Metro-North passenger train derails in NYC

[realizm]

If you really knew what you were looking for you could probably pick up on some signs of sleep disorders during an exam, but it would be pretty difficult (especially on adults when the signs are less pronounced) if you weren't really looking for it (and when you're a railroad doctor doing lots and lots of physicals, it's tough to catch everything).  But for the most part, it's pretty tough to pick a guy out of a lineup and say "he has a sleep disorder."  If you don't speak up about not being able to sleep well at night or things like that, chances are it will slip by.

 

Now I will have to admit something that I refrained from saying before the facts started to come to light: The engineer did look severely sleep deprived in the pics. More so then normal. He looked like a zombie. It can be attributed to the stress of the incident I can understand but something about him tells me he is simply not getting sufficient sleep for whatever reason.

[Burrstone]

The sarcastic tone of your message speaks volumes even though the word "bad" wasn't written.

 

Your opinion and your assumption, get over it...  What are you trying to prove with continually posting about this?  I never said it, I'm not trying to start anything but honest to get how many times do I have to spell out the same thing?  Do you want me to say that that's what I meant?  It isn't what I said and not what I meant...

 

I did say it sarcastically, but your assumption that I said it was a "bad" thing was a bad assumption on your part.  

[Burrstone]

Now I will have to admit something that I refrained from saying before the facts started to come to light: The engineer did look severely sleep deprived in the pics. More so then normal. He looked like a zombie. It can be attributed to the stress of the incident I can understand but something about him tells me he is simply not getting sufficient sleep for whatever reason.

 

If this is true who does this guy report to in the morning?  His supervisor or at the least two crew members don't see this?  If you say you can see it in the seconds you saw him in the news or in a picture, I'm sure someone noticed it that day but allowed him to operate thousands of steel with so many people on board while looking "severely deep deprived?"  

 

I don't know what's scarier a guy not paying attention, falling asleep, or a guy with sleep apnea who looked "severely sleep deprived" operating a train w/o anybody saying anything?

[LIRR 154]

If this is true who does this guy report to in the morning?  His supervisor or at the least two crew members don't see this?  If you say you can see it in the seconds you saw him in the news or in a picture, I'm sure someone noticed it that day but allowed him to operate thousands of steel with so many people on board while looking "severely deep deprived?"  

 

I don't know what's scarier a guy not paying attention, falling asleep, or a guy with sleep apnea who looked "severely sleep deprived" operating a train w/o anybody saying anything?

Not necessarily . Engineer is a really isolated craft. You don't report to no one or have to see the rest of crew members face to face. Your clock in is being in the cab , do your break test with the brakeman and your off. Mainly conductors are face to face socially , but Engineers be solely in the head cab. Most communication is through the radio.

[rosskin92]

 

Love how it tells them to do more, but the DOT is offering nothing like money (yet)Sent from my iPhone 5c using Tapatalk Why would the DOT be offering them more money to get their shit together? lol

Why? Because you cant make somebody do something they dont have the resources for. It makes no sense. If the DOT wants fancy safety equipment, they should foot part of the bill. Havingn said that, MTA should really take its own look into trainign and how its employees are being treated and working.Thats what i would fight for as the head of the MTA. But you cant rock the political boat, or you will get sacked. The former metra CRO, Max Clifford, was sacked because he refused to accept the Speaker of the House's (Illinois) friend for a position. Especially since airlines and airports get insane subsidies , while the railroads get very little.Let me bring a chicago perspective. The cost fot PTC on Metra is in the range of 279 million dollars. Metra doesnt have that cash, nor dors the state or local governig bodies. The requirement for PTC was a federal law, so why dont they pay for it? Its just another example of a law thats great but didnt think about how things would be paid for. Hmm maybe some of that money could come out of IDK the "Essential Air Service"? A related conundrum is thr fact that almost every major airport along the NEC needs capacity expansion in 5 years. Instead of expanding airports, why not expand and rebuild the NEC to make it faster , more reliable, better connected and shift the "shuttle routes" from air to train. Would ease the capacity for a little bit. Reduce enviromental impact. But who wants to fund it? Nobody. Whose lobbying against it? Airlines.Administrators and politicians dont really think logically in the long term. Which is a problem because you have these feel good policies that have no rationale or way of getting paid for. Trust me , im a public administration/ urban planning student ;)Sent from my iPhone 5c using Tapatalk

