(Q) Train after 2nd Ave Subway Built

[RollOver]

We have been through that countless times already, but we will wait until the agency officially confirms their final decision.

[RollOver]

BTW, to answer your question, unless more people go to work in Downtown Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan respectively, the Montague Street tube will not see 12-15 trains per hour other than the current 6-9 trains per hour. Neither will the 4th Avenue local stations. The current headway is enough to handle the loads, believe it or not.

[realizm]

I remember seeing some s at 36 St station in regular service when it was still running

 

The ran about 10 trains during its 2004-2010 service pattern. When the starts and ends service, it extends to/from Brooklyn via Montague, 4th Ave Local and Sea Beach.

 

You are all correct. Some trains were put in service straight from or to CI Yard in revenue service AM and PM rush. To me that was pretty damn useful to supplement the then Broadway Express when I was in a hurry to get to work, school or home.

[lupojohn]

We have been through that countless times already, but we will wait until the agency officially confirms their final decision.

Well, I didn't see it, so maybe you can tell me.

[RTOPRO]

I remember seeing some s at 36 St station in regular service when it was still running

That's because those trains had to lay their heads down somewhere while they weren't doing duty overnight. If you're going to send them to Coney Island yard, might as well have them do some work on the way. They can't steal all the spots at City Hall Lower.

[realizm]

That's because those trains had to lay their heads down somewhere while they weren't doing duty overnight. If you're going to send them to Coney Island yard, might as well have them do some work on the way. They can't steal all the spots at City Hall Lower.

 

I see. Knew there was more to this than what I initially thought but could'nt put my finger on it.

[traingoat]

That's incorrect. The Second Av El was IRT loading gauge (as was the Third Av El), and the Fulton St El was BMT loading gauge; they never ran together.

 

By the time the map was created, the IND Fulton Line already existed, and the Fulton El was actively being replaced. If you look at the 1939 proposal, the Fulton line is actually on Atlantic in Downtown Brooklyn; the Fulton El did not do this, but the IND did. Thus, the connection there is to the former Court St stop on the Fulton Local. (Coincidentally, this Second Avenue tunnel to Brooklyn is also south of the Joralemon St tunnel, meaning that the line was not running on the Brooklyn Bridge at all. The Second System actually proposed keeping the Myrtle Av connection over the Brooklyn Bridge; even though the map shows no Fulton Elevated, you can clearly see a Myrtle Av Line ending at Park Row.)

 

Think of the original Queensboro Plaza with IRT as both train widths were involved.  It wasn't sharing of trackage as the Plaza had with IRT width to Astoria and Flushing but stations as Queens Plaza had. The IND opened stations in Brooklyn about 1936 and I'm not claiming the accuracy of the map but gave it as no map of that time is on this site as it came from the subway site. The 1933 BMT map shows the system then with all of the Els and familiar stops on the A train of the Fulton El.  The els were removed in Brooklyn was because they couldn't take the weight of the cars needed.  Myrtle Avenue was still using wooden cars for use to the end as a steelcar would of brought the system down.

[Grand Concourse]

Yes, I had once sent in the suggestion, doing putins up there and seeing how it was layed out. The UWS extension veered west, while the 63rd St. connection goes east, so the trackway for the uptown local merges into the 63rd St. northbound trackway as if it was intended to connect. It's on the downtown side where the 63rd St. diverges from the local trackway, and there are columns inbetween.

So it was when I sent in the suggestion they replied it was already being looked at.

 

Recall, the original plan to bring SAS to lower Manhattan was to totally reconfigure the Canal St. area, so that the express leads tot he tunnel, and the local leads to the bridge.

That was totally ridiculous, and would be a major construction project that would impact both service and the streets above. But luckily, it fell by the wayside, because it was a compromise with the old "stubway" proposal that was set aside when they finally promised to do the whole line (eventually; who knows when now), in order to get the funds.

 

So now, this 57th St. area idea would be a better, much cheaper alternative (the structure would only need new supports when the columns are removed) if they wanted direct Wall St/ area service. I don't know why they didn't just think of that back then.

There are only five extra stops on the local, and since it's the BMT, and not as congested as the Lexington, and you don't have impedances like 14th with the gap fillers, that wouldn't matter as much, so it would still be a better alternative. (Having both a local and express would only make sense once it goes all the way up to 125th and had drawn a lot of people from up there, and they were willing to take away one of Astoria's services).

 

And it's of course also good for reroutes of the local via 63rd (which happen all the time now, and were a bit more difficult when 57th St. express tracks were or are being used as a terminal).

so basically have the Q (which i think is better than the N) serve astoria by itself, and then have the N and W serve 2nd av. That would allow the ues to have a direct local and express and the W would basically be manhattan only. That would then allow sas to have the service it needs, but not over serving the sea beach line which doesn't need so many trains around.

