Bronx Division Bus Proposals/Ideas

[B35 via Church]

What are your opinions regarding a Bx7/Bx9 switch north of 225 Street?

 

Yes, local bus service would duplicate the subway between 215 and 231 Streets.  But local buses have short-haul riders, and may reflect actual ridership patterns and trends.

 

It all depends on the amount of people who currently transfer between 225 St and 231 St.  Would it increase or decrease?

 

Also, would such a change increase or decrease ridership?  How would it affect ridership on the 1 and A Trains?  Or would it simply shift riders around for better or worse?

 

 

 

 

 

These are things the service planners, at the lower levels of NYCT, must examine.  But they have do it objectively.  In other words, they have to ask as to what must be done in order to implement the best strategy that MAXIMIZES OPERATING EFFICIENCY.  Not to fear their supervisors, and give lame excuses as to why the status quo should be maintained.

Just ask your questions without trying to sway readers with these statements suggesting that this should come to fruition....

 

Why would anyone in their right minds entertain the Bx7 and Bx9 switching their routes north of 225th??? That makes no sense whatsoever.

That's what I say.....

 

If the planners realized this, they would've done something about it. They only get to focus on so much of the something, and it goes much beyond than just planning routes. Community remarks, statistical data, and other miscellaneous agendas play in hand.

I don't like the fact that he's making such an argument to implicate that what he's inquring about should infact be done - Even though he's asking if the two routes at & north of Marble Hill should be swapped...

 

"Not to fear their supervisors, and give lame excuses as to why the status quo should be maintained."

 

What a loaded statement if I've ever seen one....

[Q43 Floral Park]

But the Bx7 is more direct and is a one seat ride. In other words, a fordham bus shouldnt even dare serve Central Riverdale, is what hes saying.

 

Shouldn't even dare? That implies theres something wrong with one of the 2 areas and connecting them...

 

Just because he doesn't use Bx local routes nor see the need for a such service doesn't mean there isn't a hypothetical current demand for it.

 

The purpose of me discussing a revival of the Bx24 wasn't primarily for Riverdale's benefit and I'm not sure why the focus is solely on their needs:

 

1. I originally suggested it to relieve pressure on the Bx9. LTD service isn't impossible but it's not really feasible due to the stop distribution between Fordham-Marble Hill and that's the area where service tends to lag the most. With all the economic development occurring along the route in Kingsbridge/Kingsbridge Heights/Marble Hill (malls at 225/230/236 plus the Armory project) it would be wise to find a way to get riders going between Fordham and Marble Hill off the Bx9 because it's only bound to get worse. 

 

2. Putting a route on Bailey Av south of 231 gives people along the stretch a direct bus to train connection for the first time in 20 years. You literally have to take 2-3 buses to get from Fordham Hill (or any point S/o Sedgwick & Bailey) to River Plaza, the closest shopping center and they're 1.3 miles apart. I would have suggested extending the Bx12 Local but we've already covered the fact that there's no place to turn it. 

 

3. I'm actually not sure how they got away with 1 route on Riverdale Av for so long but them complaining about it recently fit perfectly into a revival. HHP never needed 3 bus routes and even on 15 minute headways Riverdale Av would now have an extra 4 buses an hour to get them to the 1 train. 

 

4. I don't believe in the concept of running short turns solely in one neighborhood when you could easily relieve pressure off 2 heavily used bus routes, restore an old service cut and provide a faster ride between 2 shopping districts. 

 

Even if the ridership is somewhat segmented at 231/Bway, what are the cons except for the fact that you have no control over who decides to  take the bus?

 

 

As for the suggestion of switching the Bx7/9 terminals, the good: Bx7 would have the benefit of improved reliability, a shorter run time and less crowding while the Bx9 would give Riverdale the artics they want. the bad: For old 7 riders you'd end up with the complaint of too much service In Riverdale at times, inconsistent service at other times and rampant bus bunching all the time and they can't get the A. People would riot if they had  to go to the GC for the on a weekend when the is out. On the Bx9s end, no one can get to any of the stores on Bway N/o of 231 or to/from North Riverdale from points east without transferring. Connectivity needs to be improved not taken away.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Shouldn't even dare? That implies theres something wrong with one of the 2 areas and connecting them...

 

Just because he doesn't use Bx local routes nor see the need for a such service doesn't mean there isn't a hypothetical current demand for it.

 

The purpose of me discussing a revival of the Bx24 wasn't primarily for Riverdale's benefit and I'm not sure why the focus is solely on their needs:

 

1. I originally suggested it to relieve pressure on the Bx9. LTD service isn't impossible but it's not really feasible due to the stop distribution between Fordham-Marble Hill and that's the area where service tends to lag the most. With all the economic development occurring along the route in Kingsbridge/Kingsbridge Heights/Marble Hill (malls at 225/230/236 plus the Armory project) it would be wise to find a way to get riders going between Fordham and Marble Hill off the Bx9 because it's only bound to get worse. 

