Metro-North passenger train derails in NYC

[Missabassie]

 

I only ride the LIRR and Amtrak from time to time but some of these guys look like the hobos riding the rails from time to time, The first time I saw a LIRR conductor I thought a homeless guy was stealing a train.  I understand it gets hot and maybe the rules should be relaxed on hot days but IMHO their should be a uniform, it would look more professional and would even be a status for them.

I agree wholeheartedly good sir!

[realizm]

This is the estimated cost of the accident?     Including lawsuits or not not?

 

Lawsuits alone.

[Fan Railer]

Still think retrofitting alerters is a "waste of money?" I may not be an expert, but someone else may be able to give a ballpark estimate of how much it would cost to retrofit ~44 cab cars with the system. By the time this is done and over with, liability and damage settlements alone could probably amount to a level that could cover such a retrofit several times over.

[Orion VII 4 Life]

Will they suspend service south of Yonkers tomorrow like they did with the last derailment the weekend after?

[nostalgia]

Will they suspend service south of Yonkers tomorrow like they did with the last derailment the weekend after?

Why would they suspend service? Service has been fully restored because the tracks have been repaired.

[PinePower]

LIRR has always had alerters in the C3 cabs as I hear them beeping whenever I sit up there. Also where is the Conductor in all of this? He surely should have noticed the train not slowing down where it was supposed to, and should have tried to contact the engineer. If he didn't get a response he should've pulled the cord.

[nostalgia]

FRA orders emergency changes in Metro North operations:

 

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-metro-north-answers-1209-20131208,0,5788990.story

[Fan Railer]

LIRR has always had alerters in the C3 cabs as I hear them beeping whenever I sit up there. Also where is the Conductor in all of this? He surely should have noticed the train not slowing down where it was supposed to, and should have tried to contact the engineer. If he didn't get a response he should've pulled the cord.

Speaking of conductors, it's rather unfortunate that one wasn't up there in the cab with him during the time of the accident, or it may have never occurred. I say this because this is a rather common practice on NJT; the conductor in the lead few cars of a cab car lead train will enter the Engineer's cab and keep him company on long express runs in between stations.

[Orion VII 4 Life]

Why would they suspend service? Service has been fully restored because the tracks have been repaired.

2 tracks are back on.

[nostalgia]

2 tracks are back on.

If MN can run 98% of full service with one track, they can run 100% with two tracks. Besides, there are fewer

trains on the weekend than during the week. Plus, there's nothing on the website indication a service

change.

[Burrstone]

FRA orders emergency changes in Metro North operations:

 

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-metro-north-answers-1209-20131208,0,5788990.story

 

I'm unfamiliar with rail operations so for those who are, do rail operators have operating authority's like truck and bus companies?  At what point can (or in your opinion would) the DOT and/or FRA pull MetroNorth's operating authority or step in and shut them down?  One more "mishap" within a years time frame from the first incident?

[lirr42]

LIRR has always had alerters in the C3 cabs as I hear them beeping whenever I sit up there. Also where is the Conductor in all of this? He surely should have noticed the train not slowing down where it was supposed to, and should have tried to contact the engineer. If he didn't get a response he should've pulled the cord.

 

C3 cars do not have alerters, they have deadman's pedals.  Only the M7 fleet does on the LIRR.

 

Speaking of conductors, it's rather unfortunate that one wasn't up there in the cab with him during the time of the accident, or it may have never occurred. I say this because this is a rather common practice on NJT; the conductor in the lead few cars of a cab car lead train will enter the Engineer's cab and keep him company on long express runs in between stations.

 

As per MNCR company regulations, other members of the train crew are prohibited from being in the operating cab with the engineer.  The only exception is between Harlem-125th Street and Grand Central (and now the new spots where the speed limit drops by 20mph or more) where an extra train crew member in the cab is required.