Schumer already in a press conference that tragedies like this create laws that him and other senators write, pointing to the plane crash in Buffalo that he and other senators created laws for greater training for regional/feeder pilots and put stricter rules into effect regarding the hours those pilots may work. Schumer and his buddies are foaming at the mouth to write laws regarding this tragedy so they can pat themselves on the back later. I think B/O's, T/O's, and drivers in general need to be made aware of the dangers of sleep apnea so they hopefully pick up on their symptoms, but as was pointed out above, drivers will be resistant to that. IMHO it is a huge problem and some fear being out of work for a year... Perhaps the state/federal government could guarantee that those diagnosed could received disability or a guaranteed living wage for a year for those diagnosed...?

You summed up my thinking with the politicians. And i totally agree that there needs to be more awareness of this.Sent from my iPhone 5c using Tapatalk

 

[QM1to6Ave]

I also noticed in that picture from the crash that Rockefeller appeared to be dressed in jeans and a t shirt. Isn't there a dress code like with subway T/O's?

[nostalgia]

I also noticed in that picture from the crash that Rockefeller appeared to be dressed in jeans and a t shirt. Isn't there a dress code like with subway T/O's?

I've never seen a engineer, regardless of railroad, in an uniform. I guess because they don't come into

contact with the public. T/O's come into contact with the public at terminals.

[Burrstone]

Why? Because you cant make somebody do something they dont have the resources for. It makes no sense. If the DOT wants fancy safety equipment, they should foot part of the bill.

 

It is the DOT's job to enforce safety and in situations like thia make recommendations not pay for their recommendations.  I'm not very familiar with RR operations but I want to refer to the letter sent as a "get your shit together" letter.  Basically this letter is sent so when/if the DOT has to intervene in anyway they can say the operator was warned, even given advice on improving their safety rating but they didn't comply...

 

You summed up my thinking with the politicians. And i totally agree that there needs to be more awareness of this.Sent from my iPhone 5c using Tapatalk

 

The things with politicians is they want to write all of these laws to "protect" everyone, in reality IMHO they are writing laws just to make it look like they are doing something so when the next tragedy happens they can pat each other on the back to say "we use tragedies like this to write laws, remember we wrote laws to keep you safe after the MNRR tragedy, remember that when you vote, we do it to keep you safe..."  They take cases from a few bad apples in the industry and use it to keep themselves busy writing law that punishes and restricts things to the bare minimum that affects every hardworking person in the industry is punished and restricted to the T.

 

Nostalgia will ask why this is bad, he can google the effect the "new" HOS rules and new rules concerning the 34 hour restart, how it's affecting the  average truck drivers pay who had never had an accident because of the previous 34 hour restart rules, the effect on profits for trucking companies, and the affect on the industry as a whole. 

[rosskin92]

 

Why? Because you cant make somebody do something they dont have the resources for. It makes no sense. If the DOT wants fancy safety equipment, they should foot part of the bill.

 

 

 

It is the DOT's job to enforce safety and in situations like thia make recommendations not pay for their recommendations. I'm not very familiar with RR operations but I want to refer to the letter sent as a "get your shit together" letter. Basically this letter is sent so when/if the DOT has to intervene in anyway they can say the operator was warned, even given advice on improving their safety rating but they didn't comply...