 

2. Putting a route on Bailey Av south of 231 gives people along the stretch a direct bus to train connection for the first time in 20 years. You literally have to take 2-3 buses to get from Fordham Hill (or any point S/o Sedgwick & Bailey) to River Plaza, the closest shopping center and they're 1.3 miles apart. I would have suggested extending the Bx12 Local but we've already covered the fact that there's no place to turn it. 

 

3. I'm actually not sure how they got away with 1 route on Riverdale Av for so long but them complaining about it recently fit perfectly into a revival. HHP never needed 3 bus routes and even on 15 minute headways Riverdale Av would now have an extra 4 buses an hour to get them to the 1 train. 

 

4. I don't believe in the concept of running short turns solely in one neighborhood when you could easily relieve pressure off 2 heavily used bus routes, restore an old service cut and provide a faster ride between 2 shopping districts. 

 

Even if the ridership is somewhat segmented at 231/Bway, what are the cons except for the fact that you have no control over who decides to  take the bus?

 

 

As for the suggestion of switching the Bx7/9 terminals, the good: Bx7 would have the benefit of improved reliability, a shorter run time and less crowding while the Bx9 would give Riverdale the artics they want. the bad: For old 7 riders you'd end up with the complaint of too much service In Riverdale at times, inconsistent service at other times and rampant bus bunching all the time and they can't get the A. People would riot if they had  to go to the GC for the on a weekend when the is out. On the Bx9s end, no one can get to any of the stores on Bway N/o of 231 or to/from North Riverdale from points east without transferring. Connectivity needs to be improved not taken away.

I understand what you're saying, I'm just saying it the way he thinks (and what he thinks- I just mentioned that the 7 and 9 should stay the same way they are because you do get a good amount of people on the 7 past 231 towards Manhattan and vice versa. However, the irony is that he agrees, but also states that he doesn't care about anything outside Riverdale, which means those nanny's nurses, etc that rely on the Bx7 are gonna have an elongated commute).

 

I could care less where a (new) route from Riverdale goes to, as long as reliability isn't so bad. 

 

Now with the (old Bx24), you could revive it a certain way (obviously the headways can't be utter crap). You could relieve the Bx7 and the 9 in the same proposal, which is true. 

 

You can start of the Bx24 (if it's ever done) with 20 minute headways, and 30 minute all other times. It can run a 6AM/7AM/8AM (Wkdy/Sat/Sun) to 8PM/9PM/10PM (Sun/Sat/Weekdays) schedule. 

 

As long as the route doesn't spend too much time on Bailey, it's not bad of a though. However, I think it should get off Bailey at 225 instead, and then run on the Bx9 route until 225, then from there, onto the Bx7 route (and I think it's better to end it at the City Line).

Edited January 25, 2015 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Q43LTD]

Now the problem is, should it go to Fordham Plaza from Riverdale like the Bx9?

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

I would say these are the 4 major things to look at in terms of Bronx bus service.... 

1. Some way to alter the routing of Bx10 east of B'way/231 and Bx28 south of 205 St/Bainbridge. I would suggest terminating eastbound Bx10's at Paul/205th but I haven't figured out a good idea with the Bx28 that keeps access in tact. 

2. Tweaking Riverdale service to improve the reliability of Bx7/9/10. My tweaks would involve a route of some number traveling due south on Broadway from 262 to 168. The rest can be worked around that while keeping current connectivity points available. 

3. Service to Hutchinson Metro Center- Bx24 offers too little to the area in terms of service yet a re-route of the closest existing services does not seem feasible. Looks like a chance to set up a new route in the East Bronx to help serve the area. 

4. Some way to improve Bx36. I've come to the conclusion that this is flat out the worst route in the borough. There has to be a way to give Soundview residents access to West Bronx and Upper Manhattan without a route having to meander the way the Bx36 does. I seriously feel that route does the work of 3 routes as one.

[Q43LTD]

I would say these are the 4 major things to look at in terms of Bronx bus service.... 

1. Some way to alter the routing of Bx10 east of B'way/231 and Bx28 south of 205 St/Bainbridge. I would suggest terminating eastbound Bx10's at Paul/205th but I haven't figured out a good idea with the Bx28 that keeps access in tact. 

2. Tweaking Riverdale service to improve the reliability of Bx7/9/10. My tweaks would involve a route of some number traveling due south on Broadway from 262 to 168. The rest can be worked around that while keeping current connectivity points available.

3. Service to Hutchinson Metro Center- Bx24 offers too little to the area in terms of service yet a re-route of the closest existing services does not seem feasible. Looks like a chance to set up a new route in the East Bronx to help serve the area. 

4. Some way to improve Bx36. I've come to the conclusion that this is flat out the worst route in the borough. There has to be a way to give Soundview residents access to West Bronx and Upper Manhattan without a route having to meander the way the Bx36 does. I seriously feel that route does the work of 3 routes as one.

About those bolded parts:

A Riverdale-Washington Hts route via Broadway may take some pressure off those routes. I would probably extend it Yonkers if possible. A Bx24-type (old) revival could still work

 

Where would this new route start and end? Westchester Sq? Pelham Bay?

[B35 via Church]

Shouldn't even dare? That implies theres something wrong with one of the 2 areas and connecting them...

