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More Service Coming to the L and M Lines

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realizm

realizm

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Posted

While those are good points realizm, it really has nothing to do with sending the M up to Harlem. You can't have the M running up to Forest Hills during the week and Harlem on weekends is very confusing for riders. That's why we'll likely never see such service patterns like the ones Wallyhorse consistently posts. The idea of keeping things simple for riders must be paramount.

True, another good point, we wouldn't want to get customers lost with all these routes on the CPW at once on weekends.

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CenSin

CenSin

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Posted

 

Well allow me to respond as he quoted my post. I will have to disagree with your proposal and I will take my time to explain why:

 

1) The C in terms of passenger demand is not as heavy on weekends as compared to weekdays as far as I know (Dont live on the UWS so I'll let others who do correct me on that if I am a bit off).

 

Anyway: If it is needed if usage jumps all that needs to be done is to increase C service. Which is exactly what operations plans may call for when the R32s retire and replaced by R179's which will in turn increase the size of the fleet allowing for RTO Division to do just so. First test train to arrive this December. The MDBFs causing delays on the C because of the aging R32s to be replaced will be solved with NTTs on the line soon, in high numbers on the 8th Avenue/CPW local via Fulton.

 

2) 145th Street is a major switch junction and therefore a choke point. We have two lines coming in from the Washington Heights line ( the A and C) at off peak hours (6 TPH +6 TPH = 12TPH) plus on lower level on weekends the D at 6 TPH. (6 x 3) = 18 TPH on the IND CPW. Thats pretty heavy for that much traffic to squeeze into 4 tracks at 125th Street. To mitigate delays the lines has to run in solid continuity without delays due to relays of an additional route at 145th. 

 

*But I would like to bring back up the fact that increased D service on weekends will be a major boost to accommodate for skyrocketing rates of ridership at many local stations (Weekends). Another reason as to why the M should not be run there. 

 

3) So for these reasons sending the M to 145th will certainly result in redundant service and also worsen the choke point at that two level station and junction on weekends. At rush hours that point is a mess as it is with the A B C D to be properly dispatched by the T/Ds. But for necessary reasons due to the fact that its rush hour they have no choice but to provide frequent service on the feeder lines that goes into the CPW. Weekends are a different story thats what you need to consider.

 

Yes weekend ridership is high on weekends but that does not justify M service on the IND Central Park West due to operation costs vs passenger demands. The C actually doesn't run that bad even as it is from what I've seen on weekends, not too shabby despite the substandard MDBFs with the R32s on the line. So it isnt needed.

 

5) RTOman already pointed out that sending the M to Forest Hills will end up in higher costs which has to be considered. The MTA could reroute E trains as locals as an option as an alternative to make up for gaps in the R if passenger ridership demands at local stations on the Queens Blvd Line gets any higher. So were pretty locked in. I guess thats why we will not see the M run past Essex and I accept his reasoning from his T/O expertise. 

 

Interesting proposal, but in my respectful opinion it will not work for the above reasons. Those are my thoughts. 

 

4) And how will the (M) get from the Jamaica tracks onto the 8 Avenue tracks? ;)

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GreatOne2k

GreatOne2k

Posted
Posted

While those are good points realizm, it really has nothing to do with sending the M up to Harlem. You can't have the M running up to Forest Hills during the week and Harlem on weekends is very confusing for riders. That's why we'll likely never see such service patterns like the ones Wallyhorse consistently posts. The idea of keeping things simple for riders must be paramount.

 

You mean never see service patterns like those again (outside of GOs)

 

The MTA used to run service like this, the (B) (168 St, 21 St-Queensbridge) and (C) (145/BPB, 168)

 

NYCTA used to run the (2) to several terminals based on time of day (Dyre/180, 241)

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RTOMan Train Operator

RTOMan

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Notice nothing Else from Mr RTrainBlues in this thread... That thing called facts can mess up a good audience....


While those are good points realizm, it really has nothing to do with sending the M up to Harlem. You can't have the M running up to Forest Hills during the week and Harlem on weekends is very confusing for riders. That's why we'll likely never see such service patterns like the ones Wallyhorse consistently posts. The idea of keeping things simple for riders must be paramount.

 

Its all about the Dollars something which TA will do their best not to pay for extra Crews if not needed.  

 

Folks see a train they will get on it..

 

Also somebody pointed out no way to get FROM CPW to Queens Blvd anyway.

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West End

West End

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Back to the topic:

 

Running the (M) to Essex St. on weekends might not be the ideal extension, but it's an improvement nonetheless.  It'll increase service on the Jamaica Line (Marcy to Myrtle-Broadway) and lessen the number of transfers needed.  This should also help alleviate passenger congestion on the (L), since many riders along Myrtle Ave. avoid taking the (M) shuttle and prefer to walk to the (L).

 

I could be mistaken, but I don't believe weekend ridership on the Queens Blvd. line calls for the (M) to be extended there.