 

 

 

You summed up my thinking with the politicians. And i totally agree that there needs to be more awareness of this.Sent from my iPhone 5c using Tapatalk

 

 

 

The things with politicians is they want to write all of these laws to "protect" everyone, in reality IMHO they are writing laws just to make it look like they are doing something so when the next tragedy happens they can pat each other on the back to say "we use tragedies like this to write laws, remember we wrote laws to keep you safe after the MNRR tragedy, remember that when you vote, we do it to keep you safe..." They take cases from a few bad apples in the industry and use it to keep themselves busy writing law that punishes and restricts things to the bare minimum that affects every hardworking person in the industry is punished and restricted to the T.

 

Nostalgia will ask why this is bad, he can google the effect the "new" HOS rules and new rules concerning the 34 hour restart, how it's affecting the average truck drivers pay who had never had an accident because of the previous 34 hour restart rules, the effect on profits for trucking companies, and the affect on the industry as a whole.

 

Exactly.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone 5c using Tapatalk

[Burrstone]

I've never seen a engineer, regardless of railroad, in an uniform. I guess because they don't come into

contact with the public. T/O's come into contact with the public at terminals.

 

I only ride the LIRR and Amtrak from time to time but some of these guys look like the hobos riding the rails from time to time, The first time I saw a LIRR conductor I thought a homeless guy was stealing a train.  I understand it gets hot and maybe the rules should be relaxed on hot days but IMHO their should be a uniform, it would look more professional and would even be a status for them.

[trainfan22]

I also noticed in that picture from the crash that Rockefeller appeared to be dressed in jeans and a t shirt. Isn't there a dress code like with subway T/O's?

The dress code on railroads is not as strict as the subway, I do know they have to wear boots and can't wear shorts while on duty...

[Truckie]

Engineers have no specific uniform as they do not represent Metro North in a customer service capacity.  For safety purposes they are required to wear work boots, long pants and no tank tops.

 

Passenger conductors are required to wear the polyester the company issues, as they are the "poster child" of the railroad.

 

There are occasions where yard crews (conductor and engineer) are required to run a passenger train.  In this instance you will not see the conductor in the polyester we know and love.  In fact if it's a hot summer day, and he has been breaking his assets in the yard, crawling around between train cars for the last several hours, then yes, the conductor could look less than presentable to the public eye.

[Cyberider]

From Metro Magazine Dec. 5:

 

MTA: Alert system on wrong end of train

 

NEW YORK — Three days after the fatal Metro-North derailment, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority said the train was equipped with technology to alert an inattentive engineer — but it was on the wrong end of the train, according to the Daily News.

The “alerter” system may have prevented disaster, however, due to protocol, the engineer was operating the train with remote controls from the lead car, which had no alerter.

The MTA’s acknowledgment of the existence of the alerter system on the train came as a New York Police Department officer who was on the train filed a $10 million suit, alleging the MTA was negligent. For the full story, click here.

Meanwhile, crews from Metro-North Railroad have completed the reconstruction of a second Hudson Line track in the area of Sunday’s derailment, allowing resumption of full service Thursday morning.

The work, including new ties, ballast, running rails, third rails and signal system, was completed in mid-afternoon and it was inspected by the Sperry Rail Car, which uses ultrasonic technology.

“I want to thank our customers for their patience during the railroad’s recovery from this most tragic accident,” said Metro-North President Howard Permut. “And, I want to thank the dedicated men and women of Metro-North who worked long and hard to achieve this reconstruction.”

A full AM peak service was set to be provided on the Hudson Line Thursday. The three trains that did not run on Wednesday morning will be restored to the schedule.

Reconstruction of Track 4, the most seriously damaged, will continue for the remainder of the week.

Ridership on the Hudson Line was about 25% below the normal AM peak on Wednesday, possibly as some customers diverted to the Harlem Line. The railroad expects customers to return on Thursday.

 

[Fan Railer]

This is an interesting read regarding safety systems:

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blogs/william-vantuono/spuyten-duyvil-why-a-safety-expert-weighs-in.html?channel=00

 

Otherwise, on the topic of alerters, I think it is interesting that Metro-North does not seem to have considered retrofitting older push pull cab cars with alerter systems that come standard on newer rolling stock. This seems like a huge lapse in oversight, and would be a big point of contention against MNR.

