all come up in this), plus as noted also allow there to be special SAS service to Yankee Stadium for events there.

How would the    get back to its regular routes if rerouted to Second Av thats just absurb. While the  can resume regular route at 47-50 St. 

Having the run to West Harlem is pretty pointless if you ask me. Who's going to ride the from W 125th Street, down the east side and back over to the west side when they have much quicker options via Broadway-7th Ave and Central Park West-8th Ave? If you must have a 125th Street crosstown, let it be serviced by the true 2nd Avenue line trains, rather than have the Broadway trains bounce back and forth across the island.

 

I don't know why you keep mentioning elevated lines like there's any possibility of the MTA building one ever. Also, what the purpose behind a tunnel under 79th Street? I presume it's to connect to Queens Blvd, but why? 63rd Street is underutilized as it is. What do think is going to happen with another tunnel with limited connections?

Even though it benefits Upper Manhattan riders to get easy access to the East Side, no one in the right mind would take a  to Midtown from 125 St when you have    which is straight and a 8 minute ride on express. 

[Wallyhorse]

Work is already done on CPW during FasTrak. We don't need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars destroying city blocks to build something that might get used sometime.

That's now.

 

We are likely talking 10-15 years from now if the SAS doubled as a 125th Street crosstown.  By the time that was done, you might need to have work done on CPW that would require such re-routes, and obviously, such can be done in an emergency and also for events at Yankee Stadium and so forth.

 

Also, and especially if the (not the one I'm proposing as half of a split ) comes online, that could be the way to have it reach the Bronx via the Concourse line.  

[CenSin]

How would the    get back to its regular routes if rerouted to Second Av thats just absurb. While the  can resume regular route at 47-50 St.

You said it yourself: 47-50 Street–Rockefeller Center

 

--> 145 Street/St. Nicholas Avenue --> 125 Street/2 Avenue --> Lexington Avenue/63 Street --> 47-50 Streets–Rockefeller Center --> West 4 Street–Washington Square --> Jay Street–MetroTech

[Wallyhorse]

You said it yourself: 47-50 Street–Rockefeller Center

 

--> 145 Street/St. Nicholas Avenue --> 125 Street/2 Avenue --> Lexington Avenue/63 Street --> 47-50 Streets–Rockefeller Center --> West 4 Street–Washington Square --> Jay Street–MetroTech

That is correct, except the and would resume normal route (with the stopping at Spring Street) after West 4th back on 8th Avenue in that scenario.

[CenSin]

That is correct, except the and would resume normal route (with the stopping at Spring Street) after West 4th back on 8th Avenue in that scenario.

Only if it can. That’s why Jay Street–MetroTech is included. Either way, it will end up there whether it’s following the or going along its normal route.

[Around the Horn]

As for 8th Avenue/CPW (or there, St. Nicholas Avenue), that is a connection that could prove very well needed, especially if work needed to be done on CPW where the and needed to be switched to the SAS (the would rarely if at all come up in this), plus as noted also allow there to be special SAS service to Yankee Stadium for events there.

This why I'd want the Grand Street connection built too. Look at that redundancy: The and all would have the ability to use some portion of SAS as a reroute if necessary.

 

 

We don't need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars destroying city blocks to build something that might get used sometime.

I guess you would have been against the Chrystie Street Connection too? I mean that thing wasn't used for almost 30 years.

 

Surely isn't needed, am I right? /s

[BreeddekalbL]

also while im here what is this barge facility in phase 4?

[onthe1train]

Also, and especially if the (not the one I'm proposing as half of a split ) comes online, that could be the way to have it reach the Bronx via the Concourse line.  

 

I doubt there would ever be a Concourse-2nd Av service. Riders near that area in the Bronx already have the 4 nearby to get to the east side, and there's no point in having a 2nd Av service head to the west side only to bounce back east two stops later. 

 

A more likely scenario would be a service from 207th to the east side, which will pick up commuters coming off NJ Transit buses trying to get to the east side.

[Mysterious2train]

also while im here what is this barge facility in phase 4?

 

A new barge facility would be built on the East River near Pier 6. If built, barges would be used to help remove excavated rock and soil and bring in construction materials during phase 4. Phase 1 only used trucks for that purpose, and at the moment the same is planned for phases 2 and 3 - using barges for phase 4 would cut down on the number of trucks required to remove all the spoils. 

[bobtehpanda]

This why I'd want the Grand Street connection built too. Look at that redundancy: The and all would have the ability to use some portion of SAS as a reroute if necessary.

 

 

I guess you would have been against the Chrystie Street Connection too? I mean that thing wasn't used for almost 30 years.

 

Surely isn't needed, am I right? /s

 

Parts of the Chrystie St connection have been in full, continuous use.

 

You can be as snarky as you want, but a good part of the reason why the Second System never happened is because there was so much money wasted on overengineered solutions to problems in the first system. A great way to never see another system expansion for the next 100 years is to make the current one take up all the MTA's financial resources.

Edited April 24, 2016 by bobtehpanda

[Javier]

If the second system was finished and built on-time, how would the subway system be like today? I know that South 4 St would've been the second Times Square station. Would there be any new lines, and or stations?

[Javier]

[CenSin]

If the second system was finished and built on-time, how would the subway system be like today? I know that South 4 St would've been the second Times Square station. Would there be any new lines, and or stations?

For starters, quasi-express runs would be a lot less common. Forest Hills would most definitely not be a terminal. The Chrystie Street connector might have never been built since the 6 Avenue express tracks would feed into the South 4 Street station along with those from 8 Avenue and Nassau Street. In that case, Williamsburg would probably be highly sought after for the rich transit presence. Staten Island would also be a lot more developed with businesses and a smattering of high-rises along the few subway lines planned for it. We wouldn’t be complaining about non-Manhattan cross-borough lines being needed as there would be plenty of such lines criss-crossing northern Brooklyn and southern Queens.

