Electric, zero-emission MTA bus hits the road in pilot program

[Turbo19]

Does the MTA publicly release the results of roadtesting its vehicles? I'd be interested to see how the Citaro and that Van Hool DD they tested turned out.

Sorry for the late reply.

 

And no, I don't believe anything has been released officially, at least not to my knowledge. I do recall some news articles in regard to Citaro and the failure of the Designline though.

[Fresh Pond]

Sorry for the late reply.

 

And no, I don't believe anything has been released officially, at least not to my knowledge. I do recall some news articles in regard to Citaro and the failure of the Designline though.

The Van Hool DD failed. Its just too tall for low-hanging branches and cant fit in many places

 

Not sure about the Citaro...

[Kingsbridgeviewer382]

The demo bus here is not suited for tall people. The article stated that a 6 ft 2" guy complained about the short headroom it had.

[bobtehpanda]

You think so huh? It's funny that whenever Americans argue that protectionist measures should be taken, people like you argue that it's stupid.  Meanwhile the Chinese have been and continue to enact protectionist measures to protect Chinese companies and jobs.  Maybe if we had a President and a Congress with some balls we wouldn't have such high unemployment rates now and would have more higher paying American jobs for Americans.  Obama talked a good game about taking actions against the Chinese government and its underhanded measures and has since been quiet on the issue in his years in office.  

 

See, this is the sort of thinking that created the trade wars that turned the Great Depression into a worldwide crisis...

 

Yes, China is protectionist. But you know what? So is America. We subsidize in many sectors, from defense and aerospace to agriculture and food processing. Most American corporations get another subsidy in the form of a very low tax burden - very few large corporations pay the full rate. Carnival gets away with paying a 1% rate because its ships are registered in Panama. Some industries are all Western - the big technology and aerospace players are all Western (Embraer is Brazilian, but only makes 100-seat planes). America has strict domestic content rules for government contracts, and has punitive taxes on imported car parts - that's why Japanese and Korean automakers have factories in the South. Everyone subsidizes - some people are just better than doing it than others.

 

China's advantage also isn't just protectionism - they spend an insane amount of money on infrastructure development and maintenance (to the point where it might be causing a debt bubble), whereas America loses 5-10% of GDP on damaged goods due to crappy infrastructure. They also have much easier land acquisition processes (it's a lot easier to steal land from peasants than to buy it from them), and very little enforcement of environmental regulations. It's not all just cheap labor, because otherwise India wouldn't have an economy slowing from 10% to 5% in a year.

 

China's strategy also isn't working very well now that it's a fairly developed country (in terms of having a giant middle class), because with very few exceptions, most Chinese people look down on Chinese brands as inferior quality (because they are) and will buy Western brands instead - despite huge import taxes, many people aspire to Audis, BMWs, or Cadillacs because they're so much more elegant and refined. Subsidies can't buy brand recognition and reputation, and with Chinese industry suffering massive scandals once every few months, that's not changing anytime soon. (In contrast, Japan and South Korea certainly had teething issues with their products, but there was definitely not widespread corruption or lax regulation of consumer products that caused widespread injury or harm.) No consumer, American or Chinese, is going to buy risky products with poor reputation, which is essentially what the MTA is doing here - they're testing the waters with this Chinese product to see if it's any good. If it is any good, then they might buy it (which is easier said than done, because the FTA now applies Buy America to every single aspect of a transit agency's operations, regardless of whether or not FTA money is spent on said project, so they would need to open a US factory).

 

TL;DR, if they choose the option of a Chinese manufacturer, they're going to have to open a factory in America, and we're protectionist in a lot of industries as well, so we're not one to talk.

[St Louis Car 09]

Im pretty excited about the bus.As far as Americans or Canadians making a dedicated all electric bus....They are still far behind.We are known for making Diesel buses.

[QM1to6Ave]

Let's see if this does any better than the Desginline, which was also seen as a great environmental breakthrough initially.

[Blitz]

The demo bus here is not suited for tall people. The article stated that a 6 ft 2" guy complained about the short headroom it had.

that might have been me. When the bus was still getting it's stripes at zerega, I called a couple things to the attention of the byd vendor. The low ceiling height in the rear section was one of the issues I pointed out. The steep stairs leading up to the rear was another one, and before the bus left there was a grab rail installed above the rear door that I hit my head on.

[NewFlyer 230]

Why are all these buses tested in Manhattan instead of Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx? I thought the whole purpose of these little test was to see if they can handle all New York Streets.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Why are all these buses tested in Manhattan instead of Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx? I thought the whole purpose of these little test was to see if they can handle all New York Streets.