 

Just because he doesn't use Bx local routes nor see the need for a such service doesn't mean there isn't a hypothetical current demand for it.

 

The purpose of me discussing a revival of the Bx24 wasn't primarily for Riverdale's benefit and I'm not sure why the focus is solely on their needs:

It's the riff raff argument rearing its head yet again.... I'm not going to entertain it.

All it does is keep the door open for never ending displays of elitism.....

 

However, even if the main purpose wasn't for benefiting Riverdale, I don't see the need right now for another route running in & out of Riverdale.....

 

3. I'm actually not sure how they got away with 1 route on Riverdale Av for so long but them complaining about it recently fit perfectly into a revival.

I have 2 theories as to how they did:

 

- It having to do with all the Westchester folks (and the Riverdale folks as well) disembarking for the @ 242nd, and not wanting other areas of the Bronx (or so it would seem).....

 

- The fact that the Bx9 doesn't double-feed Riverdale (in other words, it serves no actual Riverdale patron east of Van Cortlandt Park).....

(Saying that another way, if residential blocks occupied the land that currently occupies Van Cortlandt Park, there probably would have been a second route running along Riverdale av.... Whether that means the Bx3 run north of 238th or some non-current route having been created to serve an entirely different area of the Bronx....)

 

4. I don't believe in the concept of running short turns solely in one neighborhood when you could easily relieve pressure off 2 heavily used bus routes, restore an old service cut and provide a faster ride between 2 shopping districts. 

I'm not sure what this particular comment is in reference to exactly, but I'll say that (in regards to the Bx9 specifically) this wouldn't be as much an issue if River Plaza came equipped with a niche/crevice/area for buses to terminate (so people can then shut up about running M100's there, for starters).... A full time street level/curbside terminal in Marble Hill isn't going to cut it, as we all come to realize here....

 

I would be in favor of structuring Bx9 service in the manner of [running Bx9's between West Farms & Riverdale (the current full route) & running Bx9's between West Farms & Marble Hill], before [reinstating the first rendition of the Bx24]..... Running as many short turn Bx9's between Riverdale & Marble Hill as there are, I find baffling - where that's not where most of the collective Bx9 ridership is.... You run more service where a higher demand exists for it (or so you would think); IMO, there's simply too much Bx9 service running north of 242nd st ..... That to me is the fundamental problem of the Bx9 - having more buses/trips rack up mileage than is necessary.....

 

The Bx9 should run similar to how the B15 runs.....Then the question becomes one of frequency (of how many trips doing the full route, compared to that particular short turn setup)..... I could not fathom the MTA running more B15's b/w JFK T5 & Pennsylvania av (ENY/Spring Creek riders getting to the ), and that is what running Bx9's b/w 262nd & 225th ([that side of] Riverdale getting to the ) is somewhat analogous of to me....

[qjtransitmaster]

About those bolded parts:

A Riverdale-Washington Hts route via Broadway may take some pressure off those routes. I would probably extend it Yonkers if possible. A Bx24-type (old) revival could still work

 

Where would this new route start and end? Westchester Sq? Pelham Bay?

Yonkers nah b people will continue to use the & W1/2. Bx9 refer to B35 church's post.

[B35 via Church]

Just realized that I misread Q43 Floral's point #3....

I was commenting as if it said one route along broadway, instead of riverdale av... My fault.....

 

But continuing on with the mass reply here....

 

I could care less where a (new) route from Riverdale goes to, as long as reliability isn't so bad. 

 

Now with the (old Bx24), you could revive it a certain way (obviously the headways can't be utter crap). You could relieve the Bx7 and the 9 in the same proposal, which is true. 

 

You can start of the Bx24 (if it's ever done) with 20 minute headways, and 30 minute all other times. It can run a 6AM/7AM/8AM (Wkdy/Sat/Sun) to 8PM/9PM/10PM (Sun/Sat/Weekdays) schedule. 

 

As long as the route doesn't spend too much time on Bailey, it's not bad of a though. However, I think it should get off Bailey at 225 instead, and then run on the Bx9 route until 225, then from there, onto the Bx7 route (and I think it's better to end it at the City Line).

My problem is running another route to Riverdale in the first place/as it is..... But be there as it may..

 

You wouldn't get too many folks to wait for a bus running more or less on coverage headways to get to/from Fordham though; that's part of the issue.... They (west of B'way folks) would simply continue cramming onto Bx9's to get to Fordham.... But to entertain this Bx24 thing for a second, the question I have is - Would it be worth bringing back that rendition of the Bx24 & providing it with 10-15 min. headways - to cut into overall Bx9 service for the sake of quicker travel (on the 24) as a result?..... In other words, there would be more Bx24 service from Fordham than what you're bringing up, but the sacrifice would be less Bx9 service, since it's such a slow crawl b/w the two aforementioned areas..... Just a thought......

 

As far as what you say at the end there, Turning buses on 231st instead of 225th illustrates to me that the belief exists that kingsbridge (the neighborhood) riders could benefit more from such a route heading to Fordham, compared to Marble hill for getting to the same area..... Q43 Floral can elaborate more on that, since he's proposing the route's revival....

