Running less cars at night

[Bill from Maspeth]

The M doesn't run OPTO during the week for a few reasons.  First, the late PM guys work the shoulder of the PM rush and finish between 1 and 2 AM when the midnight crews take over and work thru the AM rush.  So you need c/r's for those runs anyway.  The work programs are not set up where everybody finishes at night when the last trains from CTL arrive at Met and you don't have all crews starting when service to CTL starts in the morning.  Some do, but not all.  In other words, there are no crews who do shuttles only starting around 11PM and finishing around 7 AM.  Shuttles from Met to Bw/My leave from 11:20 PM to 5:04 AM then a mixture of shuttles and main line trains for an hour.  Therefore, it really isn't worth cutting and adding for such a short amount of time, especially since you have lots of lay-ups and put ins as it is. The more cuts, adds and put ins you have the more personnel you need to do it.   For example: a line runs 8/8 car trains on the midnight, and you want to run 4 car trains instead, that means you cut 4 trains in half and send 4 trains to the yard.  You need manpower to do this, they have to walk to or from the yard plus they get 45 minutes to prepare a train for service when they are needed to come back.

 

They run OPTO on weekends to save money.  Period.  True it goes into Manhattan but it's only one stop, it doesn't go thru it.

[realizm]

The M doesn't run OPTO during the week for a few reasons.  First, the late PM guys work the shoulder of the PM rush and finish between 1 and 2 AM when the midnight crews take over and work thru the AM rush.  So you need c/r's for those runs anyway.  The work programs are not set up where everybody finishes at night when the last trains from CTL arrive at Met and you don't have all crews starting when service to CTL starts in the morning.  Some do, but not all.  In other words, there are no crews who do shuttles only starting around 11PM and finishing around 7 AM.  Shuttles from Met to Bw/My leave from 11:20 PM to 5:04 AM then a mixture of shuttles and main line trains for an hour.  Therefore, it really isn't worth cutting and adding for such a short amount of time, especially since you have lots of lay-ups and put ins as it is. The more cuts, adds and put ins you have the more personnel you need to do it.   For example: a line runs 8/8 car trains on the midnight, and you want to run 4 car trains instead, that means you cut 4 trains in half and send 4 trains to the yard.  You need manpower to do this, they have to walk to or from the yard plus they get 45 minutes to prepare a train for service when they are needed to come back.

 

They run OPTO on weekends to save money.  Period.  True it goes into Manhattan but it's only one stop, it doesn't go thru it.

 

Ok now I definitely get it.

[N6 Limited]

If you split up trains into shorter sets to make night service, there might not be enough for regular service.

There are orders that still have to be delivered, instead of discarding "old" train sets just split them and use them overnight

[realizm]

What the MTA employees are saying is that it is just simply too expensive to run 4 car OPTO on a nightly basis 7 days a week on full time service routes. What they are saying is that to break down 10 or 8 car sets into 4 or 5 car sets respectively just to link them back together into 10 and 8 car sets for the next morning rush (this in itself can take hours and extra manpower to begin with...) is basically a waste of time, money and resources. Additionally it just makes day to day operations way too complex for its own good and nobody wants that.

 

Of course the exception is the weekend shuttles since its only a weekend operation, they can break the cars down and not worry until Sunday night. But to do this around the clock 7 nights a week risks damage to the car components, will cost twice as much in terms of payroll and makes operations simply too haphazard and complicated. Its definitely all about efficiency and preventing cost overruns, particularly labor costs as all the T/Os here are trying to explain.

[Fresh Pond]

The costs of paying dozens of conductors to work full 8 hour shifts all weekend are significantly less than building in time Friday night/Saturday morning and Sunday night/Monday morning to handle a few cuts before the weekend and adding the trains back for the weekdays once it has ended.

 

It would be a different story if doing this every night, for a full length line, as opposed to simply bookending the weekend on a line that has been cut back from its normal length.

 

That's the MTA's logic with the M.

 

It's also why the M doesn't run OPTO overnight during the week.

I learned something new here, thanks.

 

But 2 questions I have: going by what you just said about the , then why are the OPTO lines split up? Also where exactly do they split the OPTO trains at anyway?

[Eric B]

Even under the old Nassau line service that ended around 8, there were no jobs that did shuttles only. The last job started at 1800 something and did one trip to Broad (after Bay Pkwy service ended) and then shuttles. Still, the jobs before that all had a Bay Pkwy trip, and the earliers midnights would finish with one on the morning.

