(B) and (D) express service

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Sometimes I take the or the and one thing that I notice is that the comes immediately after the does which seems ridiculous because afterwards, there can be a wait of 10 - 15 minutes before the next train comes.  Why is service set up this way?  It usually means that the is slammed with customers while the barely picks up anybody.

[Vistausss]

The does pick pickup people. If it didn't, it would've been axed like the .

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The does pick pickup people. If it didn't, it would've been axed like the .

Of course it does, but my point is having it run behind the as if often does means that the is slammed while the is lighter than it should be.  It also means uneven loads between trains and longer waits.  The doesn't just run with the so of course it picks up folks in the Bronx and in Brooklyn and Manhattan when it runs partially local, but when it runs express with the the usually picks up most of the passengers.  I know this from experience and have seen it many times. In fact this happened last night.  I come down to the platform to see that a train just left, then wait a good 10+ minutes.  Platform fills up and then eventually a comes but the train is packed.  There was a weird smell as I thought about getting on so I said screw it because I knew 9 times out of 10 a would come right behind it and sure enough one did.  Nice and roomy too with plenty of open seats.  Meanwhile that was almost packed like a sardine can.

[Guest Lance]

First off, where were you? That matters because it leads to my next point, which is that it doesn't take much to delay the train. That could lead to unavoidable bunching.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

First off, where were you? That matters because it leads to my next point, which is that it doesn't take much to delay the train. That could lead to unavoidable bunching.

Bryant Park area in this case but I've used the all along 6th Avenue.  West 4th street station is another location where I see this happening.

[peacemak3r]

I experience this while taking the home.  Whenever I get to West 4 Street and a leaves, a is usually minutes behind one another or vice-versa.  But say I miss both trains, they are about 7-10 minutes apart.  Not too severe if you ask me though.  Then again, sometimes that 10 minute wait feels like an eternity because of the heat down there.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I experience this while taking the home.  Whenever I get to West 4 Street and a leaves, a is usually minutes behind one another or vice-versa.  But say I miss both trains, they are about 7-10 minutes apart.  Not too severe if you ask me though.  Then again, sometimes that 10 minute wait feels like an eternity because of the heat down there.

Exactly... I also find that the waits seem to be longer despite what the schedule may state, so it may be only a 7 - 10 minute according to the schedule, but the train may come a bit later than that, hence the crowding on the .  

[realizm]

If this may help to figure things out: I don't see any dramatic issues with train bunching on the 4th Ave side of the BMT anymore.

 

What used to be the problem was mass congestion on the Dekalb interlocking as far as the and the . During the PM rush in particular that would mean massive delays on the . Sometimes up to 15 minute waits. On rush hours! This was before the split.

 

Now it seems everything is right on the money. No longer do I see 6th Ave West End trains back to back to back (yes I mean 3 R68's in a row) while the Sea Beach Express is nowhere to be seen and me cursing under my breath waiting for my damn train. 

 

It's always a give and take on the Dekalb interlocking and that may be part of the problem. As it seems BMT Broadway service on the T/D end has drastically improved in mere months, the 6th Ave Express lines suffers delays in the process from what I'm hearing. And I caught on to that on the Manhattan side of the bridge, while on the flip side the Broadway BMT lines are running to a tee right on scedule nowadays.

 

Last year it was the opposite, horrible delays on the Broadway Express and Locals on 4th Ave. 

[itmaybeokay]

Okay, well, I'm surprised nobody's pointed out the elephant in the room so here goes:

 

North of Columbus Circle, the runs express, and the runs local. The local train is going to be subject to a lot more delays than the express, generally speaking, simply from loading times. It could well be that the was supposed to be first but was delayed - and the has to get the hell out of the way at 59th street because of the crowded trains that are invariably behind it, so the B gets to wait for the D to clear, and then follows the leader out of the station and all the way down 6 av express. 

 

Looking at random schedules for Bryant Park, it looks like the and are supposed to be 4 minutes apart generally. One gets delayed - it gets crowded - it gets delayed more, it's follower is right on its heels and almost empty: a thing that happens to a whole lot of subway lines. 

 

I love subwaytime because I'll check the arrivals before I go down to the train platform on the way home. If there's a train coming in 5 minutes and another in 6 minutes, I'll wait for the train 1 minute later: It will be empty. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Okay, well, I'm surprised nobody's pointed out the elephant in the room so here goes:

 

North of Columbus Circle, the runs express, and the runs local. The local train is going to be subject to a lot more delays than the express, generally speaking, simply from loading times. It could well be that the was supposed to be first but was delayed - and the has to get the hell out of the way at 59th street because of the crowded trains that are invariably behind it, so the B gets to wait for the D to clear, and then follows the leader out of the station and all the way down 6 av express. 