 

Q and N would both be express in manhattan and other than 49th st having just the R and W, it works for broadway keeping the merging issues simple. No more hold up at 34th st and prince st.

[Art Vandelay]

Sending just the Q to Astoria with the N/W up 2nd would overserve SAS while drastically underserving Astoria.

You can't just boost the N or Q for extra Astoria service to replace what is diverted to SAS. Dekalb has substantial trouble handling the service it has today! Just imagine the wreck it would be with 6-10 more trains an hour routed through. In theory, you could boost N train service and have the excess trains terminate before they get to brooklyn. That is what happened in the past, and what will almost certainly happen again. I suspect however, that like in the most recent incarnation of these short turn N trains, they will be labeled "W" to avoid confusion. (in the 1980s, these trains were labeled ) 

[RollOver]

I still don't understand why should the spend a large amount of money on the entirety of the or routes by 50% for. Has anyone even take consideration as to how many lines leave the CBDs seated load, fewer standees, fewer seats available or almost empty (depending on the time of the day)? Pretty much all of them. Yeah, not everybody works in the CBDs, but the can't always spend money on increasing service on every line. When there are other lines available that also provide additional service or other lines that serve the same area and also run parallel. It depends on ridership.

[NYtransit]

Yup, should be.

I would be not be suprised if they brought back the running also down 4th avenue local and down the west end line to replace the . 4th avenue line is also a heavily used line

[lupojohn]

I would be not be suprised if they brought back the running also down 4th avenue local and down the west end line to replace the . 4th avenue line is also a heavily used line

Replace the ? You think they'll discontinue it or re-route it?

[RollOver]

He's talking about replacing the old former that used to ran on 4th Ave/West End to/from Bay Pkwy...

[traingoat]

I am going back about 50 years on the BMT when they started running trains all over the place. Sea Beach and West End expresses stopped at 57th st and 4 ave and Brighton Xpress and lcl went to Queens. Now the BMT has a partially built lower station at City Hall as a terminus which could be completed, made fancy and fits close to the original 2nd avenue. So the Q and N are fully express from 57 th and the SAS train to city hall as local with the 4 th avenue. This new route is not going to Brooklyn for the simple reason the DeKalb interchange can't handle it or you are backing the system up. This can operate til they finish the rest of the SAS system You are not sending this new train to Carnasie as the need is to get people downtown Manhattan as the upper east side work in lower Manhattan.

[realizm]

I would be not be suprised if they brought back the running also down 4th avenue local and down the west end line to replace the . 4th avenue line is also a heavily used line

 

Well they did it before off record as mentioned by RTOPRO to get the R68's in the yard (Via the ROW) which I've seen for years as a Brooklyn resident dependant on the via Sea Beach. So who knows? But Whitehall may be the plan in mind once the SAS is in service, to replace prior Astoria service. If the funds are available its possible they may reinstate Broadway Express service too as was before, Sea Beach/B'way Express pre 2010 budget cuts.

 

And yes you know it, the 4th Ave line is a very crowded line up to past 8PM. I just got home on a crushloaded train as I write this. BTW +1 for the comment, very creative point.

 

We need that to downtown Manhattan back via tunnel. Bad enough we lost the Nassau St ( M ).  But the is a hit via Christie St cut so we will never see it again. So be it. Increased service via tunnel should do the trick for South Brooklyn riders, I'll be content with that.

 

Select trains rush hours to CI via Sea Beach to help the as done before would be great as well. 

 

This was the way it was to the benefit of Brooklyn riders before those blasted cuts. Us Brooklynites really got screwed with that drastic cuts in service.

[Grand Concourse]

On the W issue, it should be rush hours only and that's the only need for it. I never understood the all or nothing mentality about that line. All they had to do was keep the W for the rush hours and middays run the N local. That way the Q would've been left alone with out the confusion about some alternating Q trains running to Astoria. Sure the hit was to LM and they saved a few trains from running there, but the R will never be a decent line and should've had a back up line for all of Manhattan.

I think southern Brooklyn could've used a few trains (those 3 W trains), but till the tunnel is ready for service, for now the split R will have to do. At least since the R is the only line running local to Court st, there's no excuse about long gaps b/w trains for that segment.

[lupojohn]

Why not bring the back as a local and run it from 57th-7th to Coney Island the same way the runs?