 

 

I would say these are the 4 major things to look at in terms of Bronx bus service.... 

 

1. Some way to alter the routing of Bx10 east of B'way/231 and Bx28 south of 205 St/Bainbridge. I would suggest terminating eastbound Bx10's at Paul/205th but I haven't figured out a good idea with the Bx28 that keeps access in tact. 

2. Tweaking Riverdale service to improve the reliability of Bx7/9/10. My tweaks would involve a route of some number traveling due south on Broadway from 262 to 168. The rest can be worked around that while keeping current connectivity points available. 

3. Service to Hutchinson Metro Center- Bx24 offers too little to the area in terms of service yet a re-route of the closest existing services does not seem feasible. Looks like a chance to set up a new route in the East Bronx to help serve the area. 

4. Some way to improve Bx36. I've come to the conclusion that this is flat out the worst route in the borough. There has to be a way to give Soundview residents access to West Bronx and Upper Manhattan without a route having to meander the way the Bx36 does. I seriously feel that route does the work of 3 routes as one.

1) Yeah, that's been talked about to death on here since... the new year started.

 

2) Although Riverdale has been brought up on this forum an umpteen # of times, I'm not fooled by the frequency of commentaries/complaints... I don't think that's a major issue at all, looking at the bigger picture/bronx's bus network.... You have a full time route panning well south of Riverdale [7], a part time route panning south enough of Riverdale [20], and 2 full times route running east of Riverdale [9, 10]..... Maybe we should have a route panning from Riverdale, west of Riverdale route too

 

side note: The swapping of the 7 & the 9 was brought up, but what I've never seen brought up are swapping the 9 & the 10 at broadway....

(meaning, the 10 runs from norwood to 262nd/broadway & the 9 runs from west farms to Mt. St. Ursula Vincent).... Not that I'm proposing that, but at least it would be something new to talk about for a change.....

 

* Actually, I take part of that back, while the 9 part of it wasn't brought up, come to think of it, I do remember someone suggesting running 3's & 10's to Broadway/262nd.... It was brought up in the same plan that had Bx9's ending at 225th/B'way.... I don't remember who's old plan that was though, but anyway...

 

3) Agree with this, and I brought that very issue up before.... HMC deserves better than coverage headways

Although I'm not sure where you'd even run a new route from HMC to...

 

I would run some amount of Bx31's in & out of there & call it a day....

 

^^ Speaking of that, I got into a debate w/ someone that felt (back when I said the 21 or the 31 should additionally serve HMC) that the 21 should end there, since it serves the west bronx, where a lot of schoolkids & workers are coming from, and not from the north bronx.... That part of the argument I found (and still find) misleading, but the part I focused my retort on, was regarding having 21's end there... I asked him, what about the connection to the ? The response was something along the lines of, there's too many buses at Westchester Sq. & anyone needing the can transfer at white plains, williamsbridge, eastchester, or at HMC with the 24... At that point, I considered the whole thing moot..... The 21 east of 180th st subway isn't heavily used anyway, and this notion that an additional bus should be taken to get to the - just to have 21's serving HMC screams not seeing the forest for the damn trees.....

 

4) ....and that's by design (it doing the job of multiple routes at once)....

 

The MTA's solution to the meandering/indirectness of the Bx36 is to over-flood service on it

I happen to find the Bx8 as one of, if not the worst route in the borough.... it's a long ass coverage route that doesn't serve too much of anything.... Only time you see crowds on that bus is if they are late.... I suppose the Bx36 is up there as well, but to me, at least the Bx36 is actually useful to mad people (albeit with the myriad of problems that it has)

[B35 via Church]

About those bolded parts:

 

A Riverdale-Washington Hts route via Broadway may take some pressure off those routes. I would probably extend it Yonkers if possible. A Bx24-type (old) revival could still work

 

Where would this new route start and end? Westchester Sq? Pelham Bay?

I don't understand how a Broadway/262nd - Washington Hgts route could relieve pressure, compared to the current Bx9 running from that same part of Riverdale.... Unless the notion is that since less riders will utilize it, it would travel along Broadway (bronx end) faster than the current 9, which a lot of people use to get to Fordham & points SE of it.... In other words, less passenger activity = quicker runtime.....

 

The Bx7 in mainland Manhattan is just as much a headache as the Bx9 b/w West Farms & Marble Hill...

Furthermore, when bus routes have to run under an el to garner as much riders as possible, we can forget about pressure relief....

 

Yonkers nah b people will continue to use the & W1/2...

lol @ nah B

 

Anyway, I happen to agree with you... Very few of those Westchester folks are fin to abandon the Bee line buses to the subway for a route running from Yonkers to Washington Hgts.... I don't get the sense that they would even use our (meaning NYC) buses anyway... People tend to be fickle like that.....

[Q43LTD]

Yonkers nah b people will continue to use the & W1/2. Bx9 refer to B35 church's post.