Manhattan is the best place to test buses... Lots of traffic, lots of stop and go and buses are often slammed on most routes, so if it can handle Manhattan streets, it should be fine in the outer boroughs.

 

See, this is the sort of thinking that created the trade wars that turned the Great Depression into a worldwide crisis...

 

Yes, China is protectionist. But you know what? So is America. We subsidize in many sectors, from defense and aerospace to agriculture and food processing. Most American corporations get another subsidy in the form of a very low tax burden - very few large corporations pay the full rate. Carnival gets away with paying a 1% rate because its ships are registered in Panama. Some industries are all Western - the big technology and aerospace players are all Western (Embraer is Brazilian, but only makes 100-seat planes). America has strict domestic content rules for government contracts, and has punitive taxes on imported car parts - that's why Japanese and Korean automakers have factories in the South. Everyone subsidizes - some people are just better than doing it than others.

 

China's advantage also isn't just protectionism - they spend an insane amount of money on infrastructure development and maintenance (to the point where it might be causing a debt bubble), whereas America loses 5-10% of GDP on damaged goods due to crappy infrastructure. They also have much easier land acquisition processes (it's a lot easier to steal land from peasants than to buy it from them), and very little enforcement of environmental regulations. It's not all just cheap labor, because otherwise India wouldn't have an economy slowing from 10% to 5% in a year.

 

China's strategy also isn't working very well now that it's a fairly developed country (in terms of having a giant middle class), because with very few exceptions, most Chinese people look down on Chinese brands as inferior quality (because they are) and will buy Western brands instead - despite huge import taxes, many people aspire to Audis, BMWs, or Cadillacs because they're so much more elegant and refined. Subsidies can't buy brand recognition and reputation, and with Chinese industry suffering massive scandals once every few months, that's not changing anytime soon. (In contrast, Japan and South Korea certainly had teething issues with their products, but there was definitely not widespread corruption or lax regulation of consumer products that caused widespread injury or harm.) No consumer, American or Chinese, is going to buy risky products with poor reputation, which is essentially what the MTA is doing here - they're testing the waters with this Chinese product to see if it's any good. If it is any good, then they might buy it (which is easier said than done, because the FTA now applies Buy America to every single aspect of a transit agency's operations, regardless of whether or not FTA money is spent on said project, so they would need to open a US factory).

 

TL;DR, if they choose the option of a Chinese manufacturer, they're going to have to open a factory in America, and we're protectionist in a lot of industries as well, so we're not one to talk.

I'd argue that America isn't protectionist enough.  When you think about how big the American economy is, we aren't really huge protectionists, because if we were, we wouldn't have lost millions upon millions of jobs over the years to other economies.  

 

The other things that you've mentioned are not at all shocking and things that I've been well aware of, as I've studied this topic in great depth.  The fact that Chinese citizens have scorned Chinese goods (with good reason) is one reason alone why the shouldn't even be entertaining this idea in the first place.  Chinese vehicules have always have questionable safety issues and while the Chinese invest heavily in infrastructure, that is also suspect because of their lax regulations which you touched on earlier, so even with a US factory here, I have my concerns.  

 

Finally, your point about no consumer buying risky products, I would beg to differ upon.  We see Americans buying cheap questionable products regularly.  Look at how many Chinese products were recalled because they were tainted, etc.  The only time Americans made a stink was when the products were tainted, but otherwise, they were happy to be getting a "deal", as that whole episode didn't last long.

[Turbo19]

Why are all these buses tested in Manhattan instead of Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx? I thought the whole purpose of these little test was to see if they can handle all New York Streets.

Because, if they're tested in Queens you'll be the first to go point out what you consider flaws.

 

Actually, Manhattan is quite likely the most demanding borough due to many factors. I'm sure the bus will be tested in Brooklyn or another borough after the fact, as was done with the Designline fleet.

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

should be the Bronx or staten island... you can test out heavy ridership. alot of hills... bumps... stop and go traffic... high speed routes...tight streets

[AndrewJC]

Does the MTA publicly release the results of roadtesting its vehicles? I'd be interested to see how the Citaro and that Van Hool DD they tested turned out.

 

I'm curious as well, but my assumption has always been that the Citaro wasn't selected simply because Nova charged less. As for the Van Hool, I believe it was a Howard Roberts initiative, and once he was replaced by Tom Prendergast, the agency lost interest in the double decker concept.

 

But I could be wrong on both counts.

 

This is disturbing. I like that this is an environmentally friendly bus, BUT I don't like the idea of a Chinese company making it, even if it is made here.  The Chinese government has gone a long way to steal and destroy the American economy by intentionally pegging their dollar to make their products cheaper, making our exports harder to sell and the last thing we need to do is buy more of their products.   They should heavily vetted.  