[NYSubwayBuff]

What about Astoria? That is ridiculous, I mean if you would have said from 2 ave to C.I and leaving the at Astoria I would've agreed (if the route went through whitehall that is)

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Lance]

On the W issue, it should be rush hours only and that's the only need for it. I never understood the all or nothing mentality about that line. All they had to do was keep the W for the rush hours and middays run the N local. That way the Q would've been left alone with out the confusion about some alternating Q trains running to Astoria. Sure the hit was to LM and they saved a few trains from running there, but the R will never be a decent line and should've had a back up line for all of Manhattan.

I think southern Brooklyn could've used a few trains (those 3 W trains), but till the tunnel is ready for service, for now the split R will have to do. At least since the R is the only line running local to Court st, there's no excuse about long gaps b/w trains for that segment.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The W was a good supplemental line for the R in lower Manhattan. Also, removing the secondary line from Astoria (whether that's the current Q or the future W) would effectively cut service in half along the line unless service on the N was increased significantly. And as I've said before, sending all those Ns from Ditmars to Stillwell would be overkill. Some of those trains would have to be cut back, some to Whitehall. Rather than confuse riders with this quasy-N diamond route, it would be much better to simply bring back the W and run it through the entire day on weekdays instead of rush hours only.

Why not bring the back as a local and run it from 57th-7th to Coney Island the same way the runs?

That wouldn't solve anything. In fact, it would cause more problems than it would help. Since we're talking about when Second Avenue opens, the W wouldn't be able to use the express tracks at Midtown-57 St to terminate since the Q would be using them as through tracks to run to/from 96 St/2 Av. Also, like I said above, the N cannot handle Astoria alone with its current headways and simply increasing its TPH would not be ideal for the reason mentioned above. Also, why Coney Island and why Brighton? We really don't need a duplicate of the Q.

[realizm]

On the W issue, it should be rush hours only and that's the only need for it. I never understood the all or nothing mentality about that line. All they had to do was keep the W for the rush hours and middays run the N local. That way the Q would've been left alone with out the confusion about some alternating Q trains running to Astoria. Sure the hit was to LM and they saved a few trains from running there, but the R will never be a decent line and should've had a back up line for all of Manhattan.

I think southern Brooklyn could've used a few trains (those 3 W trains), but till the tunnel is ready for service, for now the split R will have to do. At least since the R is the only line running local to Court st, there's no excuse about long gaps b/w trains for that segment.

 

Agreed. It worked (the few trains sent down the Sea Beach on rush hours for many reasons for the superintendents and T/Ds and the customers a win win) pre budget cuts. Id say split the service in the sense of as done before having some of the trains terminate at Whitehall, others at Kings Highway on the Sea Beach or CI even.

Leave the as is to 2nd Ave at all times. Express will have to be reinstated because of the added local back in business to avoid major bunching at interlocking plus it will make the customers happy.

[Art Vandelay]

The whole point of the W is to serve Astoria, so there is no sense whatsoever in turning it at 57/7, nor is such a possibility as the terminal tracks will be through tracks when SAS opens.
As the whole point is to serve Astoria, and the N alone is not enough to serve Astoria during rush hours or middays, the W will be needed at roughly the same hours as it ran in the past. Remember- If Astoria did not need more than just the N during middays, the Q would be turning at 57/7 middays. The Astoria line is one of the fastest growing parts of the subway system, and I see no reason to expect that any cut to their train service will be considered absent major unforeseen changes to the area. Also, running rush hour only services saves very little, as all crews get paid 8 hours regardless. If your rush hour services are boosted above midday levels beyond a certain point, it starts to cost significantly more. (Or, I suppose you could consider additional midday services substantially cheaper to add at such a point. Either way, lots of rush hour only lines don't make much sense.)

[realizm]

The whole point of the W is to serve Astoria,

 

More importantly to serve the local stations along Broadway. Theres no way the can handle the passenger capacity needed by itself.

[Art Vandelay]

Yes, two locals are needed, however what the W adds is express service as it allows the N to run express. Without the W and with SAS, the local would not be underserved with the N and R.  

[RollOver]

And also remember, the entire reason why the train runs express between either 57th, 34th or Canal and 59th Streets is because it relieves crowding for long-distance riders traveling between Midtown Manhattan and South Brooklyn.

 

However, there's nothing wrong with it serving 49th, 28th, 23rd, 8th and Prince Streets, as it still provides additional service and gives riders direct express service via bridge/4th Avenue so riders don't have to transfer or meander through all local stations between Canal and Atlantic.

 

Being the system's local counterpart and feeder line, the part-time is extremely important to the in Queens and the in Manhattan/Brooklyn.

[Union Tpke]

If they restore the W to what it was before the service cuts, i wonder if they would be keeping the first three W trains of the day from 86 St and the last 3 W trains of the day to Kings Highway. I hope so. Has anyone here been on them or seen them?