At least it's better than trying to put the Bx16 on I-87 "B" Stop it with the brownie points

[B35 via Church]

At least it's better than trying to put the Bx16 on I-87 "B" Stop it with the brownie points

Although I agree with that particular post of his (for once), ass kissery does nothin for me.... I picked up on that immediately.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

I would say these are the 4 major things to look at in terms of Bronx bus service.... 

1. Some way to alter the routing of Bx10 east of B'way/231 and Bx28 south of 205 St/Bainbridge. I would suggest terminating eastbound Bx10's at Paul/205th but I haven't figured out a good idea with the Bx28 that keeps access in tact. 

 

 

The Bx10 originally followed the Bx1 along Heath Avenue until it was rerouted to Bailey Avenue and Van Cortlandt Avenue West in an attempt to make it a little more useful.  At the same time, it really has to hit the , the , and Montefiore Hospital — and Riverdale folks would scream if it missed the Bronx High School of Science.

 

Once upon a decade, there was a concept of combining the Bx10 with the Bx30.  The combined route would have "de-tangled" the Bx10 a little, but it also would have been extremely long and unreliable (which is why it never happened).

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

My problem is running another route to Riverdale in the first place/as it is..... But be there as it may..

 

You wouldn't get too many folks to wait for a bus running more or less on coverage headways to get to/from Fordham though; that's part of the issue.... They (west of B'way folks) would simply continue cramming onto Bx9's to get to Fordham.... But to entertain this Bx24 thing for a second, the question I have is - Would it be worth bringing back that rendition of the Bx24 & providing it with 10-15 min. headways - to cut into overall Bx9 service for the sake of quicker travel (on the 24) as a result?..... In other words, there would be more Bx24 service from Fordham than what you're bringing up, but the sacrifice would be less Bx9 service, since it's such a slow crawl b/w the two aforementioned areas..... Just a thought......

 

As far as what you say at the end there, Turning buses on 231st instead of 225th illustrates to me that the belief exists that kingsbridge (the neighborhood) riders could benefit more from such a route heading to Fordham, compared to Marble hill for getting to the same area..... Q43 Floral can elaborate more on that, since he's proposing the route's revival....

 

 

1) Yeah, that's been talked about to death on here since... the new year started.

 

2) Although Riverdale has been brought up on this forum an umpteen # of times, I'm not fooled by the frequency of commentaries/complaints... I don't think that's a major issue at all, looking at the bigger picture/bronx's bus network.... You have a full time route panning well south of Riverdale [7], a part time route panning south enough of Riverdale [20], and 2 full times route running east of Riverdale [9, 10]..... Maybe we should have a route panning from Riverdale, west of Riverdale route too

 

I wonder, have people also brought up extending the 1 more into Riverdale (at least until 246 street)? It would be a really long-ass route though.

 

The route would also supplement the Bx12 on the south part, and get an new Bailey Avenue segment, and would supplement the Bx7 within Riverdale. Be what it is, I feel this route is more of a supplementary route than to serve a whole new market or types of riders. The headways (at least rush hours) allow for it to be somewhat of reliever to the Bx7, and the Bx12. Kind of like the Q21 in a sense (except it has a 30 minute headway throughout the day). 

 

Or What if the Bx24 only entered Riverdale during rush hours, and in return, the midday headways be more frequent?

Edited January 25, 2015 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[B35 via Church]

I wonder, have people also brought up extending the 1 more into Riverdale (at least until 246 street)? It would be a really long-ass route though.

 

The route would also supplement the Bx12 on the south part, and get an new Bailey Avenue segment, and would supplement the Bx7 within Riverdale. Be what it is, I feel this route is more of a supplementary route than to serve a whole new market or types of riders. The headways (at least rush hours) allow for it to be somewhat of reliever to the Bx7, and the Bx12. Kind of like the Q21 in a sense (except it has a 30 minute headway throughout the day). 

 

Or What if the Bx24 only entered Riverdale during rush hours, and in return, the midday headways be more frequent?

That was brought up about 2 or 3 months or so ago on here in this very thread (about the Bx1)....

 

If the revival of the Bx24 is meant to be a supplementary route, then it isn't much different than QJT's idea of running Bx22's to MNRR Marble Hill.... TBH, I don't like the idea of wanting to (intentionally) create new supplementary routes (or "layering", as it's been dubbed) - I'd aim to have every route serve at least one or two unique markets... And when I say markets, I don't mean specific blocks - in other words [for example], it running along Bailey av doesn't qualify as a market (but you probably already know that)...

 

side note: Maybe this would be a good idea for the NYCTF community as a whole, where there would be a glossary of terms stickied somewhere (bus seperate, subway seperate, railroad separate, combination of the 3 on one page), doesn't matter..... Back in the day, one of the transit forums had something like that, but I don't remember which one it was (it wasn't straps & it sure as hell wasn't/isn't subchat)...

 

something like this: http://www.sacrt.com/transitglossary.stm

-----

 

But yeah, now if the Bx24 of sorts is meant to be complementary, then that's something totally different (an example of that is the Bx1/2 & the Bx40/42).... An example of a supplementary route (to another bus route, I mean) is the Q100... Of course we have the Q60's, Q56's, B25's, Bx39's, etc. that supplement the subway.....

