IND Second System

[Trainmaster5]

Has any part of the IND Second system ever had ground broken and then been abandoned ?. Sort of like what happened to the original tunnels on the Upper East Side under Second Ave. I ask because as an A division T/O I see bellmouths for IRT expansion at the Utica Ave station at the south end of the station which curve toward Utica Ave itself ( the station isn't really under Utica), and head south. I know that there is a foundation for a Utica Ave/Fulton St. station on the (A)/© lines and is an orphan now. Are there any other remnants around ?

[SubwayGuy]

See http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4385

 

[N-Trizzy2609]

Dont forget the Roosevelt Avenue Terminal Level. The only subway station that was completed. Not to forget the bellmouths just down the line right at the end of the LIRR Rockaway Line

[MTR Admiralty]

Has any part of the IND Second system ever had ground broken and then been abandoned ?. Sort of like what happened to the original tunnels on the Upper East Side under Second Ave. I ask because as an A division T/O I see bellmouths for IRT expansion at the Utica Ave station at the south end of the station which curve toward Utica Ave itself ( the station isn't really under Utica), and head south. I know that there is a foundation for a Utica Ave/Fulton St. station on the (A)/© lines and is an orphan now. Are there any other remnants around ?

 

Plenty...

The only station that was actually finished is the Roosevelt Avenue terminal (on the upper level of the IND Station in Queens), it has trackways but no trains were ever run on it. It was supposed to connect to the Rockaway LIRR thru the White Pot Jct.

Other stations had space reserved in existing stations while the original IND system was being built, such as the Rutgers Street Station on the planned IND Worth Street Line. Above the IND Rutgers Street line at East Broadway there is a dim mezzanine. Down the centre there are columns marking the centre. There are doors on one end that actually open up to a small segment of trackway. A bellmouth was built south of Canal Street on the 8th Avenue line and was supposed to be where the trains would come off the 8th avenue trunk and turn onto Worth Street, East Broadway.

Space was reserved for the 2nd Avenue line at 2nd Avenue, look above at that end and there is a higher ceiling. Also at 2nd Avenue, the centre tracks continue east of the station and would have crossed the river. Only a segment to Ave A was finished.

Of course, east of Euclid Avenue, four tracks continue to somewhere. The Liberty Avenue connection rises to the left of these tracks. Rumours say the tracks lead to 76th Street.

The 63rd Street tunnel was planned as a tunnel under 61st Street. It was supposed to connect the 6th Avenue line with the 2nd Avenue line.

 

Other stations (BMT) that reserved space for future infrastructure (non-Second System) are:

-At Bowery, high ceilings were reserved for a proposed 3rd Avenue subway

-At Chambers Street (Centre), space was reserved for the Brooklyn Bridge connection

-At the lower level of Canal Street (Bridge), bellmouths point to a planned Canal Street crosstown line.

-At 57th Street (Broadway), two tracks would turn west from the express tracks I believe and would have served the UWS via 8th Avenue and Morningside Avenue. It could have been connected to the CPW line.

-At Jamaica Centre, tracks would have continued to serve Southeast Queens. A small segment was built to accommodate this purpose.

[Union Tpke]

-At 57th Street (Broadway), two tracks would turn west from the express tracks I believe and would have served the UWS via 8th Avenue and Morningside Avenue. It could have been connected to the CPW line.

It wasn't going to be connected to the CPW line, the BMT was competing to get the line so they built to stubs north of the local tracks not express tracks to try to get the advantage. 

http://web.archive.org/web/20120204100552/http://nyctrackbook.com/Images/Updates/P.14.pdf

[realizm]

It wasn't going to be connected to the CPW line, the BMT was competing to get the line so they built to stubs north of the local tracks not express tracks to try to get the advantage. 

http://web.archive.org/web/20120204100552/http://nyctrackbook.com/Images/Updates/P.14.pdf

 

The other proposal (you mentioned the first one) from the Dual Contracts to be awarded to the BMT was to construct the same CPW line but it was the BMT that was to operate the line and via Broadway, in competition with the IRT. Then Mayor Hylan came along and killed everything. Today as we can see the line is IND trackage. The other option was to build the line under Central Park to a point in the vicinity of 125th Street, also to be operated by the BMT.