 

The Chinese are known for their underhanded practices and lack of creativity, stealing from other countries rather than being creative and inventive and they don't have the best safety record when it comes to automobiles and the like.  Can't we find an American or even a North American company (as in Canadian) to buy from that share similar interests??   I don't like the idea of my tax dollars going for these types of companies.  Our money needs to be vested here in North America, to help North American companies create jobs for Americans and Canadians and we should be strengthening our ties with countries like Canada rather than China who doesn't share our Western ways.

 

If the North American product is more expensive than the Chinese product, are you willing to pay extra (through higher taxes or higher fares) for the North American product?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If the North American product is more expensive than the Chinese product, are you willing to pay extra (through higher taxes or higher fares) for the North American product?

I most certainly am.  The problem with the American public in general is they want everything cheap, but they don't realize that this usually means fewer American jobs and also American jobs that pay less.  You can't have it both ways.  In fact I'm a good example of someone who boycotts Chinese products.  I have plenty of American made products and yes they cost more and are harder to find, but the quality is much better and in the long run cheaper than the Chinese product.

 

As an American taxpayer who has seen how difficult it has been for fellow Americans to secure not just jobs but jobs that pay well, I feel morally obligated to see that I support American labor by buying and supporting American and I am not ashamed to be labeled as a protectionist.  I feel as if Americans have lost a sense of pride and are selling out this country by literally destroying our economy (the government is as well with the trade agreements that have been enacted and lack of enforcement of countries like China to abide by the trade regulations set forth) by buying these cheap imports and then wondering why so many American jobs have gone overseas.  The excuse that American products are so expensive is a fallacy to some extent.  Yes unions can drive up the price in some cases, but that isn't always the case.  In some cases the American product can be just as cost effective as the Chinese one and certainly better made.  I follow several "Made in USA" companies and would like to consider myself as someone who is enabling manufacturing to come back to this country rather than lying and saying that American products are so expensive without doing the research necessary to understand why Chinese products are so cheap in the first place.  

 

Let's see what the Chinese government does:

-Manipulates its currency to artificially make its products cheaper

-Follows lax or non-existant regulation laws so that the end product can be made with God knows what, hence why so many tainted products arrive from China

-Supports cheap slave labor

-Acts in dumping tactics, where it purposely tries to flood other economies with its cheap products in an attempt to wipe out competition

 

Yeah, it isn't too hard to see why Chinese products are sometimes cheaper...

 

With that said, there is no question that American Unions need to make more concessions to see how they can keep American products competitive through innovation and also by lobbying their local politicians to protect them and lobby for more protectionist measures, regardless of how it may look to other countries.  We've stood by and watched our economy go in the tank because of these "wonderful" free-trade agreements.

[bobtehpanda]

-Supports cheap slave labor

 

While I agree with most of your post, this is actually no longer true - labor costs are rising because of a workforce shortage, one-child policy and all that. It's why manufacturing is moving back here.

 

Since Cambodia, Vietnam, the Philippines, Thailand, and Indonesia are already moderately expensive and will never have the numbers or infra advantage of China, American (or at least North American) manufacturing will bounce back at least somewhat. If India gets its act together, then they would probably be the next China, but that isn't happening anytime soon.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

While I agree with most of your post, this is actually no longer true - labor costs are rising because of a workforce shortage, one-child policy and all that. It's why manufacturing is moving back here.

 

Since Cambodia, Vietnam, the Philippines, Thailand, and Indonesia are already moderately expensive and will never have the numbers or infra advantage of China, American (or at least North American) manufacturing will bounce back at least somewhat. If India gets its act together, then they would probably be the next China, but that isn't happening anytime soon.

Just because labor wages are improving doesn't mean that working conditions have improved that much.

[QM1to6Ave]

Manhattan is the best place to test buses... Lots of traffic, lots of stop and go and buses are often slammed on most routes, so if it can handle Manhattan streets, it should be fine in the outer boroughs.

 

I think this idea has gotten the in trouble in the past, like with the hybrid buses whose batteries were worn out too quickly on outerborough routes where buses did not have much stop and go to re-charge the batteries. THey probably should do more outerborough testing.

[Kingsbridgeviewer382]

should be the Bronx or staten island... you can test out heavy ridership. alot of hills... bumps... stop and go traffic... high speed routes...tight streets

They're not ready to be tested on lengthy routes as of yet and the buses aren't ready to handle harsh road conditions especially in Staten Island.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think this idea has gotten the in trouble in the past, like with the hybrid buses whose batteries were worn out too quickly on outerborough routes where buses did not have much stop and go to re-charge the batteries. THey probably should do more outerborough testing.

I can agree with that to some degree, but I think their thinking process is that if they can't make it in Manhattan then they can't make it in the outerboroughs.