 

side note #2: Express buses are NOT supplemental nor complementary to local bus service in NYC.... Common misconception.

 

I'll use your route as an example... The Qm15 is is no way, shape, or form supplemental to the Q11/21/52/53 (laughing as I'm typing that); i.e. the QM15 doesn't help ANYONE along Woodhaven Blvd get to QCM (still lol).... Also, the Qm15 isn't complementary to the Woodhaven local routes either; i.e. the QM15 isn't necessary to assist anyone along Woodhaven to get to QCM - because it doesn't do it in the first place!

 

* Q11/21 are supplementary to each other, Q52/53 are supplementary to each other....

* any combination of the [Q11 or 21] & the [Q52 or 53] are complementary to each other;

(ex. the Q52 complements the Q11 - one is local, one is LTD, and both types of services are needed on Woodhaven)....

--------------

 

As for your question.... If the Bx24 entered Riverdale during the rush, where would the (more frequent) midday 24's terminate?

 

It running in Riverdale isn't the main disqualifier/deal breaker for me (although I believe anymore routes running in riverdale is excessive), it's the fact that it would use more of Fordham rd..... I should have disclosed that earlier this morning....

 

While the Bx9 b/w fordham & marble hill is a slow crawl, I can't say that it's worse (slower) than a route running on fordham all the way to sedgwick... I'll be perfectly honest, I do almost anything to avoid taking the Bx12; largely b/c Fordham rd is what it is (congested)... It's similar to what I do when I need to get across town in manhattan (I don't remember the last time I boarded a crosstown bus... probably was during my lunch hour to hit up the pizza hut over around union sq. when I was still working in the Village (via a walk to 14th st), which was at least 2 yrs ago minimum)... So I'm reading these posts about a Bx24 reversion and I'm like, why would anyone want to spend more time on a bus along Fordham rd (if they didn't absolutely have to)... Push comes to shove, I'm taking the Bx9 - even if the reverted Bx24 had better headways than the Bx9 b/w Fordham & Marble hill or whatever....

 

I don't think the Bx9 needs LTD service (as was discussed earlier), nor a supplement.... It comes off as a band-aid type of a solution.

The problem is clearly w/ the Bx9, and reinstating the Bx24 isn't going to remedy whatever increases in ridership that'll occur along the current Bx9 route.... I understand a supplement is necessary in very few/rare cases; this to me isn't one of them.....

 

Await your response.

[Q43 Floral Park]

B35: I'd rather have a new route helping out bx7 and bx9 riders than to just use buses for Riverdale only short turns on the bx7. Could you clarify your suggestion on the bx9 service, it sounds like the current pattern but with buses actually turning at MH. Wouldn't we back to the issue of how would you turn around a route there?

 

you don't need all that service to 262 but you only have 3 terminal options; Marble Hill and DH to KB, run all the way to 262 or turn at 242. I've only encountered a few instances wherein Bway/242 was utilized as a northern terminal. It might clog the intersection with BL buses looping in the opposite direction amongst other things.

 

I'll second the vote for the Bx8 being the worst, I have seen it crowded and on time north of the square but never south of it. There really isn't a way to make it a more bearable route but I've always wondered why 226 was set as the terminal and not 233. Same goes for the Bxm10 ending at Boston Road. As often as that is out it always seemed off that the only express bus in the area doesn't travel that far north. I wonder if extending it to 233-Baychester Via Laconia would benefit Eastchester residents

 

 

BM5: 15 min headways rush hours else 20/30 mins and Oddly I'd be alright with cutting some bx9 service. The bunching is so bad as is it rarely comes at the correct frequency. 231 Street would be better as a short turn terminal if you had a place to do it and didn't have that choke point at 230. That's why I wanted the 24 to stay on Bailey, you send it through Marble Hill directly and it'll be stuck behind the Bx7/9/20/bxm1. it takes more time to get from Bway/225 to Bway/231 than it does to get from Fordham/Sedgwick to Bway/231.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

That was brought up about 2 or 3 months or so ago on here in this very thread (about the Bx1)....

 

If the revival of the Bx24 is meant to be a supplementary route, then it isn't much different than QJT's idea of running Bx22's to MNRR Marble Hill.... TBH, I don't like the idea of wanting to (intentionally) create new supplementary routes (or "layering", as it's been dubbed) - I'd aim to have every route serve at least one or two unique markets... And when I say markets, I don't mean specific blocks - in other words [for example], it running along Bailey av doesn't qualify as a market (but you probably already know that)...

 

side note: Maybe this would be a good idea for the NYCTF community as a whole, where there would be a glossary of terms stickied somewhere (bus seperate, subway seperate, railroad separate, combination of the 3 on one page), doesn't matter..... Back in the day, one of the transit forums had something like that, but I don't remember which one it was (it wasn't straps & it sure as hell wasn't/isn't subchat)...