 

Edit: Click for larger pic. This was the 1911 BMT proposal. Note the route proposed up Central Park west along Broadway from it's BMT Manhattan Trunk Line. It is also documented in this E-book: http://books.google.com/books?id=lpEgAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

 

[realizm]

And another proposal by the BMT for the 8th Ave/Amsterdam Ave Line. This was the one Mayor Hylan killed with the IND 8th Ave/CPW. That was the purpose of the spurs that exist @ 57th street now connected to the 63rd Street line for the SAS.

 

http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/New_Subways:_Proposed_Additions_to_Rapid_Transit_System..._(1922)

 

 

 

[bobtehpanda]

And another proposal by the BMT for the 8th Ave/Amsterdam Ave Line. This was the one Mayor Hylan killed with the IND 8th Ave/CPW. That was the purpose of the spurs that exist @ 57th street now connected to the 63rd Street line for the SAS.

 

http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/New_Subways:_Proposed_Additions_to_Rapid_Transit_System..._(1922)

 

 

 

 

Another thing to note: The Crosstown Line proposed here (and killed by Hylan) was a much better proposal than the IND line that eventually got built. Here, there is one notable difference.

 

The Crosstown Line shown would have connected to what we now know as the Franklin Av Shuttle, which saw regular trains running through to the Brighton Line in the early 20th century. It would have allowed for quick travel to Eastern and Southern Brooklyn. For passengers wishing to head to areas west of the Brighton Line, they would've transferred to the Myrtle Av El. The line was planned to be entirely elevated, and at one point was considered for an extension to the Astoria Line, where it would've extended north using the route of the Triboro and gone to 125th St as a crosstown line.

 

What instead got built was a through connection to a Queens Blvd Line and a line to Downtown Brooklyn. This happened because of Hylan's anti-BMT rage - the line was instead diverted west to Downtown Brooklyn, to run the Myrtle Av El out of business. (It worked.) So instead of two logical lines heading from Queens to Brooklyn, we now have one line that doesn't do a very good job of saving time over a Manhattan journey, and a sort of "stunted" line that until very recently went from Downtown Manhattan to Ridgewood.

 

Also, that's a great find for source material!

[Dan05979]

A great 5 year bump, nice.

[peacemak3r]

A great 5 year bump, nice.

 

Astounding that no one even noticed.

[realizm]

Shit happens. Just another night on the internet.

[Trainmaster5]

Astounding that no one even noticed.

Obviously the OP noticed it. Had me shaking my head there for a while.

[4P3607]

I'm suprised no one listed South 4 Street... The 6 track incomplete "major junction" station sitting above the North side of the Broadway Station on the . (For the ones that don't know, it really seems astounding that a station of which half isn't used and deteriorating (and has very low ridership) Is below what would have been one of the biggest Subway Junctions in the 5 boros). Instead, it's half-built. The platforms aren't finished, there are no signals, the trackways are empty, each end of the trackways ends at a concrete wall, and the 6-track station isn't even 6 tracks the entire length. Towards the south end, There are signal rooms, but not all 6 trackways are there.

 

The station used to be home to a few homeless people until 2009 when a sting operation was placed. A gate was put so no one could get in, and the ladder that homeless people used is gone. There are still remants of homeless people living in there, along with LOTS of graffiti.

 

The IND Crosstown line seems to be the line with the most IND Second system connections. Just to think, if it were built, Broadway would be as busy as Metropolitan Avenue, one stop down (Probably busier). The station wouldn't look like a shithole, and there would be no walls at the North end. Instead, there would be transfer passages to South 4. (Interesting to note, the abandoned portion of the mezanine at Broadway has no connecitons to the South 4 Street station shell. To exit from South 4, one would have to go downstairs, and then back up through the abandoned mezanine).