[Caelestor]

If the second system was finished and built on-time, how would the subway system be like today? I know that South 4 St would've been the second Times Square station. Would there be any new lines, and or stations?

 

The Second System would probably have proceeded as follows:

• Utica Ave line: The 6th Ave express tracks would have continued east under Williamsburg, turning south under Malcolm X Blvd to proceed to Kings Plaza. I doubt that the Worth St line would have ever been constructed, since it would change 8 Av service too much and require an additional river crossing to be built for little utility.
• Queens extensions: Extend the , , and Lefferts Blvd branch of the eastward.
• Second Avenue Subway: The Chrystie St connection would have been built, but instead the Manhattan Bridge and Williamsburg Bridge tracks would feed directly into the SAS.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Caelestor

[Lance]

I guess you would have been against the Chrystie Street Connection too? I mean that thing wasn't used for almost 30 years.

 

Surely isn't needed, am I right? /s

Hate to break it to you, but Chrystie St, even without its intended 2nd Avenue connection, was built with two other reasons in mind. The first was to better distribute the lines coming out of DeKalb Av. Before 1967, everything that flowed through DeKalb Av went primarily up Broadway and occasionally to Centre St. The tracks on the Manhattan Bridge were severely unbalanced with full service on the north tracks and at most rush hour only service on the south/loop tracks. The second was to give riders on the Eastern Division lines some midtown direct service. The fact that the Jamaica-6th Ave connection went unused for almost 35 years after the elimination of the Broadway is irrelevant because it still served a purpose when it was built.

 

Building a 2nd Ave-Central Park West connection simply to be used in the event of emergencies is the epitome of wasteful spending. You also cannot give every rider a one-seat ride.

[Threxx]

Hate to break it to you, but Chrystie St, even without its intended 2nd Avenue connection, was built with two other reasons in mind. The first was to better distribute the lines coming out of DeKalb Av. Before 1967, everything that flowed through DeKalb Av went primarily up Broadway and occasionally to Centre St. The tracks on the Manhattan Bridge were severely unbalanced with full service on the north tracks and at most rush hour only service on the south/loop tracks. The second was to give riders on the Eastern Division lines some midtown direct service. The fact that the Jamaica-6th Ave connection went unused for almost 35 years after the elimination of the Broadway is irrelevant because it still served a purpose when it was built.

 

Building a 2nd Ave-Central Park West connection simply to be used in the event of emergencies is the epitome of wasteful spending. You also cannot give every rider a one-seat ride.

 

If the SAS were to be extended west to St. Nicholas Avenue (reminder that this is unconfirmed and largely hypothetical as well), the existence of the extra "express" tracks between 125th and 145th Streets would provide an easy way to connect CPW to the 125th Street subway. If it can be feasibly done, then it should be done. 

[Lance]

This whole topic outside of the extension to 125th Street/Lexington Ave is completely hypothetical, so that's not a problem here.

 

While it may be possible to connect 2nd Ave to Central Park West, what would be the point? There's a distinct lack of northern terminals from that point. It's either Washington Heights or the Concourse line. The latter is extremely pointless as, assuming it's the running crosstown, it closely mirrors the which provides east side service. Sending it up St. Nicholas Ave to Washington Heights and Inwood, while not an entirely bad idea, just runs trains up there for the sake of doing so.

[Threxx]

This whole topic outside of the extension to 125th Street/Lexington Ave is completely hypothetical, so that's not a problem here.

 

While it may be possible to connect 2nd Ave to Central Park West, what would be the point? There's a distinct lack of northern terminals from that point. It's either Washington Heights or the Concourse line. The latter is extremely pointless as, assuming it's the running crosstown, it closely mirrors the which provides east side service. Sending it up St. Nicholas Ave to Washington Heights and Inwood, while not an entirely bad idea, just runs trains up there for the sake of doing so.

 

One could make the argument that the could use the support since the area up there is growing in recent years, and the isn't the most reliable line in the world.

 

Then again, the also runs up to Washington Heights and is more reliable than the , so it is probably not that necessary right now. In the 30+ years that it would likely take for any 125th Street crosstown to happen, that could change.

[bobtehpanda]

If the SAS were to be extended west to St. Nicholas Avenue (reminder that this is unconfirmed and largely hypothetical as well), the existence of the extra "express" tracks between 125th and 145th Streets would provide an easy way to connect CPW to the 125th Street subway. If it can be feasibly done, then it should be done. 

 

Well, what is the definition of feasible? My definition of it is "technologically possible and financially responsible", which is apparently too restrictive of a condition for some people. Of course everything is possible given enough money, but should hundreds of millions of dollars be going to building a connection that serves no day-to-day purpose, or should it go to rehabbing dozens of stations instead?

This whole topic outside of the extension to 125th Street/Lexington Ave is completely hypothetical, so that's not a problem here.

 

While it may be possible to connect 2nd Ave to Central Park West, what would be the point? There's a distinct lack of northern terminals from that point. It's either Washington Heights or the Concourse line. The latter is extremely pointless as, assuming it's the running crosstown, it closely mirrors the which provides east side service. Sending it up St. Nicholas Ave to Washington Heights and Inwood, while not an entirely bad idea, just runs trains up there for the sake of doing so.

 

It's not even the fact that it mirrors the ; a Third Av route (the most logical SAS extension into the Bronx) also "mirrors" the and . It's the fact that it mirrors the in a serpentine way, providing a faster route for nobody in particular and thus minimizing any sort of relief that could be provided.