 

something like this: http://www.sacrt.com/transitglossary.stm

-----

 

But yeah, now if the Bx24 of sorts is meant to be complementary, then that's something totally different (an example of that is the Bx1/2 & the Bx40/42).... An example of a supplementary route (to another bus route, I mean) is the Q100... Of course we have the Q60's, Q56's, B25's, Bx39's, etc. that supplement the subway.....

 

side note #2: Express buses are NOT supplemental nor complementary to local bus service in NYC.... Common misconception.

 

I'll use your route as an example... The Qm15 is is no way, shape, or form supplemental to the Q11/21/52/53 (laughing as I'm typing that); i.e. the QM15 doesn't help ANYONE along Woodhaven Blvd get to QCM (still lol).... Also, the Qm15 isn't complementary to the Woodhaven local routes either; i.e. the QM15 isn't necessary to assist anyone along Woodhaven to get to QCM - because it doesn't do it in the first place!

 

* Q11/21 are supplementary to each other, Q52/53 are supplementary to each other....

* any combination of the [Q11 or 21] & the [Q52 or 53] are complementary to each other;

(ex. the Q52 complements the Q11 - one is local, one is LTD, and both types of services are needed on Woodhaven)....

--------------

 

As for your question.... If the Bx24 entered Riverdale during the rush, where would the (more frequent) midday 24's terminate?

 

It running in Riverdale isn't the main disqualifier/deal breaker for me (although I believe anymore routes running in riverdale is excessive), it's the fact that it would use more of Fordham rd..... I should have disclosed that earlier this morning....

 

While the Bx9 b/w fordham & marble hill is a slow crawl, I can't say that it's worse (slower) than a route running on fordham all the way to sedgwick... I'll be perfectly honest, I do almost anything to avoid taking the Bx12; largely b/c Fordham rd is what it is (congested)... It's similar to what I do when I need to get across town in manhattan (I don't remember the last time I boarded a crosstown bus... probably was during my lunch hour to hit up the pizza hut over around union sq. when I was still working in the Village (via a walk to 14th st), which was at least 2 yrs ago minimum)... So I'm reading these posts about a Bx24 reversion and I'm like, why would anyone want to spend more time on a bus along Fordham rd (if they didn't absolutely have to)... Push comes to shove, I'm taking the Bx9 - even if the reverted Bx24 had better headways than the Bx9 b/w Fordham & Marble hill or whatever....

 

I don't think the Bx9 needs LTD service (as was discussed earlier), nor a supplement.... It comes off as a band-aid type of a solution.

The problem is clearly w/ the Bx9, and reinstating the Bx24 isn't going to remedy whatever increases in ridership that'll occur along the current Bx9 route.... I understand a supplement is necessary in very few/rare cases; this to me isn't one of them.....

 

Await your response.

 

If the Bx24 only entered Riverdale during the rush, I was thinking of terminating the buses at 231 St , or terminate at Riverdale Avenue with the Bx1 (if it terminated at 231 street , it would turn around via Kingsbridge and 230 street, then under the el.

 

Now, this rendition of the 24, given that enough time is given for the segment on Bailey, is comparable, and even less than in certain occasions. I didn't want to say how frequent this service would be beforehand, because I don't know the exact runtime before, but after kinda factoring it in, the headways would be 20 minutes. 

 

I mean, there has been complaints of erratic service on the Bx7 and Bx10, so to kinda solve that problem, during the rush hour, the 24 would run to 262 street, and run as a supplement to the Bx7. Then, it runs on Bailey, and then supplements the 12 on Fordham Rd from Sedgwick to 3 Avenue, because if it were to take Bailey itself, there would really be no other actual option to take, unless you make the 24 turn off Bailey at Kingsbridge Road, and then take the current Bx9 route (which the 9 doesn't serve that part of Kingsbridge, so it grasps more riders/ makes it beneficial to them, like you mentioned before). For What It's worth, I wouldn't keep it on Fordham Rd as much either, but unless you route it on Kingsbridge, there isn't a viable option, unless you route it on E 188 Street eastbound, but then that deviates from Fordham Center entirely (besides the area around 3 Avenue).

 

BM5: 15 min headways rush hours else 20/30 mins and Oddly I'd be alright with cutting some bx9 service. The bunching is so bad as is it rarely comes at the correct frequency. 231 Street would be better as a short turn terminal if you had a place to do it and didn't have that choke point at 230. That's why I wanted the 24 to stay on Bailey, you send it through Marble Hill directly and it'll be stuck behind the Bx7/9/20/bxm1. it takes more time to get from Bway/225 to Bway/231 than it does to get from Fordham/Sedgwick to Bway/231.

I see what you're saying. So if this 24 (hypothetically) were to remain on Bailey, and short-turn at 231 Street, would it be somewhat better?

Edited January 25, 2015 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[qjtransitmaster]

At least it's better than trying to put the Bx16 on I-87 "B" Stop it with the brownie points

nope actually that is much worse cause it would carry air. As with bx16 it is only on I-87 for 1 exit and would eliminate duplication with bx34 while creating a complete crosstown for the northern Bronx area and unlike the duplicate it would benefit way more riders. Don't be butthurt cause you were wrong for once.

