Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Caelestor]

I finally had the opportunity to read Appendix B of the FEIS, and here is the relevant information, sans a few emoticons. My comments in bold.

 

As with the Water Street Option, the Nassau Street Option would relieve crowding on the Lexington Avenue Line, but it would leave 1,700 more riders in the AM peak hour on the crowded southbound Lexington Avenue express services and would not bring crowding levels on the express trains below NYCT’s passenger loading guidelines at Grand Central Station, compared with the Water Street Option. On the other hand, the Nassau Street Option would establish increased subway service to the center of the Financial District and would provide extended service to Brooklyn. As a result, it would carry 1,500 more southbound riders and 3,200 more northbound riders in the AM peak hour than would the Water Street Option. Essentially, the reduction in Nassau St ridership from the UES is outweighed by ridership from Brooklyn, at the cost of increased congestion on the in Midtown.

 

When complete, the Nassau Street Option would result in major changes in JMZ train service. Under the preliminary operating plan, trains would be suspended between Broad Street and Bay Parkway, Brooklyn, and and trains would terminate at Chambers Street rather than at Broad Street. While some Second Avenue trains would provide service to Bay Parkway, commuters entering Manhattan from the Williamsburg Bridge would have to transfer trains for access destinations in other parts of Brooklyn. Furthermore, increased traffic on the Nassau Line may cause delays, particularly during peak periods. The Water Street Option would not require changes to existing transit service in this area. Given the reroute of the , the could now presumably terminate at Broad St, with most trains continuing to Brooklyn. That said, more interlining would increase the likelihood of delays on all services.

 

Construction on the Nassau Line would require the suspension of service on trains during late night and/or weekend hours over a two- to three-year period, which would be more severe than any of the disruptions required with the Water Street Option. Like the Water Street Option, the Nassau Street Option would also require disruption of trains. The communities directly affected by these disruptions contain significant populations of minority and low-income residents, which may constitute a significant environmental justice impact. Chinatown and the Lower East Side are currently without BD service due to rehabilitation work on the Manhattan Bridge, and JMZ service via the Williamsburg Bridge was only recently restored following a year-long outage. The Kenmare St connection probably leads to too much service suspension, which is why I favor a direct connection between Chatham Sq and Fulton St via Park Row. If this isn't feasible, then the Nassau St option is probably not doable.

 

Although the Nassau Street Option could provide sufficient capacity for basic Second Avenue Subway service (12 trains per hour between 63rd Street and the Financial District), it could not handle the future growth that could be provided with the Water Street Option, unless there was a corresponding reduction in service. The Water Street option would also have sufficient capacity to allow for a future Queens service via the 63rd Street connection, while the Nassau Street Option would not since additional trains could not operate on the Nassau Street Line without a reduction in existing service to Brooklyn. In addition, the Nassau Street Option would not meet the project’s goal of providing new service to areas east of existing subways, including South Street Seaport, Chatham Square, and along the densely developed Water Street corridor. Less of a concern with the being rerouted, but probably the biggest reason to support Water St. I support day one Brooklyn service, but not at the cost of losing the future Queens service via 63rd St.

 

The estimated construction costs for the Nassau Street Option are lower in part because the existing stations would not be renovated to the same standards as the new stations proposed for the Water Street Option. For example, while they would be ADA-compliant for altered stations, they would not meet the accessibility standards for new construction as would the new Water Street stations because of the constraints of the existing infrastructure. To renovate the stations to these standards would require additional surface and underground construction, resulting in greater impacts and a considerable increase in associated costs. Further, it may not be feasible to expand the existing Nassau Street Stations, especially the Canal Street Station, to accommodate the significant increase in users of these stations that would result from the addition of Second Avenue Subway riders. The FEIS also states that Water St is more expensive by $360 million, though I think it will be more expensive by a few billion dollars, since this doesn't include the cost of the future East River tunnel and the overruns associated with expensive new stations nowadays. Granted, this number is far lower than I had assumed.

 

...

 

Although it is unlikely that any buildings would require demolition with the Nassau Street Option, significant underpinning and other ground improvement techniques would be required. These activities would result in temporary displacement. Some of the affected buildings are occupied by tenants that are part of the cluster of wholesale supply merchants, which are characteristic of the area. Displacement of these businesses could have a significant adverse economic effect on individual businesses as well as the overall character of the neighborhood. In addition, the Nassau Street Option would be expected to generate fewer jobs and secondary economic activity than would the Water Street Option. Since the economics support the Water St option, it looks like this is probably the option that will be built.

 

 

Pretty much confirms what people have been discussing.

