R211 Discussion Thread

[Kamen Rider]

shuffling the 46s around is just kicking the can down the road.

The problems they are facing just become someone else's problem's... it doesn't actually fix them; it doesn't make them go away. 

Do we really need to beat this dead horse again?

[Ale188]

3 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

shuffling the 46s around is just kicking the can down the road.

The problems they are facing just become someone else's problems... it doesn't actually fix them; it doesn't make them go away. 

Do we really need to beat this dead horse again?

Now since you said that, I feel like they should stay in the lines they are on now. The A, C, N, Q, W, and RP shuttle. Maybe the MTA could do that with any rolling stock that is about to retire soon. Just let that rolling stock stay on the lines that it is on right now so they won't tear down faster. I mean, obviously, the MTA doesn't think far enough, so it won't do that. They would move some 46s to Non-CBTC lines (like the B, D, possibly the FA shuttle), but we'll see what goes on.

[Kamen Rider]

The thing about transit is people tend to think of the MTA and its decision making as monolithic…

 

it really isn’t. In the department of subways alone is seven subdivisions and each of those are subdivided further.

like, which car classes are used where, that’s not the decision those of us in RTO/“Service Delivery” make. That’s Car Equipment’s decision. If they want to relocate the R46s out of Pitkin yard tomorrow and swap in R68s, that’s well within their authority.

[darkstar8983]

56 minutes ago, Ale188 said:

Now since you said that, I feel like they should stay in the lines they are on now. The A, C, N, Q, W, and RP shuttle. Maybe the MTA could do that with any rolling stock that is about to retire soon. Just let that rolling stock stay on the lines that it is on right now so they won't tear down faster. I mean, obviously, the MTA doesn't think far enough, so it won't do that. They would move some 46s to Non-CBTC lines (like the B, D, possibly the FA shuttle), but we'll see what goes on.

That idea sounds good in practice but it never happens, especially with every order of NTTs ordered. There are always yard swaps, even with retiring equipment. Examples;

 

R142/R142A

Redbirds from the  retired first (by R142s)

redbirds from the  moved to the

R62As from the  shifted to the

R62s from the  moved to the  

 

R143

No subway car retirement, just moves all R42s off of the  to the

R40Ms from  moved to Coney Island for

R40S from  moved to Coney Island for  and weekend  

R42s from  moved to  

R32s from  moved to Jamaica for

Additional R46s moved to  

 

R160 order

R42s from  temporarily moved to Jamaica for  and to Pitkin for  service

R40S and R40M moved from  to  (Slant R40s exclusive to the , R40Ms ad R42s for Jamaica), then retired.

 

R179 order

split fleet for  (  supplement R179s with R46s** and  supplement R179s with R143s and R160s)

**R46s for the  post 2020, R32s prior in addition to some R46s. Some R32s also observed in daily  service from 2018 onwards outside of summer swaps

Jamaica R46s to Coney Island  , Coney Island R160s to Jamaica for

 

 

The reason I bring this up to answer your question is because one needs to consider the learning curve involved in teaching crewmembers at each yard how to maintain a new subway car type. Example: Coney Island not having to have been responsible for daily maintenance of R46s prior from at least the 1970s until 2020, or Pitkin / Jamaica having to be responsible for maintenance of R40/R40M and R42 equipment during their retirement. Also dont forget when thee R179s were out of service and the R160s filled in for half the  fleet. Those R160s had to rotate in and out of Jamaica Yard whenever the train needed to go in for maintenance (it was never the same 210 cars on average that were "assigned" to Pitkin). 

Edited May 10, 2023 by darkstar8983

[R32 3838]

On 5/9/2023 at 11:20 AM, 4P3607 said:

Someone a while back posted an explanation noting that while it would have seemed logical to keep a small amount of R-32s for spare factor / contingency service, there is overall a greater effort required with having more train cars to service versus a smaller spare factor; Meaning equipment can be worked on + placed back into service quicker if there's overall less trainsets to maintain. 

Also spotted an R-46 set along the A yesterday with new LED interior lighting (along with a bunch of R-68/As). Did not catch any numbers as it passed me going the other way, however quite interesting if more Pitkin's R-46 receive any type of upgrade with their foreseen retirement.

This is what they did with the R32's between Fall of 2020 and Fall of 2021, They decided to retire the R32 fleet once the first set of R211s touched property and it bit them in the ass when the R211s started having multiple teething problems during testing (which is normal hence the testing) thus delaying the 30 day test until spring 2023. So they had to do full service with barely any spares and having ABD's up the ass on the / not only because of crew shortages but also equipment shortages. The R46s were decent on the until after 2021 when they started to take a hit.

Now if anything were to happen, They wouldn't bring the R32s back. It would be too costly to retrain new hires and re-inspect them. It was have to be a huge emergency if that were the case.

 

Right now can't afford to retire anything until they have enough cars. R211s issues will eventually be solved and we can move on from this. 

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

2 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

The thing about transit is people tend to think of the MTA and its decision making as monolithic…

 

it really isn’t. In the department of subways alone is seven subdivisions and each of those are subdivided further.

like, which car classes are used where, that’s not the decision those of us in RTO/“Service Delivery” make. That’s Car Equipment’s decision. If they want to relocate the R46s out of Pitkin yard tomorrow and swap in R68s, that’s well within their authority.

Do you have any insight insight into how specifically fleets are assigned? I think to us on the outside it can often seem arbitrary, but I bet they have a system.

[subwaycommuter1983]

23 hours ago, foggymetro said:

We're talking about the R211 and anything related to it, such as possible assignments. What does the 3 train, which is part of the A division, have to do with the R211, which is part of the B division.