 

Looking at random schedules for Bryant Park, it looks like the and are supposed to be 4 minutes apart generally. One gets delayed - it gets crowded - it gets delayed more, it's follower is right on its heels and almost empty: a thing that happens to a whole lot of subway lines. 

 

I love subwaytime because I'll check the arrivals before I go down to the train platform on the way home. If there's a train coming in 5 minutes and another in 6 minutes, I'll wait for the train 1 minute later: It will be empty. 

Yeah but even so, the usually follows the regularly and by that I mean it comes right after the , almost immediately, as if it is by design.  

[Guest Lance]

The problem may be that while they start from their respective terminals on time, they get held because of various issues, which leads to the inevitable bunching. As far as holding the trains to maintain spacing goes, as itmaybeokay said, that could delay other trains behind it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well I know they certainly get held up at 59th street when the switches tracks, but I'm talking about going Northbound.  Where are they held up at going North aside from maybe over by Grand St or the Manhattan Bridge?

[RollOver]

Well I know they certainly get held up at 59th street when the switches tracks, but I'm talking about going Northbound.  Where are they held up at going North aside from maybe over by Grand St or the Manhattan Bridge?

 

It could be DeKalb Avenue, where the sits outside of the station to let the cross over first or vice-versa. Same with the and . It just depends if the train is either early or late, depending on dwell times at each station.

 

And as others have said here, pretty much all other lines (aside from the and ) can arrive one right before the other and then the wait is about 7-8 minutes. It's just usually 10 minutes between each train per line.

[46Dover]

Who here remembers when the used to run local to 57th and 6th?

[Mtatransit]

Bunching happens every where on the QBExpress the   sometimes have to wait for the  in between queens plaza and 36 street. Then they come back to back into roosevelt avenue. Same thing westbound they merge after 75 Av and most of the time it is back to back also. Even during off peak. QBLocal same deal towards 71 av only but not from 71 Av, the   and the   most of the time arrives Queens Plaza at the same time and one train leaves first then another one leaves right after. Likewise in the one of the forums about decreasing headway on the IRTS the  and  also arrives back to back, probably because the   and arrives at identical time at 135 street so one has to wait. I have no idea why it is scheduled this way. Most likely it is because of one train delayed and the other one on time but still it happens EVERYDAY

[PATCOman]

When I used to travel from 7th Avenue/ 53rd Street to 125th Street, I would always pass up a D to get a seat on the B.

[realizm]

It could be DeKalb Avenue, where the sits outside of the station to let the cross over first or vice-versa. Same with the and . It just depends if the train is either early or late, depending on dwell times at each station.

 

Exactly my observations on the Brooklyn side of the issue. Unsure as to why, but the RCC and the T/Ds seem to always give assigned 's priority over the when they land at the same interlocking ( or the on weekends ) and even over the 's. At first the train bunching was maddening as I've mentioned with West End bound train after train before the Sea Beach arrives, but now that problem is almost eliminated with exceptions here and there as far as the 4th Ave line. They can improve the headways on the further however, but now that's an additional problem with congestion that can occur from the end of the BMT Broadway Line into the 60th St tubes into Queens.

 

This is debatable but the Dekalb interlocking dilemma is definitely one of the problems here, the infrastructure layout wasn't originally designed to handle all of this traffic post Chrystie Street connection to 6th Avenue, wasn't the BMT (Dual Contracts) -or- the IND's (second system) intentions. 

 

Despite all the Chrystie St connection was brilliant on the part of the NYCTA to start and the MTA to finish however it is not perfect. There are still bugs that I don't know can ever be worked out. 

 

Points noted on the problems on the IND CPW end of the problems with the 6th Ave express services. The delays currently are too frequent. Perhaps someone else can elaborate on that one.

[BrooklynIRT]

well, here go another two lines that have lots of problems..love to know if changing TPH on the or is the answer..

[bobtehpanda]

Bunching happens every where on the QBExpress the   sometimes have to wait for the  in between queens plaza and 36 street. Then they come back to back into roosevelt avenue. Same thing westbound they merge after 75 Av and most of the time it is back to back also. Even during off peak. QBLocal same deal towards 71 av only but not from 71 Av, the   and the   most of the time arrives Queens Plaza at the same time and one train leaves first then another one leaves right after. Likewise in the one of the forums about decreasing headway on the IRTS the  and  also arrives back to back, probably because the   and arrives at identical time at 135 street so one has to wait. I have no idea why it is scheduled this way. Most likely it is because of one train delayed and the other one on time but still it happens EVERYDAY

 

The problem is that with the and having the shortest scheduled headways in the system (every 2 min), it's ridiculously easy for delays to knock back.