 

I'm unfamiliar with rail operations so for those who are, do rail operators have operating authority's like truck and bus companies?  At what point can (or in your opinion would) the DOT and/or FRA pull MetroNorth's operating authority or step in and shut them down?  One more "mishap" within a years time frame from the first incident?

 

You can't just pull the operating authority of a railroad that moves 300,000 people on the average weekday.  Metro-North isn't some cut-rate bus operator.  "Shutting them down" would cause absolute havoc since 300,000 MN riders would be flocking to the roads, as well as halting all Amtrak trains between POU/NHV and NYP, CSX and P&W freight trains that serve Oak Point, the Bronx, and Long Island, etc. etc.

 

It will never happen.

[Truckie]

As per MNCR company regulations, other members of the train crew are prohibited from being in the operating cab with the engineer. The only exception is between Harlem-125th Street and Grand Central (and now the new spots where the speed limit drops by 20mph or more) where an extra train crew member in the cab is required.

 

There is one other circumstance where another crew member must be with the engineer. In the event of a train control apparatus failure.

[Burrstone]

You can't just pull the operating authority of a railroad that moves 300,000 people on the average weekday. 

 

It;'s better to put them at risk with a dangerous operator?  

 

 

 Metro-North isn't some cut-rate bus operator. 

 

They have the track record of one as of late.  lol  Actually if MNRR were a bus company they would've been shut down by now.

 

 

 "Shutting them down" would cause absolute havoc since 300,000 MN riders .................

 

My thought path wasn't leaving 300,000 people stranded but if they can't follow the new "recommendations" or have another incident FRA, DOT and the state can step in and appoint a new operator.  

 

 

It will never happen.

 

One more incident and we'll see...

 

 

You can't just pull the operating authority of a railroad that moves 300,000 people on the average weekday

It will never happen.

 

Great thinking, lets forget about safety and having the safest operator let's start thinking you can't such down such a large operator because they're too big, safety takes a back seat.  Let's hope this thought path doesn't carry on with MetroNorth, sadly I think it has IMHO I look at MetroNorth rolling their eyes at the safety recommendations as of late saying "what are they gonna do shut us down?  We're too big for that..."

 

One more minor incident and MetroNorth will be a thing of the past!

[Turbo19]

One can easily see where the MTA's priorities are.

[lirr42]

It;'s better to put them at risk with a dangerous operator?  

 

 

 

They have the track record of one as of late.  lol  Actually if MNRR were a bus company they would've been shut down by now.

 

 

 

My thought path wasn't leaving 300,000 people stranded but if they can't follow the new "recommendations" or have another incident FRA, DOT and the state can step in and appoint a new operator.  

 

 

 

One more incident and we'll see...

 

 

 

Great thinking, lets forget about safety and having the safest operator let's start thinking you can't such down such a large operator because they're too big, safety takes a back seat.  Let's hope this thought path doesn't carry on with MetroNorth, sadly I think it has IMHO I look at MetroNorth rolling their eyes at the safety recommendations as of late saying "what are they gonna do shut us down?  We're too big for that..."

 

One more minor incident and MetroNorth will be a thing of the past!

 

The infrastructure is the problem, not [necessarily] the operating agency.  Metro-North doesn't have the money (because it's not given enough of it) to repair every little thing, so the entire railroad has to be held together with duct tape.  They have been getting rid of a bunch of speed restrictions that were placed lately, but there's only so much you can do.

 

Any other agency you put in place would have the same exact infrastructure, equipment, humans operating that equipment, and budget, so things would be pretty much stay exactly the same.

 

And I don't think that we should sacrifice safety over the well being of millions of others, but shutting down an agency that has an unlucky 2013 but an impeccable passenger safety rating (up to this point).  Unfortunately, lots of things in this country are unsafe (bridges, tunnels, etc.) but the government would rather waste money away on everything other than transportation improvement, so this is what we're stuck with.  I'm not happy about it, but there is no way in hell I would be able to drive to work along with everyone else if someone came in and shut the LIRR down.  It would bring the region's economy to a standstill.  

