Rockaway Residents Rally For Return Of Abandoned Subway Line

[Wallyhorse]

Too much service confusion would occur; we just need an existing express or local train ( or preferably) from the Rockaways, up along the line, and to Midtown Manhattan.

I did it that way because the is a long route as it is and the 's need for a yard.

 

The can replace it along QB and be the Rockaway route, but in doing so and returning it to Ditmars, the needs to have yard access, which was why it and the were flip-flopped in 1987.  In this case, that's why the flip of Brooklyn terminals between the and , specifically so the can use Coney Island Yard since the has Concourse Yard.  This also would have the take the 's current role while the takes the 's current role (as since when this would happen, the SAS would be running) with the weekends and late nights supplementing SAS service by going with the to 96th/2nd.

 

People may be confused at first, but like with all changes, they would adjust.

[MattTrain]

I did it that way because the is a long route as it is and the 's need for a yard.

 

The can replace it along QB and be the Rockaway route, but in doing so and returning it to Ditmars, the needs to have yard access, which was why it and the were flip-flopped in 1987.  In this case, that's why the flip of Brooklyn terminals between the and , specifically so the can use Coney Island Yard since the has Concourse Yard.  This also would have the take the 's current role while the takes the 's current role (as since when this would happen, the SAS would be running) with the weekends and late nights supplementing SAS service by going with the to 96th/2nd.

Can you stop bringing up the ,they don't need it! Two   s are fine! If anything the riders went through it last fall, and they're doing fine just with two sections on weekdays! Renaming the Queens section the only causes confusion! 

[Wallyhorse]

You and I are talking about two different things:

This discussion on the Rockaway line is about AFTER the SAS opens (since even if the Rockaway line is re-activated, the SAS will open first), which will be LONG after Montague has reopened and the (or whatever lines use the Montague tunnel) has returned to normal.

The WILL have to come back when the SAS opens in 2016-early '17 because the is going to be going at that time to 96th Street and 2nd Avenue (and eventually 125th/Lexington Avenue).  Initially the would likely return to its old route (Whitehall-Ditmars) that it had before it was cut in 2010, but if the Rockaway branch does start off of the QB line, the scenario at that point (probably 2018 at the earliest) would be best for the to take over that line and run to Rockaway Park because it would NOT have anywhere near as long a route (beginning at Whitehall Street) that the does.  That means the has to be moved on its northern (Queens) end to accommodate the being moved to the QB line, and that means switching it to Astoria in this case.  In turn, in order for the to have direct access to a yard, it also has to switch Brooklyn terminals.  In this case, it's easiest to do so with the since the is based out of Concourse Yard anyway, meaning the would run on the West End and the would see its southern terminal switched to 95th Street-Bay Ridge.

This has ZERO to do with the current Montauge shutdown, as that will be long over well before any of these changes happen.

 

[Culver]

Or it would be appreciated by locals and serve to enrich the community while also attracting local small businesses. Something to celebrate.

All I can do is laugh at this. I'm sure the locals would appreciate an empty elevated park way more than being able to get places faster.

The only people who support this are the suburbanite-wannabe douchebags in Rego and FHG, and that's only because they fear reactivating the ROW for rail would bring poor people and minorities (who apparently have nothing better to do than take the train to FHG and Rego to scare people who live there?) to their neighborhood.

[MHV9218]

Nobody is arguing that a subway would not benefit the community. But you'd have to be a bit daft to ignore the effect that smart urban planning has have and can continue to have on communities. 

[Grand Concourse]

But it's a rr row. Sure it needs a lot of rebuilding, but at least it won't be as expensive as tunneling under Woodhaven blvd. I think that if there are empty lots in that area, they should fix those up and turn those into parks. Or even use eminent domain to relocate a few homeowners to build a bigger park. Losing a row is worse especially for a borough lacking in decent crosstown services.

=

wally, just stop. The moment you said 'swap the D and R southern terminals' was the last straw.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Also, if a tunnel was to be built, what line would you send down the Branch? The would make it way too long. The would be going in almost a full loop, and also make that pretty long as well. This is why leaving it at 63 Drive would seem to be the sensible option.

 

There would the problem with the crowds, you'd have alot of people walking from the terminal to the 63 Drive station. Also, they'd have to make 63 Drive ADA Accessable since people would start to complain. I bet making that station accessable is alot cheaper than a subway tunnel though...