 

It is unrealistic to schedule the complex B Division in such a way that trains on every segment of the system will be evenly spaced apart, all the time. Something has to give at some point.

[N6 Limited]

Bunching happens every where on the QBExpress the   sometimes have to wait for the  in between queens plaza and 36 street. Then they come back to back into roosevelt avenue. Same thing westbound they merge after 75 Av and most of the time it is back to back also. Even during off peak. QBLocal same deal towards 71 av only but not from 71 Av, the   and the   most of the time arrives Queens Plaza at the same time and one train leaves first then another one leaves right after. Likewise in the one of the forums about decreasing headway on the IRTS the  and  also arrives back to back, probably because the   and arrives at identical time at 135 street so one has to wait. I have no idea why it is scheduled this way. Most likely it is because of one train delayed and the other one on time but still it happens EVERYDAY

 

 

The problem is that with the and having the shortest scheduled headways in the system (every 2 min), it's ridiculously easy for delays to knock back.

 

It is unrealistic to schedule the complex B Division in such a way that trains on every segment of the system will be evenly spaced apart, all the time. Something has to give at some point.

I think during the day going "northbound" the gets priority at 36th street, so that the two trains can meet up at Union Turnpike.

 

Southbound I've seen an held at 75th ave so that a can go in front, but I think the usually gets priority because it's already on the express track and mostly bypassing the while it's in the station anyway. Also, the has to slow down to switch to the 63rd street track so sending an first will prevent/reduce backups.

 

But now that I think about it , it may depend on what the previous train was. For example, if the was the last train to go through 75th ave  and they both "meet up" at 75th ave, Then the may get priority so that it's one less switch movement that has to be made. Same thing for the , if the was the last train to go through, then maybe the gets priority.

[bobtehpanda]

I think during the day going "northbound" the gets priority at 36th street, so that the two trains can meet up at Union Turnpike.

 

Southbound I've seen an held at 75th ave so that a can go in front, but I think the usually gets priority because it's already on the express track and mostly bypassing the while it's in the station anyway. Also, the has to slow down to switch to the 63rd street track so sending an first will prevent/reduce backups.

 

But now that I think about it , it may depend on what the previous train was. For example, if the was the last train to go through 75th ave  and they both "meet up" at 75th ave, Then the may get priority so that it's one less switch movement that has to be made. Same thing for the , if the was the last train to go through, then maybe the gets priority.

 

Wait, in what universe have they held trains to meet at Union? I want to live in that universe - Union is the station where, more often that not, one train pulls in just as another closes its doors.

 

The E and F come so frequently that they really don't need to bother with holding trains at Union IMO - 4 minutes never killed anybody.

[Union Tpke]

Wait, in what universe have they held trains to meet at Union? I want to live in that universe - Union is the station where, more often that not, one train pulls in just as another closes its doors.

 

The E and F come so frequently that they really don't need to bother with holding trains at Union IMO - 4 minutes never killed anybody.

You're right; I don't need the connection but as I come of the train at Union Tpke the next one leaves and the people on the train are annoyed. I sometimes see them both in the station at the same time.

[N6 Limited]

Wait, in what universe have they held trains to meet at Union? I want to live in that universe - Union is the station where, more often that not, one train pulls in just as another closes its doors.

 

The E and F come so frequently that they really don't need to bother with holding trains at Union IMO - 4 minutes never killed anybody.

It was obvious that they held the special because it was sitting in the station with the doors open before we pulled into the station. And both trains left simultaneously. There may have been a delay on the as most of the bus stops at 169th and 179th were somewhat empty.

[CenSin]

This may be a bit off-topic, but in my honest opinion, the is the least reliable train. The seems to serve both delight and disappointment for those travelling between Brooklyn and Manhattan; which one you'll get depends on the flip of a coin.

[RtrainBlues]

Northbound B and D trains are usually sent over the bridge according to their schedule.  I was recently on a northbound D that was running 2 minutes late, but the conductor announced they were putting a "very late" B train ahead of us on the bridge.

 

Very often, southbound B trains are running 3 to 4 minutes late at West 4th in the mid-evenings,  Usually they are so late that they are delaying the D that is now immediately behind them.