[biGC323232]

The M doesn't run OPTO during the week for a few reasons.  First, the late PM guys work the shoulder of the PM rush and finish between 1 and 2 AM when the midnight crews take over and work thru the AM rush.  So you need c/r's for those runs anyway.  The work programs are not set up where everybody finishes at night when the last trains from CTL arrive at Met and you don't have all crews starting when service to CTL starts in the morning.  Some do, but not all.  In other words, there are no crews who do shuttles only starting around 11PM and finishing around 7 AM.  Shuttles from Met to Bw/My leave from 11:20 PM to 5:04 AM then a mixture of shuttles and main line trains for an hour.  Therefore, it really isn't worth cutting and adding for such a short amount of time, especially since you have lots of lay-ups and put ins as it is. The more cuts, adds and put ins you have the more personnel you need to do it.   For example: a line runs 8/8 car trains on the midnight, and you want to run 4 car trains instead, that means you cut 4 trains in half and send 4 trains to the yard.  You need manpower to do this, they have to walk to or from the yard plus they get 45 minutes to prepare a train for service when they are needed to come back.

 

They run OPTO on weekends to save money.  Period.  True it goes into Manhattan but it's only one stop, it doesn't go thru it.

 

I never knew that...Thanks for the info

[N6 Limited]

What the MTA employees are saying is that it is just simply too expensive to run

 

What the MTA employees are saying is that it is just simply too expensive to run 4 car OPTO on a nightly basis 7 days a week on full time service routes. What they are saying is that to break down 10 or 8 car sets into 4 or 5 car sets respectively just to link them back together into 10 and 8 car sets for the next morning rush (this in itself can take hours and extra manpower to begin with...) is basically a waste of time, money and resources. Additionally it just makes day to day operations way too complex for its own good and nobody wants that.

 

Of course the exception is the weekend shuttles since its only a weekend operation, they can break the cars down and not worry until Sunday night. But to do this around the clock 7 nights a week risks damage to the car components, will cost twice as much in terms of payroll and makes operations simply too haphazard and complicated. Its definitely all about efficiency and preventing cost overruns, particularly labor costs as all the T/Os here are trying to explain.

 

Of course the exception is the weekend shuttles since its only a weekend operation, they can break the cars down and not worry until Sunday night. But to do this around the clock 7 nights a week risks damage to the car components, will cost twice as much in terms of payroll and makes operations simply too haphazard and complicated. Its definitely all about efficiency and preventing cost overruns, particularly labor costs as all the T/Os here are trying to explain.

 

 

What if they "split" trains that stay split and are only used overnight? Start putting them in the storage of say 179th Street, Jamaica Center, Euclid, Lenox, etc around 10PM. One full train pulls in, the "Yard T/O" pulls out a short train for the next crew, etc.

[realizm]

What if they "split" trains that stay split and are only used overnight? Start putting them in the storage of say 179th Street, Jamaica Center, Euclid, Lenox, etc around 10PM. One full train pulls in, the "Yard T/O" pulls out a short train for the next crew, etc.

 

That would make sense I guess but only if we had a sizable surplus of cars on the B division. We dont right now for various reasons. An operation like that will surely take up alot of cars.

[ttcsubwayfan]

What if they "split" trains that stay split and are only used overnight? Start putting them in the storage of say 179th Street, Jamaica Center, Euclid, Lenox, etc around 10PM. One full train pulls in, the "Yard T/O" pulls out a short train for the next crew, etc.

 

You make enough of these short trains and there won't be enough long trains to make service.

[RTOMan]

Cuts are made at Met if I recall.

[Trainmaster5]

It's obvious, at least to me, that even after the present and former RTO employees explain it clearly some people miss the point. Why would the start cutting and adding trains at the present time? In the IRT we did it in the early '80s because the equipment wasn't in good enough shape to run everything full length on every line 24/7. Once the R62s and R62A equipment were deployed the practice was stopped. I really can't speak for the B1/B2 divisions but I guess the reasoning was the same. The and NYCT RTO and CED are neither rich nor totally inept no matter what some railfans may think. Why should they pay extra money to employees in RTO and CED to make these cuts at 11pm or so just to add the same pieces back together 5 hours later? Each cut or add has the potential to damage the equipment if something goes wrong while adding unnecessary wear and tear on the couplers. Even if nothing goes wrong you're still paying the same $ to a T/O and a C/R whether the train consist has 4,5,8,10, or 11 cars except under OPTO. With cuts and adds you're going to pay additional personnel $ for what reason? The idea sounds like what used to be called "make work" where things were shuffled around just for the sake of it. The electrical bill isn't going to decrease if you run less cars but it's payroll will increase for no reason. IMO that doesn't make sense. Carry on.