[aemoreira81]

If the MTA ever goes with this technology - the only place where it would make sense is in Manhattan Division. But an electric bus has much less of a range than a diesel bus; a diesel bus can theoretically run for 16-17 hours at a time. If I ran the MTA, I would not go for it...what garages could handle these buses?

[Culver]

If the MTA ever goes with this technology - the only place where it would make sense is in Manhattan Division. But an electric bus has much less of a range than a diesel bus; a diesel bus can theoretically run for 16-17 hours at a time. If I ran the MTA, I would not go for it...what garages could handle these buses?

I would guess for now they're testing just to see how an all electric propulsion system for buses will work in terms of performance and durability*. Range won't be as much an issue by the time the next big order (after this current one for 690 buses) will be due.

 

*Take whatever this reverse-engineered shitjob from China does and double it, and you get the kind of durability to expect from an actual well-made electric propulsion system.

[Fresh Pond]

If the MTA ever goes with this technology - the only place where it would make sense is in Manhattan Division. But an electric bus has much less of a range than a diesel bus; a diesel bus can theoretically run for 16-17 hours at a time. If I ran the MTA, I would not go for it...what garages could handle these buses?

Well if you keep them in Manhattan (perfect spots for stop-and-go traffic), they could go to crosstown routes so I guess Quill. Shift some routes around and make the depot mainly for crosstown routes only

[MHV9218]

Well if you keep them in Manhattan (perfect spots for stop-and-go traffic), they could go to crosstown routes so I guess Quill. Shift some routes around and make the depot mainly for crosstown routes only

 

Sure ain't fitting under the CP Transverse with that rear lol. 

[engineerboy6561]

Honestly, what I'd really like to see is a Tesla-style drivetrain and battery pack on an electric bus. Here's a rough back-of-the-envelope calculation:

 

-The Model S battery pack can be estimated to cover about 80-90% of the area under the car, which gives you approximately (0.9)*(9.71 ft)*(16.325 ft), or 142 square feet. Multiply this by the height of the pack, which looks to be 11-12 inches, and you get something like 130-140 cubic feet of laptop batteries providing you 85kWh of power.

 

-The area under the floor of a bus is more on the order of (8.5 ft)(40.5 ft), and if you assume that 90% of that is usable, you get an available footprint of about 309 square feet for the battery pack. Assume an equally thick pack and you get 275-305 cubic feet of battery space, which should yield on the order of 175-180kWh of power. 

 

-A diesel bus with a state-of-the-art powertrain gets 4-6mpg, which translates to 38kWh/5mi = 7.6kWh per mile. However, most new diesel powertrains are at most 40 or so percent efficient, so only 3-3.1kWh per mile of that is actually being put to good use. An electric drivetrain, by contrast, is typically over 90% efficient, so an all-electric bus would probably only burn 3.4-3.5 kWh per mile at the absolute worst (assuming equivalent horsepower).

 

-Thus, a bus with just a Tesla-style underfloor battery would be able to go 50-60 miles on one charge assuming all things are equal.

 

-Now, if you assume that the bus is a semi-low floor, you could probably fit another (1.5ft)(8.5ft)(15ft)=191 cu. ft. of batteries in the back under the floor in the rear, which would increase total capacity to a little over 300kWh, increasing total range to 87-88 miles minimum.

 

-A configuration like that would probably be able to run at least 6-7 hours in service between full charges; longer if it were possible for them to top up at terminals while laying over or out of service.

 

Something like that would be cool in Manhattan, but might actually work better in Queens because of the hub-and-spoke pattern of a lot of the bus services over there. A few charging stations apiece in Jamaica, Flushing, Ridgewood, Jackson Heights, and Long Island City would enable a significant portion of Queens routes to use exclusively electric buses (topping them up at each end of the line and possibly at certain spots along the way); furthermore, runs on routes that don't pass a charging station could be interlined with runs on routes that do to ensure that all electric buses get a chance to charge up during the day.

[Vistausss]

I can agree with that to some degree, but I think their thinking process is that if they can't make it in Manhattan then they can't make it in the outerboroughs.

 

I think because of smog. Areas like Times Square are an environmental problem already from a emission perspective so the more they can do to limit the smog the better. So they probably figured that if they could replace at least some buses with clean electric ones to clean the air then why not give it a try.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think because of smog. Areas like Times Square are an environmental problem already from a emission perspective so the more they can do to limit the smog the better. So they probably figured that if they could replace at least some buses with clean electric ones to clean the air then why not give it a try.

I would agree with that.  They try to put clean air buses in areas where asthma is high.  For example the Bronx has high asthma rates so they put a lot of hybrid buses in those areas.