[R10 2952]

Any update on Phase 1 progress? I know 72nd Street is behind, and if you've been to Lexington-63rd recently, you can see the renovation's far from finished.  Won't be surprised if they push the opening of the east mezzanine to summer 2017.

Edited June 19, 2016 by R10 2952

[Around the Horn]

Any update on Phase 1 progress? I know 72nd Street is behind, and if you've been to Lexington-63rd recently, you can see the renovation's far from finished.  Won't be surprised if they push the opening of the east mezzanine to summer 2017.

Really? The MTA CPOC docs say that they're finished at Lex-63rd and are now doing testing (and installing "architectural finishes")

[R10 2952]

Take a trip to the station and you'll find the other side's still boarded up, the new staircases are still unfinished, and they have yet put the "architectural finishes" together.  They haven't finished installing the metal panels, there's plenty of exposed wiring in the ceiling, and the eastern mezzanine is yet to be opened.  A cluster of fvck if you ask me...

[Around the Horn]

Take a trip to the station and you'll find the other side's still boarded up, the new staircases are still unfinished, and they have yet put the "architectural finishes" together.  They haven't finished installing the metal panels, there's plenty of exposed wiring in the ceiling, and the eastern mezzanine is yet to be opened.  A cluster of fvck if you ask me...

They might (this is a guess) have removed the metal panels and exposed the wires during the testing phase and will reinstall them once completed. As for the staircases and mezzanines, I have no idea what's going on there.

[Metro CSW]

I'll give it until the end of the summer for completion of the said station. On March, it was mentioned in the board meetings that Lex-63 would be delayed due to the electrical issues related to the east ancillary entrance and to be completed by October of this year. IIRC

 

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[R10 2952]

On March, it was mentioned in the board meetings that Lex-63 would be delayed due to the electrical issues related to the east ancillary entrance and to be completed by October of this year. IIRC

 

 

HA, I knew it was going to end badly the moment they decided to screw up the existing shaft and build it as elevators instead of escalators.  Last-minute changes that really shouldn't have been made.   But that's no surprise. MTA- going our own damn way...

Edited June 21, 2016 by R10 2952

[bobtehpanda]

Lex-63 doesn't actually need the new entrance to be open to operate, though...

[Metro CSW]

Lex-63 doesn't actually need the new entrance to be open to operate, though...

Very true, that's just a minor issue with the remodifying of the station I touching upon. Everything else is on schedule and ready actually lol.

 

Also, the boards are staying up for testing and safety purposes til the opening date....

 

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[Around the Horn]

HA, I knew it was going to end badly the moment they decided to screw up the existing shaft and build it as elevators instead of escalators.  Last-minute changes that really shouldn't have been made.   But that's no surprise. MTA- going our own damn way...

Actually, The shaft accommodated either escalators or elevators. There's a image from the MTA that was a while back that illustrated what they were doing...

[RTS9000]

Actually, The shaft accommodated either escalators or elevators. There's a image from the MTA that was a while back that illustrated what they were doing...

 

Which was converting the shaft from escalator/elevator use to only elevator use, iirc.

[BreeddekalbL]

i saw an article that while the   is in a rush to finish it seems that the contractor is in no rush

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/contractor-no-hurry-finish-ave-subway-project-article-1.2681210

well start penalizing them

[rbrome]

I do prefer the alternative plan to route Phase 4 along a path closer to the eastern edge of Manhattan. The LES just gets totally screwed.

 

 

I agree, but I'd start even further north.

 

Alphabet City has been a complete transit desert for too long. The East Village is pretty well-served by the 6, F and L. But there's a real gap around Tompkins Square and to the south-east.

 

Why not run the SAS so it crosses 14th at Avenue A, connecting with the 1st Ave station on the L, then a new station around Ave A and 5th/6th (bringing much-needed service to that part of the East Village and Alphabet City), then connect with Delancy on the F instead of Grand on the B/D?

[Jose Angel]

I don't think it is a great idea since the MTA will need to put more  trains since the   train was supposed to replace the  to Astoria. And the  does not goes to Astoria in weekends. In my opinion, they should've extended maybe the    to maybe via the  to south ferry or go to brooklyn. Or extend the  to go via the  to Woodlawn since the it's way too busy and the   could connect at 161 Street. But the   can be express but in game days, it can go local from Burnside Avenue to 161 Street then Harlem 148 Street or terminate at 148 Street Weekends. And when there is delays the  can go via the  line or the   can go via the  line to 161 Street. The  in the bronx as express can replace the  . 