 

My ideas: Extend the Rockaway Park shuttle to 63 Drive, and call it the  . seems to be the most sensibile letter since it would run with another 8th Ave line, and the used to run in the Rockaways anyway. It can use 300' trains since I don't think the LIRR platforms would handle 600' trains. Also, if the majority of the neighborhood allows, and there's enough money, then a subway tunnel can be built to connect it to the Queens Blvd line. But as I said, where would this line go? (There's the other option of just making another underground station and make 63 Drive into a complex, but that would be too costly and complicated).

 

63 Drive can be an island platform station, and there would be walkways to the street by where the underpass for the LIRR is. Walking to the QBL station can be a problem since it is quite far, but people can rely on the Q38. (Make a bus stop right where the station exit is, and put a few extra buses serving that area that can short-turn. The Q38 is also a good idea since it connects with the Q52/3, which people can use to take to other lines, or stations on that line).

Yes. Extending the would make it way too long, especially if it were to go all the way to Rockaway Park. But the wouldn't be too long, and it's really not that big of a deal if the line looks almost like a full loop. The Q38 bus already runs a giant U-shape route from Corona to Rego Park. While your proposal is a good one, it will almost certainly need to connect with the existing QB trains at either the 63rd Drive or Woodhaven Blvd stations, because train riders will not want to make the walk or wait for a Q38 from the LIRR right-of-way to Queens Blvd to get on the local trains there, then have to make yet another transfer at Roosevelt for the , or . And that will require new construction of new tracks and a new platform underground because the trains will have to be able to reverse direction without messing up the existing QB services.

 

As said before (this assumes the SAS would be open before the Rockaway Branch):

 

returns, running from Whitehall Street-Rockaway Park...

And that's all that's necessary. No need to mess up existing , and service just to accommodate this service. It wouldn't be that long of a route and it's not impossible to run two Broadway lines on the Queens Blvd local tracks, as long as you're not planning on running them at 15 tph each. The only problem with this is that you can't run the alone in Astoria without significantly beefing up its rush hour service.

[Culver]

Nobody is arguing that a subway would not benefit the community. But you'd have to be a bit daft to ignore the effect that smart urban planning has have and can continue to have on communities. 

Smart urban planning is good, and wasting a ROW on a strip park that is inside another park area for half its distance is not smart urban planning. It's a novelty project for a handful of morons.

[bobtehpanda]

The only problem with this is that you can't run the alone in Astoria without significantly beefing up its rush hour service.

 

For a QBL/Woodhaven to run at any meaningful frequency would require the cutting of Astoria Line services, and those are already full as it is.

[Vistausss]

For a QBL/Woodhaven to run at any meaningful frequency would require the cutting of Astoria Line services, and those are already full as it is.

 

We could always keep the at Astoria with the , like it is now. Its not like SAS needs the , they could always send something different down there...

[bobtehpanda]

We could always keep the at Astoria with the , like it is now. Its not like SAS needs the , they could always send something different down there...

 

The 60th St tube is already full. Something has to give at some point if you're going to add in another service.

 

Also, the SAS is being tied directly into the Broadway tracks at 63rd St. Shoving a third service into the 6th Av Line is not doable, and with an initial projected ridership of 200K riders, making it a shuttle would be an absolute joke.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

For a QBL/Woodhaven to run at any meaningful frequency would require the cutting of Astoria Line services, and those are already full as it is.

Agreed. Better to have the , which can more frequently, run to/from the Rockaway Branch.

 

We could always keep the at Astoria with the , like it is now. Its not like SAS needs the , they could always send something different down there...

Like what?

[Grand Concourse]

Yeah, right now the sas is just a handful of stops. logically the Q is gonna be extended to serve it. The T will be decades away from being formed. The N is hopeless to have more frequent service, so bringing back the W works fine to go to astoria.

=

Or they could extend the G as keeping it away from 71st will allow that station to relay just two locals, but reduce the need to add any burden to the 60th st tunnel.

Before they extend anything to the rockaways, they should probably extend the rock park s first and then integrate it to qb.

[Vistausss]

But then the wouldn't avoid Manhattan anymore

[RollOver]

The more frequent , and/or service would work but its just that during the morning hours the (like pretty much every other line in the system) gets empty after many commuters got off at the Manhattan and/or Brooklyn CBD destinations via the Broadway line. That's why it makes sense to bring back the . I mean we're talking about how logical the is and that they wouldn't want to waste money on more frequent service southbound through 4th Avenue and Sea Beach unless there's a good logical reason to do so.