[NYSubwayBuff]

Just my two cents

I want this to happen I did for a long time but until this can be done with simplicity e.g. a train pulling in with 10 cars and leaving with 5 in 15 mins with the other 5 departing later. But this cannot happen if all this manpower is needed especially with the budet gap

[Trainmaster5]

Just my two cents

I want this to happen I did for a long time but until this can be done with simplicity e.g. a train pulling in with 10 cars and leaving with 5 in 15 mins with the other 5 departing later. But this cannot happen if all this manpower is needed especially with the budet gap

It's not that it can't happen as it's happened in the past. The question I pose to you is why you want this to happen. Leaving aside the cost for a minute what benefit does a 5 car train have over a full length train in your opinion ? Are you saying you've never seen a train being cut or added up ? IIRC the OPTO shuttles are cut at Dyre or East 180th St and the at Metropolitan. The and Franklin run short trains at all times but they're not cut in stations. As I pointed out in an earlier post cutting trains in stations was a regular thing. I've cut trains at 242nd St and I've operated 5 car trains that were cut in New Lots station back in the early '80s. I'm not criticizing you I'm trying figure out your fascination with cut trains. Carry on.

[MTA Dude]

Just wondering, what is the car amount assignments for the ? I keep hearing 4 car, then 6 cars, then 8 cars? What?

[Gong Gahou]

The G currently runs half-length 4-car trains, and was previously 6 cars (450').

Outside of official assignments, there was also rare sightings of it running full-length 8 or 10 cars.

[Wallyhorse]

It's not that it can't happen as it's happened in the past. The question I pose to you is why you want this to happen. Leaving aside the cost for a minute what benefit does a 5 car train have over a full length train in your opinion ? Are you saying you've never seen a train being cut or added up ? IIRC the OPTO shuttles are cut at Dyre or East 180th St and the at Metropolitan. The and Franklin run short trains at all times but they're not cut in stations. As I pointed out in an earlier post cutting trains in stations was a regular thing. I've cut trains at 242nd St and I've operated 5 car trains that were cut in New Lots station back in the early '80s. I'm not criticizing you I'm trying figure out your fascination with cut trains. Carry on.

I think its some people who remember when trains were always cut short at night (as noted, I remember many times in the early morning circa 1983-'84 riding four-car trains), especially where trains had cars that were literally empty in the late night hours.

[NYSubwayBuff]

It's not that it can't happen as it's happened in the past. The question I pose to you is why you want this to happen. Leaving aside the cost for a minute what benefit does a 5 car train have over a full length train in your opinion ? Are you saying you've never seen a train being cut or added up ? IIRC the OPTO shuttles are cut at Dyre or East 180th St and the at Metropolitan. The and Franklin run short trains at all times but they're not cut in stations. As I pointed out in an earlier post cutting trains in stations was a regular thing. I've cut trains at 242nd St and I've operated 5 car trains that were cut in New Lots station back in the early '80s. I'm not criticizing you I'm trying figure out your fascination with cut trains. Carry on.

I want this to be done so there would be less train sets on the road, and the trains that would've been on the road but are not could be repaired and cleaned during this time. I am not especially familiar with the 6 at night but if its possible so Westchester can maintain their shitty cars

[ttcsubwayfan]

The amount of trains used at night is substantially less than during the day. If Westchester actually wanted to begin taking care of their garbage, there's nothing that prevents them from doing so as-is.

[Quill Depot]

I'd like to point out the subject of less crime. An assault is less likely to happen on a subway car with 10 people in it, than two.

[Trainmaster5]

I want this to be done so there would be less train sets on the road, and the trains that would've been on the road but are not could be repaired and cleaned during this time. I am not especially familiar with the 6 at night but if its possible so Westchester can maintain their shitty cars

Quick heads up for you. Whichever 20 cars or so are scheduled to be inspected/repaired on a specific night will be sent to the barn(s) after the pm rush. The cars to be cleaned will be done overnights.It doesn't matter how many cars are off the road on any given night the amount being worked on will not vary that much weeknights. If you have 8-10 cleaners and 6-10 car inspectors on duty that's it. Again,it won't matter how many cars are on/off the road it depends on the size of the workforce on duty. Of course if you or the wants to increase the amount of workers on duty overnights as I pointed out earlier it costs more money to cut, add, clean and inspect/repair that equipment. See my point ? Carry on.

I'd like to point out the subject of less crime. An assault is less likely to happen on a subway car with 10 people in it, than two.

Why not sit in the C/R's cars then ? Common sense says you don't sit by yourself in the rear of a 4/5/10 car train and that's always been the case.

[RTOMan]

I'd like to point out the subject of less crime. An assault is less likely to happen on a subway car with 10 people in it, than two.

That's what the CRs position is for.... You wanna sit in the 9th or 10th car around those hrs Yer asking to get jacked...

I want this to be done so there would be less train sets on the road, and the trains that would've been on the road but are not could be repaired and cleaned during this time. I am not especially familiar with the 6 at night but if its possible so Westchester can maintain their shitty cars

Money money money let me know where you can find it to add to the extra crew cost.... Yet I respect your opinion.