[Burrstone]

The infrastructure is the problem, not [necessarily] the operating agency.  

 

LOL okay, we'll see what the DOT, RFA, and the state have to say about that.  It's never the 's fault is it?  But ultimately who's responsibility is it?  MetroNorth's!  Whenever I take a vehicle out on the road it's my responsibility to make sure it is safe.  If I get caught by the DOT operating an unsafe vehicle it's on me, I can't use the excuse that fixing the problem would've caused me to spend an extra night or two in hotels waiting and that would've blown the budget on the trip, the DOT would pull me out of service.

 

What the problem sounds like to me as far as the inferstructure is that MN may not have the money to fix it, they say what the hell and there's no authority making regular inspections (like the DOT on the side of highways) so they never get caught, they ca chance because it's not like they're going to get pulled out of service.

 

 

   Metro-North doesn't have the money (because it's not given enough of it) to repair every little thing, so the entire railroad has to be held together with duct tape. 

 

That's alarming.

 

 

They have been getting rid of a bunch of speed restrictions that were placed lately, but there's only so much you can do..  

 

There's that excuse again...  Poor it's never their fault is it?

 

 

Metro-North doesn't have the money (because it's not given enough of it) to repair every little thing, so the entire railroad has to be held together with duct tape. 

 

Maybe more money should go to safety and less to engineers making $145,000 a year!  I'm feeling like more priority is given to pad the boy's club bank account than into the safety of the passengers they transport.

 

Any other agency you put in place would have the same exact infrastructure, equipment, humans operating that equipment, and budget, so things would be pretty much stay exactly the same.  

 

Maybe a new operator wouldn't always have that excuse?  Maybe a new operator could do more with the money given to operate the system than the financially irresponsible ? 

[bobtehpanda]

LOL okay, we'll see what the DOT, RFA, and the state have to say about that.  It's never the 's fault is it?  But ultimately who's responsibility is it?  MetroNorth's!  Whenever I take a vehicle out on the road it's my responsibility to make sure it is safe.  If I get caught by the DOT operating an unsafe vehicle it's on me, I can't use the excuse that fixing the problem would've caused me to spend an extra night or two in hotels waiting and that would've blown the budget on the trip, the DOT would pull me out of service.

 

What the problem sounds like to me as far as the inferstructure is that MN may not have the money to fix it, they say what the hell and there's no authority making regular inspections (like the DOT on the side of highways) so they never get caught, they ca chance because it's not like they're going to get pulled out of service.

 

 

 

That's alarming.

 

 

 

There's that excuse again...  Poor it's never their fault is it?

 

 

 

Maybe more money should go to safety and less to engineers making $145,000 a year!  I'm feeling like more priority is given to pad the boy's club bank account than into the safety of the passengers they transport.

 

 

Maybe a new operator wouldn't always have that excuse?  Maybe a new operator could do more with the money given to operate the system than the financially irresponsible ? 

 

Infrastructure not meeting safety standards is becoming more and more prevalent in the United States due to the lack of money available; all transport money comes from either gas taxes or general fund money at the state and federal levels. The state and federal transportation funds are either insolvent or very close to it due to the fact that people just don't like raising gas taxes; the federal one has not been raised since 1993, so inflation has eroded much of its buying power. Add the fact that people are driving less per capita and cars are more fuel efficient, and there actually is less money to go around than there was a decade ago.

 

In the particular case of the MTA, the State and City have been downsizing their contributions to the Capital Program since the Pataki years. The last three years of the current Capital Plan are entirely bond-financed, and much of that includes normal replacement such as signals, new vehicles, etc. In addition, the MTA has forecasted $100B in capital needs over the next 20 years, even without new capital projects such as future expansions of the Second Avenue Subway. To act like they could recoup a lot of this money by cutting costs ignores the fact that MTA has already cut many costs (including pay freezes among management), and that the MTA is both dependent on the State for capital funding and at its mercy when it comes to rules on how it must pick bidders on projects, what pensions it gives its employees, etc.