 

Bedford-Nostrand Avenues would be busier, and the middle track would be alot more used. Trains would either terminate there, or continue down the crosstown line. (I'm not sure what that proposed line is called, all I know is that there are two tracks that extend past the North end of the station, and drop down below while the crosses above and curves to the North). 

 

Classon Avenue would probably house layups with the middle track. It's not clear what purpose that trackway would serve, most likely it would be for layups. (Note that there is no middle track between Bedford-Nostrand Avenue and Classon Avenue. Switches to the mainline would have joined the two between the stations).

 

 

Now, a few notes about the East Broadway Station on the . Seems like another un-renovated, innocent, not-so-used station, right? Not what you think. This station was supposed to connect with another station two levels up from the East Broadway station. It would have been called the Essex Street station, part of the IND Worth Street line. The full layout is:

Fare Control

Mezanine

Essex St station

Mezanine

East Broadway Station

This is what it would have been if the Worth Street line was actually built. (I know this was already explained, just thought I would put in my version).

Anyways, today, only four out of the five mezanines remain in service. The mez above the E Bway Station is closed off. (That's why the staircase seems twice as long from the Platform). The current layout is:

 

Fare Control

Mezanine

Mezanine (Essex St station)

Mezanine (Closed)

East Broadway Station 

 

One can see the space for where the Essex street station would be. In the middle of the center mezanine, there are three rows of pillars that are different from the rest. The pillars are painted blue, meanwhile the others are tiled white. Also, in that area, there is a door that doesn't look used. Behind that door are two trackways that extend about 15 feet. the "room" drops about 5 feet down (however far down a trackway is from the platform). It has some storage equipment in there, along with a sign in the back "No Smoking". This is the only section built of the "station". 

It is rumored that the station is two levels, the level above also has the same pattern in the ceiling (for the trackways). There is no door though. 

 

See here for more information on East Broadway (Website credits to mtattrain): http://indsecondsystem.weebly.com/essex-street---east-broadway.html

[MTA Bus]

Let's all agree that if the IND second system was built like it was supposed to, the subway would be very different.

[Vistausss]

 

I'm suprised no one listed South 4 Street... The 6 track incomplete "major junction" station sitting above the North side of the Broadway Station on the . (For the ones that don't know, it really seems astounding that a station of which half isn't used and deteriorating (and has very low ridership) Is below what would have been one of the biggest Subway Junctions in the 5 boros). Instead, it's half-built. The platforms aren't finished, there are no signals, the trackways are empty, each end of the trackways ends at a concrete wall, and the 6-track station isn't even 6 tracks the entire length. Towards the south end, There are signal rooms, but not all 6 trackways are there.

 

The station used to be home to a few homeless people until 2009 when a sting operation was placed. A gate was put so no one could get in, and the ladder that homeless people used is gone. There are still remants of homeless people living in there, along with LOTS of graffiti.

 

I don't see much graffiti in South 4 St station: http://www.hopetunnel.org/subway/nyct/s4/index.html

Don't exxagarate.

[Fresh Pond]

I don't see much graffiti in South 4 St station: http://www.hopetunnel.org/subway/nyct/s4/index.html

Don't exxagarate.

Those photos are quite old (a few years at least)

[Dan05979]

I'm getting a tour of the Utica ave station soon. I can't wait. The station above the A line Utica...

[Vistausss]

Those photos are quite old (a few years at least)

 

And the guy I quoted said theres graffiti dating back to the time you could reach that area, which was before 2009 when they really closed it off. So those pictures are as old as the time you could reach that area.

[RailRunRob]

Astounding that no one even noticed.

Been happening the last few days. I just noticed.