[Tokkemon]

Why would they if they're strapped for cash? Knowing the (MTA)'s financial track record they probably are. Besides, in an organization that has had no fatal accidents in its history, why would it be on their radar? It is far more important, to them, to repair Grand Central, or fund the East Side Access, for example.

[realizm]

Why would they if they're strapped for cash? Knowing the (MTA)'s financial track record they probably are. Besides, in an organization that has had no fatal accidents in its history, why would it be on their radar? It is far more important, to them, to repair Grand Central, or fund the East Side Access, for example.

 

I need to ask now: What is the current status of the LIRR East Side project? I heard the work was halted at one point (2010?) but I am unclear on the particulars.

[nostalgia]

I need to ask now: What is the current status of the LIRR East Side project? I heard the work was halted at one point (2010?) but I am unclear on the particulars.

ESA is really off topic, but to answer your question: 2019 is the latest date I could find

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/nyregion/lirr-east-side-access-plan-to-need-more-time-and-money.html?_r=0

[Fan Railer]

Why would they if they're strapped for cash? Knowing the (MTA)'s financial track record they probably are. Besides, in an organization that has had no fatal accidents in its history, why would it be on their radar? It is far more important, to them, to repair Grand Central, or fund the East Side Access, for example.

I can't imagine retrofitting a handful of push-pull cabs with an alerter system to be all that expensive in the grand scheme of things. If that system could have helped to avoid the incident that is the topic of this discussion, I would think that the alternative well justifies this minor, but important expense.

[realizm]

ESA is really off topic, but to answer your question: 2019 is the latest date I could find

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/22/nyregion/lirr-east-side-access-plan-to-need-more-time-and-money.html?_r=0

 

I meant in terms of the progress made regarding construction beyond the bellmouths from the 63rd Street tunnel and some construction in Manhattan. But thanks anyway for attempting to answer my question. 

[Turbo19]

I can't imagine retrofitting a handful of push-pull cabs with an alerter system to be all that expensive in the grand scheme of things. If that system could have helped to avoid the incident that is the topic of this discussion, I would think that the alternative well justifies this minor, but important expense.

Even if it weren't justified in this instance the MTA would surely jump on it in the name of liability, I mean safety, safety!

[Burrstone]

Why would they if they're strapped for cash? Knowing the (MTA)'s financial track record they probably are. Besides, in an organization that has had no fatal accidents in its history, why would it be on their radar? It is far more important, to them, to repair Grand Central, or fund the East Side Access, for example.

 

Why would they want to waste money on alerters.....  I wonder how much this accident is going to cost them?  Especially being self insured and all...

[Turbo19]

Why would they want to waste money on alerters.....  I wonder how much this accident is going to cost them?  Especially being self insured and all...

We'll know how much at the next fare increase, lol.

[lirr42]

I need to ask now: What is the current status of the LIRR East Side project? I heard the work was halted at one point (2010?) but I am unclear on the particulars.

 

It's chugging along at a decent clip now.  Look through the quarterly reports for all the specific stuff.

[realizm]

Why would they want to waste money on alerters.....  I wonder how much this accident is going to cost them?  Especially being self insured and all...

It amounts to a forecasted $410 million dollars in change. Approximately $10 million in self-insurance coverage, plus $50 million through its captive insurance firm (First Mutual Transportation Assurance) and in addition, yet another $350 million dollars in liability insurance through its carriers in the commercial market.

[Burrstone]

It amounts to a forecasted $410 million dollars in change. Approximately $10 million in self-insurance coverage, plus $50 million through its captive insurance firm (First Mutual Transportation Assurance) and in addition, yet another $350 million dollars in liability insurance through its carriers in the commercial market.

 

This is the estimated cost of the accident?     Including lawsuits or not not?