 

The MTA (and the TA before that) was created to insulate the rail operations of the metro area from politicians who would defer maintenance in favor of keeping fares artificially low. While this worked, this also had the effect of making no one in office actually responsible for the MTA, and now the agency is everyone's favorite punching bag because everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too.

 

(I'd also like to point out that DOTs are not necessarily that great about road infrastructure either. Most of our current road infrastructure was built during the buildout of the Interstates in the '50s and '60s, and those structures were only built with a 50-year lifetime in mind. Now that this time has passed, many of our nation's bridges are in disrepair; the Brooklyn Bridge was given extremely poor marks in an inspection, and the rest of the road network is showing its age as well. One in nine bridges in this country is rated as 'structurally deficient'. Let's hold everyone to the same standards, shall we?)

[LIRR 154]

LOL okay, we'll see what the DOT, RFA, and the state have to say about that. It's never the 's fault is it? But ultimately who's responsibility is it? MetroNorth's! Whenever I take a vehicle out on the road it's my responsibility to make sure it is safe. If I get caught by the DOT operating an unsafe vehicle it's on me, I can't use the excuse that fixing the problem would've caused me to spend an extra night or two in hotels waiting and that would've blown the budget on the trip, the DOT would pull me out of service.

 

 

 

Lol Huh.. I never seen the DOT pulling anybody over for reckless driving. Also RR infrastructure as well as highway infrastructure has been laging in repairs and modernization in other words up to date around the country not just MNR rail system. That was one of the presidents concern when he ran for office. We are way behind when it comes to rail transportation compared to other countries around the world. Now there no secret money does get mismanaged by the upper bosses when it comes to books and surpluses. Now human error is being targeted as the blame. But they still won't bring some real big issues as far as crew rest, proper signaling making sure the rails are maintained properly. As far as Engineers making 145k , that's extremely rare. And also thats a lot of seniority towards retirement.

[lirr42]

According to the MTA, they have now installed a cab signal drop at Spuyten Duvyil and have reduced MAS at 26 different locations to eliminate locations where the speed limit drops at more than 20mph.

In summary:

• A cab signal drop has been installed at the Spuyten Duvyil curve. Cab signal drops will be installed at the other four "critical curves" (Yonkers, White Plains, Port Chester, Bridgeport) by March and the five moveable bridges in September.
• MAS has been reduced at 26 locations so there is no place where speeds would drop by more than 20mph.
• In these locations, Metro-North will still abide by the FRA's requests. Where practical, Conductors will ride up front with the engineers, and at locations where it's not practical (engine leading, etc.) they will communicate by radio.
• Of the equipment that still has deadman's controls, that equipment will either be retrofitted with alerters or replaced within the next year.
• Trains will randomly have their speeds checked by radar or by inspecting their event recorders.
• A close call reporting system will be implemented.

From the MTA:

MTA Metro-North Railroad is making immediate improvements to reinforce safety at critical curves and movable bridges along the railroad's right-of-way. These improvements were directed by Governor Andrew Cuomo in a letter to the MTA and by an emergency order from the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA).

These improvements were made as part of an agreement reached between Metro-North and the Connecticut Department of Transportation (ConnDOT)...

Signal crews have installed new protections at the Spuyten Duyvil curve, the site of last week's fatal derailment, which will warn train engineers of the approaching speed reduction and will automatically apply the train's emergency brakes if speed is not lowered to the 30 mph maximum in the curve... The signal improvement at Spuyten Duyvil was done simultaneously and in coordination with work to restore track, power and signal systems there after the derailment. Those protections will be operating on all trains by Monday morning.