[Fresh Pond]

The more frequent , and/or service would work but its just that during the morning hours the (like pretty much every other line in the system) gets empty after many commuters got off at the Manhattan and/or Brooklyn CBD destinations via the Broadway line. That's why it makes sense to bring back the . I mean we're talking about how logical the is and that they wouldn't want to waste money on more frequent service southbound through 4th Avenue and Sea Beach unless there's a good logical reason to do so.

...and that's where you're wrong. With the , there is no such thing as logic. What makes sense to you and me makes absolutely no sense in the (MTA)'s eyes.

[RollOver]

...and that's where you're wrong. With the , there is no such thing as logic. What makes sense to you and me makes absolutely no sense in the (MTA)'s eyes.

 

So then for example why do you think they will leave the   as 8-cars for the next 40+ years?

 

I just explain why the can't be increased and why they wouldn't want to waste money by running many empty trains through the Brighton or Sea Beach branches. I'm not trying to make it sound like there's a rule saying that the  needs to be brought back or that the can't run more often.

 

By your post, I guess this means that numbers don't involve logic at all. If that was the case, then the would have been running every ten minutes on middays and evenings while serving Astoria alone (and local in Manhattan) while the continues to short turns at 57th 24/7.

[bobtehpanda]

But then the wouldn't avoid Manhattan anymore

 

I think he means the to Rockaway. It isn't currently possible to send the through Manhattan in its northern section.

[R32 3838]

So then for example why do you think they will leave the as 8-cars for the next 40+ years?

 

I just explain why the can't be increased and why they wouldn't want to waste money by running many empty trains through the Brighton or Sea Beach branches. I'm not trying to make it sound like there's a rule saying that the needs to be brought back or that the can't run more often.

 

By your post, I guess this means that numbers don't involve logic at all. If that was the case, then the would have been running every ten minutes on middays and evenings while serving Astoria alone (and local in Manhattan) while the continues to short turns at 57th 24/7.

Reason why the will stay 8 cars is due to 207th St inspection barn only fitting 8 cars, unless they go with that plan making 207th all A division yard and shops for the and have both the A/C come out of pit kin yard, and has no logic, if they did the would still be here along with more R32s

[Cait Sith]

I'm confused as to how this discussion turned into talking about the ....

Anyway....

 

As said before (this assumes the SAS would be open before the Rockaway Branch):

 returns, running from Whitehall Street-Rockaway Park and replaces the   on Queens Boulevard.

 and   swap Brooklyn terminals, with the   running 95th Street-Bay Ridge to 205th Street in the Bronx and the   running via West End from Coney Island-Ditmars Boulevard and the   returns to being a 24/7 line.  This is done so the   has a yard in Brooklyn since the   has Concourse Yard.

 

 takes over the current   's role of running to Astoria on weekdays (5:30 AM-10:30 PM) and at all other times goes with the   to 96th Street-2nd Avenue to supplement SAS service nights and weekends.

 

With all due respect, please stop spreading your fantasy crap into every thread known to this forum.

 

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I can tell you firsthand that folks out here and out by the Rockaways want more rail service, the only folks that want this park are the folks past Atlantic Avenue heading North including those gated communities along the way. There was a community meeting at M.S 226 a while ago about this idea and a ton of people from Beach Channel/The Rockaways and areas around here pitched for more rail service, meanwhile, those who don't rely on the or any source of public transportation pitched for the park.  

 

As for a potential park enriching the neighborhoods, that actually depends on where. Between Rockaway & Atlantic? Not at all. North of that? Sure! Anyone who takes the Q11/21/52/53 would notice the HUGE difference in the people and the surroundings in a second.

 

As a person who has to rely on services.....or lackthereof, I would rather have more rail service than a park. The lack of rail service in that part of the area is also a reason as to why all the buses are jam packed in the first place.

[R32sdabest]

I'm confused as to how this discussion turned into talking about the ....

 

Anyway....

 

 

 

 

With all due respect, please stop spreading your fantasy crap into every thread known to this forum.

 

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I can tell you firsthand that folks out here and out by the Rockaways want more rail service, the only folks that want this park are the folks past Atlantic Avenue heading North including those gated communities along the way. There was a community meeting at M.S 226 a while ago about this idea and a ton of people from Beach Channel/The Rockaways and areas around here pitched for more rail service, meanwhile, those who don't rely on the or any source of public transportation pitched for the park.

 

As for a potential park enriching the neighborhoods, that actually depends on where. Between Rockaway & Atlantic? Not at all. North of that? Sure! Anyone who takes the Q11/21/52/53 would notice the HUGE difference in the people and the surroundings in a second.