[Q43LTD]

nope actually that is much worse cause it would carry air. As with bx16 it is only on I-87 for 1 exit and would eliminate duplication with bx34 while creating a complete crosstown for the northern Bronx area and unlike the duplicate it would benefit way more riders. Don't be butthurt cause you were wrong for once.

You proposed it dumb ass...

[qjtransitmaster]

You proposed it dumb ass...

seriously that's the best you can do you are simply not worth my time please stop replying to me I am NOT interested in your crap.

[B35 via Church]

B35: I'd rather have a new route helping out bx7 and bx9 riders than to just use buses for Riverdale only short turns on the bx7. Could you clarify your suggestion on the bx9 service, it sounds like the current pattern but with buses actually turning at MH. Wouldn't we back to the issue of how would you turn around a route there?

 

you don't need all that service to 262 but you only have 3 terminal options; Marble Hill and DH to KB, run all the way to 262 or turn at 242. I've only encountered a few instances wherein Bway/242 was utilized as a northern terminal. It might clog the intersection with BL buses looping in the opposite direction amongst other things.

 

I'll second the vote for the Bx8 being the worst, I have seen it crowded and on time north of the square but never south of it. There really isn't a way to make it a more bearable route but I've always wondered why 226 was set as the terminal and not 233. Same goes for the Bxm10 ending at Boston Road. As often as that is out it always seemed off that the only express bus in the area doesn't travel that far north. I wonder if extending it to 233-Baychester Via Laconia would benefit Eastchester residents

I thought you were talking about the Riverdale only short turns on the Bx9, since what was being talked about, was addt'l service to/from Fordham....

I don't know where/how any Riverdale short turns on the Bx7 plays into all this....

---

 

My suggestion for the Bx9 was made with the ideal premise that an off-street terminal was created somewhere b/w the RR tracks & 225th (which would end up being on mall property)....

 

....but I'll say that (in regards to the Bx9 specifically) this wouldn't be as much an issue if River Plaza came equipped with a niche/crevice/area for buses to terminate (so people can then shut up about running M100's there, for starters).... A full time street level/curbside terminal in Marble Hill isn't going to cut it, as we all come to realize here....

...was what I said.

 

Anyway, my suggestion (with the above quote in mind) is/was this:

- Some number of Bx9 trips run the full route... West Farms - Broadway/262nd.

- Some number of Bx9 trips run between West Farms & River Plaza....

- The current Bx9 short turn trips (which are the Broadway/262nd - River Plaza trips) would be discontinued.... Why, because again, I think there are too many Bx9's that run up to Broadway/262nd.....

[BxM4Woodlawn]

my idea, for rush hour service, have some Bx9's use Bailey between Kingsbridge Rd and Van Cortlandt Park South. That would save a TON of time. 

Also I fully support the idea of reviving the old Bx24 from Riverdale to Fordham. Even as a rush hour only service would be fine.

Also, how about re-routing the Bx22 to Broadway/238 St. via Goulden, Reservoir, Sedgwick, Ft Independence, 238th St.

Sounds like a good plan doesnt it.

[BxM4Woodlawn]

I think we should re-route the Bx1 onto Bailey Ave between Van Cortlandt and 231st St, then also extend the Bx2 to 231st St via Heath Ave.

Also think we should re-route the Bx10 to remain on 205th St between Paul Ave and Jerome Ave. it would still connect to every bus in that area, and the . 

[Q43LTD]

my idea, for rush hour service, have some Bx9's use Bailey between Kingsbridge Rd and Van Cortlandt Park South. That would save a TON of time. 

Also I fully support the idea of reviving the old Bx24 from Riverdale to Fordham. Even as a rush hour only service would be fine.

Also, how about re-routing the Bx22 to Broadway/238 St. via Goulden, Reservoir, Sedgwick, Ft Independence, 238th St.

Sounds like a good plan doesn't it.

No, sending the Bx22 to Riverdale is not a good idea. There is no demand for a Castle Hill-Riverdale route. Bedford Park is long enough

 

I think we should re-route the Bx1 onto Bailey Ave between Van Cortlandt and 231st St, then also extend the Bx2 to 231st St via Heath Ave.

Also think we should re-route the Bx10 to remain on 205th St between Paul Ave and Jerome Ave. it would still connect to every bus in that area, and the . 

You do know some Bx2's end in Riverdale? Why re-route the Bx1 to Bailey? Bailey has the Bx10. 

Edited January 30, 2015 by Q43LTD

[Via Garibaldi 8]

No, sending the Bx22 to Riverdale is not a good idea. There is no demand for Castle Hill-Riverdale route. Bedford Park is long enough

 

You do know some Bx2's end in Riverdale? Why re-route the Bx1 to Bailey? Bailey has the Bx10. 

Those Bx2's are actually Bx1's since the Bx1's don't run at that time.There is no need for any more local buses from Manhattan or the Bronx to Riverdale.  The Bx10 is really there to serve the workers coming from places in the Bronx like Norwood, etc., but it isn't Riverdalians that are using those buses past 231st street in large numbers. That's why so many Bx10's run to and from 231st street in the Bronx to Riverdale.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Via Garibaldi 8