By Tuesday morning, all Metro-North trains will enhance communication between train engineers and conductors to ensure trains are operated at safe speeds at four other critical curves as well as at five movable bridges. Conductors will stand with engineers at each train's control cab through the critical curves to verbally confirm that speed limits are adhered to. Where the train layout prohibits the conductor from reaching the engineer in a locomotive, they will communicate by radio. They will also communicate by radio at the five movable bridges.

Metro-North engineers are developing new signal protections to automatically enforce speed restrictions at the other four critical curves by March, and at the five movable bridges by September. The four critical curves are at Yonkers on the Hudson Line, White Plains on the Harlem Line, and Port Chester and Bridgeport on the New Haven Line. All five movable bridges are on the New Haven Line.

Metro-North has also surveyed its tracks and will reduce the maximum authorized speed at 26 locations in order to eliminate all locations where the speed limit drops by more than 20 mph. Signs will be posted along the right-of-way to alert engineers of reductions in maximum authorized speed at the four curves by December 16.

In addition, Metro-North has committed to enhance its monitoring of compliance with speed restrictions. This monitoring is accomplished by reviewing the event data recorders from randomly selected trains, by sending supervisors to ride trains and observe speeds, and by operating radar gun enforcement at locations throughout the Metro-North network...

Two-thirds of Metro-North's operating fleet is equipped with alerter devices in the engineer's position to ensure engineers remain attentive, and the remaining one-third is equipped with dead man's controls. Within the next year, all equipment without alerters will be either retrofitted to include them or replaced with new equipment that includes alerters.

At the FRA's direction, Metro-North has also committed to implementing a confidential close call reporting system, a measure which will allow employees to anonymously report safety concerns without fear of reprisal in order to identify potential problems before they can cause an accident or injury.

Additionally, Metro-North has conducted safety stand-downs for 4,500 employees in over 200 sessions at more than 80 locations. These sessions emphasized to all employees that safety is the most important factor in railroad operations and that all employees must operate and communicate effectively with safety as the ultimate goal. These safety stand-downs will be conducted every quarter in the future.

[QM1to6Ave]

"Signal crews have installed new protections at the Spuyten Duyvil curve, the site of last week's fatal derailment, which will warn train engineers of the approaching speed reduction and will automatically apply the train's emergency brakes if speed is not lowered to the 30 mph maximum in the curve... The signal improvement at Spuyten Duyvil was done simultaneously and in coordination with work to restore track, power and signal systems there after the derailment. Those protections will be operating on all trains by Monday morning."

 

 

Jesus H. Christ, it took only a week to install the technology necessary to automatically slow down a train going around the curve too quickly?? This should have been installed years ago. This makes me so angry!

[lirr42]

No, it's not that easy.  It was installed quickly this time because they practically had to replace the track.  It's a bit more than a couple clicks of the mouse.

[QM1to6Ave]

Still, even if they just rebuilt the tracks immediately leading to the biggest surves in the system with the steepest drops in MAS, this could have been accomplished before this accident, and I'm sure that the total cost of this accident will be the same, is not more, than the cost of replacing those portions of track and installing the technology. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I used Metro-North this morning. I must admit I was a little jittery particularly because I knew that the Harlem and New Haven lines had delays because of track issues.  The express train was running at a notably reduced speed and our train was running at a reduced speed as well. Just about every seat that could filled was and we had tons of standees by the doors and in the aisles so people are going on about their business, which is good to see.

[bobtehpanda]

Still, even if they just rebuilt the tracks immediately leading to the biggest surves in the system with the steepest drops in MAS, this could have been accomplished before this accident, and I'm sure that the total cost of this accident will be the same, is not more, than the cost of replacing those portions of track and installing the technology. 

 

Keep in mind that hindsight is 20/20, and until this year the curve didn't have too many accidents. Until something happened, it was just another unfunded cost mandated by the feds, and it wouldn't have made sense to do this if the PTC would've replaced it in a few years.