 

As a person who has to rely on services.....or lackthereof, I would rather have more rail service than a park. The lack of rail service in that part of the area is also a reason as to why all the buses are jam packed in the first place.

So right! We need transportation in tht area! Forget the park!

[Mysterious2train]

I'm confused as to how this discussion turned into talking about the ....

 

Because people are suggesting the as a potential option for Rockaway Branch service (I know it's not the best idea, but it's no worse than the suggestions to send the or down to the Rockaways)

 

...and that's where you're wrong. With the , there is no such thing as logic. What makes sense to you and me makes absolutely no sense in the (MTA)'s eyes.

 

Other than taking a mandatory potshot at the MTA, is there any reason to think they would not want to bring back the ? Without leaving somewhere with less service, the only other real option would be to increase service on the or and split them between terminals, which is confusing, and somewhat unnecessary, like RollOverMyHead said. I don't think the folks in charge at the MTA are as dumb as we like to think.

 

So then for example why do you think they will leave the   as 8-cars for the next 40+ years?

 

Because it's cheaper. Making the full length = more cars that need to be bought = more $$$ spent

 

Reason why the will stay 8 cars is due to 207th St inspection barn only fitting 8 cars

 

It's cheaper to keep the at 8 cars. I don't know how yard stuff works, but the and were both full-length for the past couple of summers, so is 207 St not being able to fit full-length trains really an issue?

[Grand Concourse]

Sure keeping the C at 8cars is cheaper, but it limits flexibility. At least with R32s you can cut or add 2 cars to the train for either line. With sets, it's one line only unless A riders don't mind a 480' long train.

Sure being new train, they won't have much issues at first, but down the line, I wouldn't be surprised if they need to do the summer swaps again with ENY so the trains don't overheat. I think that by now we could do without the stairway to platform dash to the closest car.

Sure the Brooklyn end probably doesn't see as much service demand compared to Manhattan, so maybe they could short turn some C trains at WTC (longer trains, but fewer trains running = same total number of cars total).

 

Vistausss: my G would be routed via QB local, so it would not go thru Manhattan. It would be sorta like a U service with QB being the link to each 'crosstown' segments.

[Fresh Pond]

Other than taking a mandatory potshot at the MTA, is there any reason to think they would not want to bring back the ? Without leaving somewhere with less service, the only other real option would be to increase service on the or and split them between terminals, which is confusing, and somewhat unnecessary, like RollOverMyHead said. I don't think the folks in charge at the MTA are as dumb as we like to think.

Those same amount of trains used to bring back the can be used to beef up and trains. The can have 2 north terminals, I mean the has been doing it for decades and people make it work. With these new trains out here with automated announcements and clear legible signs, there really shouldn't be a problem with people confusing the 2. Ever since they proposed the going up 2 Av, everyone is assuming the is automatically coming back. With beefed up service on the , that can take over the Bway express on its own with 2 north terminals (trains would alternate terminals, much like what the does), and just have the stay as the full-time Bway local.

[Wallyhorse]

But it's a rr row. Sure it needs a lot of rebuilding, but at least it won't be as expensive as tunneling under Woodhaven blvd. I think that if there are empty lots in that area, they should fix those up and turn those into parks. Or even use eminent domain to relocate a few homeowners to build a bigger park. Losing a row is worse especially for a borough lacking in decent crosstown services.

=

wally, just stop. The moment you said 'swap the D and R southern terminals' was the last straw.

The point is, something has to be done if you have the go via QB to the old LIRR Rockaway branch to Rockaway Park. 

 

Sure, you could have the go back to being 95th-Astoria at all times (as I would do with the supplementing the to Astoria on weekdays and other times the supplementing the on the SAS), but that goes back to the same problems the had in that incarnation prior to 1987 in having no direct yard access.  That was specifically why I would also have the and the swap southern terminals, with the running Bay Ridge-205th Street and the running via West End from Coney Island to Astoria at all times since the has Concourse Yard and the would have Coney Island this way. 

 

The other option would be to have the run 95th Street-Rockaway Park at all times while the returns to supplementing the like it did before 2010, but that would make such a line suspect to too many delays because of it being a long route.  That's also why I did it the way I did with the returning to its old Queens terminal, but with a swap of Brooklyn terminals with the .

 

I know a lot of old timers would lament the and switching terminals in Brooklyn, but to me, it makes the most sense in this particular set of circumstances given the to Rockaway Park as well pointed out here would be too long, with the a more logical candidate to run Whitehall-Rockaway Park.