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Snowblock Train Operator

Snowblock

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All I can say is once this M to Essex service starts, I feel for the customers (not to mention the crews) who will be riding the (F) between Delancey and 23 St on weekends. It's bad enough getting 90% of the (J) riders transferring there, now you're gonna get Myrtle Ave customers who used to just take the (L) in. The weekend (F) is gonna become even MORE of a nightmare!

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CenSin

CenSin

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All I can say is once this M to Essex service starts, I feel for the customers (not to mention the crews) who will be riding the (F) between Delancey and 23 St on weekends. It's bad enough getting 90% of the (J) riders transferring there, now you're gonna get Myrtle Ave customers who used to just take the (L) in. The weekend (F) is gonna become even MORE of a nightmare!

And hopefully, as a result, the MTA will be forced to increase weekend (F) service (so folks upstream and downstream will wait less), or simply cut back the (M) again.

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Wallyhorse

Wallyhorse

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And hopefully, as a result, the MTA will be forced to increase weekend (F) service (so folks upstream and downstream will wait less), or simply cut back the (M) again.

Or send the (M) to 71st-Continental, which may have to happen 24/7 anyway at some point due to the Domino rebuild once that is complete to take pressure off the (L).

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Lance

Lance

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Or send the (M) to 71st-Continental, which may have to happen 24/7 anyway at some point due to the Domino rebuild once that is complete to take pressure off the (L).

You do realize that this Domino plant will not employ everyone in New York, right?

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bobtehpanda

bobtehpanda

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Or send the (M) to 71st-Continental, which may have to happen 24/7 anyway at some point due to the Domino rebuild once that is complete to take pressure off the (L).

 

The faith you have in singular building projects is really quite heartwarming. It's a couple of apartments, not a new borough.

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Snowblock Train Operator

Snowblock

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Posted

Or send the (M) to 71st-Continental, which may have to happen 24/7 anyway at some point due to the Domino rebuild once that is complete to take pressure off the (L).

There's a new comic book store that just opened around the corner from me. We're gonna have to start running the (B) on weekends to the Bronx to handle the demand! And some select (4) Bronx express runs too.

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CenSin

CenSin

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Posted

You do realize that this Domino plant will not employ everyone in New York, right?

The faith you have in singular building projects is really quite heartwarming. It's a couple of apartments, not a new borough.

There's a new comic book store that just opened around the corner from me. We're gonna have to start running the (B) on weekends to the Bronx to handle the demand! And some select (4) Bronx express runs too.

You folks all made the point in a more succinct way. I was going to repost my reply (which he apparently ignored) to the exact same proposal he made on another thread, but there's no need now. Some people are apparently like one-trick horses.

 

@Lance: Domino isn't moving in though; they're being replaced.

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Kamen Rider Conductor

Kamen Rider

Posted
Posted

Demand gets you nowhere.

 

Money gets you everywhere.

 

Lets look at it this way. Why do they need to spend the money to have two services on the Broadway Brooklyn at all times, three services on 6th Ave at all times and three services on Queens Blvd at all times?

 

Just to remind you that this extension to Essex is daytime only, at nights it's still going to be only to Myrtle Ave. It will also be operated OPTO with 4 car units.

 

The Domino project will add about 2000 new apartments. Lets say each is occupied by three people as an average. that's 6000 people, and in the scale of the movement of people on the subway, that's not actually a whole lot. You could move then all on 3 trains. You're also assuming they're all going to want to use the subway to go to the same place at the same time. Some might reverse commute further east. some might stay nearby and not even want the subway. Having the MTA expend God only knows how much just for THIER needs just doesn't make sense.

 

Compare with Hudson yards, which is getting it's own subway station because it is obviously going to be a focus point (and before you start with that idea again, the C is too far away, and the number of people going from the Culver line to Hudson yards is not going to be high enough to justfy you starting with that idea again)

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CenSin

CenSin

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You may very well be right, but my point is there will be more demand there when the project is complete.

And our point is that the demand is not significant when compared to the things you propose. The MTA would need to spend millions to do what you propose, and that's all for a tiny project?
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RTOMan Train Operator

RTOMan

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Posted

Actually, that's just part of a increased ridership as a whole on the (M), NOT JUST the Domino project or any other one project PLUS the needs of those on the QB side who complain about the (R) not being enough as a local.

You have been told that due to this five year signal work project that extra service along Queens blvd will be difficult... Do you even ride those trains on the weekend? I know first hand what it's like with 12 minute head ways it's insane....

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West End

West End

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Actually, that's just part of a increased ridership as a whole on the (M), NOT JUST the Domino project or any other one project PLUS the needs of those on the QB side who complain about the (R) not being enough as a local.

 

Simply put, weekend ridership levels on the Queens Blvd. Line isn't high enough to have the (M) run there. The (R) has enough transfer points to express trains that it's rarely crowded between Queens Plaza and Lexington Ave.  Decrease the headways of the (R) to 8 minutes if needed.  If the (M) were to ever be extended past Essex St., it would probably terminate somewhere along 6th Ave.

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