[LTA1992]

I don't think it is a great idea since the MTA will need to put more  trains since the   train was supposed to replace the  to Astoria. And the  does not goes to Astoria in weekends. In my opinion, they should've extended maybe the    to maybe via the  to south ferry or go to brooklyn. Or extend the  to go via the  to Woodlawn since the it's way too busy and the   could connect at 161 Street. But the   can be express but in game days, it can go local from Burnside Avenue to 161 Street then Harlem 148 Street or terminate at 148 Street Weekends. And when there is delays the  can go via the  line or the   can go via the  line to 161 Street. The  in the bronx as express can replace the  . 

You're obviously late to the party. The  will return in the fall. When that occurs, it as well as the and  will return to their pre-2010 service pattern until SAS Phase I opens.

Edited June 28, 2016 by LTA1992

[Union Tpke]

I agree, but I'd start even further north.

 

Alphabet City has been a complete transit desert for too long. The East Village is pretty well-served by the 6, F and L. But there's a real gap around Tompkins Square and to the south-east.

 

Why not run the SAS so it crosses 14th at Avenue A, connecting with the 1st Ave station on the L, then a new station around Ave A and 5th/6th (bringing much-needed service to that part of the East Village and Alphabet City), then connect with Delancy on the F instead of Grand on the B/D?

 

Or just have the branch of the SAS to Utica have a stop at Tompkins Square Park.

[rbrome]

Well, that'd be wonderful  ...but, sadly, doesn't seem quite as realistic. 

[Mysterious2train]

The Second Avenue Subway Community Information Center just opened its 5th and newest exhibit: "Second Avenue Subway: Phase 2 and Beyond", 

 

Quoth the MTA:

 

 

[T]he new exhibit gives an in-depth look into the next phase of the Second Avenue Subway. Highlighting the history, the construction process, and the connectivity to the existing system, this exhibit illustrates how important Phase 2 is, not only for Manhattan, but for the entire NYC Metropolitan area. 

 

The interactive exhibit, comprised of four iPad stations that control high-definition monitors, features short videos highlighting construction methodology, project history, and vignettes about each of the destinations riders can visit along the line, which will be extended from its current route north along Second Avenue from 63rd to 96th Streets.

 

 

After the endless back-in-forth in this thread about what the alignment should be, will this exhibit change anybody's mind? I have to go see it myself. Here's the MTA's article. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by Mysterious2train

[Around the Horn]

The July updates have been posted to the MTA website and we're even closer to an on time opening.

 

Highlights:

-The entire project is 95% complete (yes you read that correctly. There is only 5% percent of the work left)

- The ancillary buildings have been completed(the inside and the machinery. Wall cladding on the exterior is still being installed) and will begin testing of the emergency ventilation fans in the next few weeks.

-Lex-63rd is 98% percent complete.

-Sidewalk restoration is occurring throughout the work zones.

- Only 72 Street lags behind at 87.2% complete.

 

It's happening, boys!

[S78 via Hylan]

Where were they posted? I couldn't find them.

[Mysterious2train]

The July updates have been posted to the MTA website and we're even closer to an on time opening.

 

-Lex-63rd is 98% percent complete.

 

It's happening, boys!

 

 

Releasing a newsletter every month is interesting because it shows just how slowly the work is going at Lex-63rd! Even reading the announcements section makes it sounds like there was little to no progress. Can't wait to see almost the exact same wording in next month's newsletter (Maybe the plaza by the new station entrances will finally open, if we're lucky - MTACC has been "finalizing turnover to the Royale" for months now)

 

Where were they posted? I couldn't find them. 

 

Here's the direct link to the newsletters and other documents: http://web.mta.info/capital/docs_sas_alt.html

 

Or, go to mta.info, scroll down to the "Building for the Future" section, click on "Second Avenue Subway" then on the SAS page click on "Publications" on the left side. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Mysterious2train

[Tonyboy515]

How about extending the and to Broadway/125 Street

so it would also stop at:

5 Avenue

Lenox Avenue

St. Nicholas Avenue

Broadway

[Around the Horn]

How about extending the and to Broadway/125 Street

so it would also stop at:

5 Avenue

Lenox Avenue

St. Nicholas Avenue

Broadway

You must be new to this forum cause we've mentioned this ALOT!

 

 

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[Union Tpke]

How about extending the and to Broadway/125 Street

so it would also stop at:

5 Avenue

Lenox Avenue

St. Nicholas Avenue

Broadway

 

Just don't add a stop at Fifth Avenue and the plan is good.

[Lance]

You must be new to this forum cause we've mentioned this ALOT!

 

 

Sent from my iPod touch using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

*checks username*

 

Yes, he's new if his handle descriptor and number of posts are any indication. Plus, this is a 238 page thread. I don't know how many people will sift through all that to see if their idea has been mentioned before. I'm just grateful he hasn't decided to create a brand new thread for this like quite a few other new members have done as of late.

 

All in all, it's not a big deal.