I know.

I was just mentioning all the lines in general that will get service increases.

[NBTA]

Is it me or this specific topic has been in circles for about 50-75 pages? 

[subwaycommuter1983]

6 hours ago, Ale188 said:

Now since you said that, I feel like they should stay in the lines they are on now. The A, C, N, Q, W, and RP shuttle. Maybe the MTA could do that with any rolling stock that is about to retire soon. Just let that rolling stock stay on the lines that it is on right now so they won't tear down faster. I mean, obviously, the MTA doesn't think far enough, so it won't do that. They would move some 46s to Non-CBTC lines (like the B, D, possibly the FA shuttle), but we'll see what goes on.

The BD will not get r46's and the r68's won't stay on the BD either. 59th Street is included in 8th Avenue CBTC and 6th Avenue will get CBTC too.

BDs will most likely get a good chunk of option order 1 of r211's, although we can't ruled out the possibility that the BDs may get r160's from Jamaica. There was even one media outlet that pretty much confirmed that the BD will get the r211's after the AC. Let's see what happens.

Edited May 11, 2023 by subwaycommuter1983

[Kamen Rider]

2 hours ago, NBTA said:

Is it me or this specific topic has been in circles for about 50-75 pages? 

No. It’s not you. Some people keep looping back to the same issues. 

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

I feel like I've said this before, but since CBTC enabeled lines will be prioritized to get the NTTs, maybe you should take criticism on which lines the MTA chose to do CBTC on. I think the super busy Queens Blvd line is a huge reason they're focusing on the IND right now, and as a consequence less "important"/busy lines like  and  are going to be prioritized for NTTs.

The thing about the BMT is there are not really any high ridership corridors that need the maximal trains per hour (the exception is the  which was the first CBTC line). I would argue there are more annoying bottlenecks and junctions on the BMT that slow things down relative to the IND, but signals can only do much in many of these cases since a lot is just track geometry severely limiting top speed or certain junctions forcing trains to cross in front of each other.

One thing that's really nice about the IND is there are no super-sharp curves and all the junctions are well-designed and grade separated, meaning CBTC's impact could be huge and allow for insane tphs on some of these quad-track IND lines

Edited May 11, 2023 by ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ

[1998NewFlyer]

54 minutes ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

I feel like I've said this before, but since CBTC enabeled lines will be prioritized to get the NTTs, maybe you should take criticism on which lines the MTA chose to do CBTC on. I think the super busy Queens Blvd line is a huge reason they're focusing on the IND right now, and as a consequence less "important"/busy lines like  and  are going to be prioritized for NTTs.

The thing about the BMT is there are not really any high ridership corridors that need the maximal trains per hour  

Well l guess you haven't been on 4th av in bk during rush hour. That area definitely needs CBTC 

[Jdog14]

1 hour ago, 1998NewFlyer said:

Well l guess you haven't been on 4th av in bk during rush hour. That area definitely needs CBTC 

 

Wont matter with ABDs up the wazoo on the D and N daily. 

[darkstar8983]

5 hours ago, 1998NewFlyer said:

Well l guess you haven't been on 4th av in bk during rush hour. That area definitely needs CBTC 

But we come back to the issue of track geometry that someone mentioned earlier. The BMT just has too many slow speed zones that limits the maximum output to only 24 TPH realistically and some sections even less. The interlining is just made worse because of these bottlenecks. Look at the Brighton Line, 60 St tunnel, lower manhattan Broadway, and 4 Av. Those lines come to a slow speed zone due to tight curves which reduce their top speed

[JustTheSIR]

6 hours ago, 1998NewFlyer said:

Well l guess you haven't been on 4th av in bk during rush hour. That area definitely needs CBTC 

It won’t work until Broadway and 6th Avenue also get CBTC to time arrivals and switches on 4th Avenue

[Lawrence St]

13 hours ago, NBTA said:

Is it me or this specific topic has been in circles for about 50-75 pages? 

THANK YOU!

[subwaycommuter1983]

13 hours ago, 1998NewFlyer said:

Well l guess you haven't been on 4th av in bk during rush hour. That area definitely needs CBTC 

That will happen eventually, but what 4th Avenue really needs is more local service, whether by extending the W or the Z. Unfortunately, we would have to wait until the subway car shortage in the B division is fixed, which will happen once all r211's is in service.

[1998NewFlyer]

43 minutes ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

That will happen eventually, but what 4th Avenue really needs is more local service, whether by extending the W or the Z. Unfortunately, we would have to wait until the subway car shortage in the B division is fixed, which will happen once all r211's is in service.

That's true and yes your right about that

[Vulturious]

So new digital bullets for the  have finally been shown. An Orange diamond SI bullet which obviously is going to be for express service while I'm going to assume local service is going to be a blue circle SI. Now all that is left is to figure out what the announcements are.

[Ale188]

4 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

So new digital bullets for the  have finally been shown. An Orange diamond SI bullet which obviously is going to be for express service while I'm going to assume local service is going to be a blue circle SI. Now all that is left is to figure out what the announcements are.

WTF!!! Why SI? Did it not for SIR? It literally looks like the F express but for Staten Island! I'm done!

[trainfan22]

I can see why they didn't put "Tottenville Express" or "St George Express" in the sign.... the sign above the storm door already shows that information so the route bullet sign had to show something lol

Edited May 11, 2023 by trainfan22

[AZthefoamer]

6 minutes ago, Vulturious said:

So new digital bullets for the  have finally been shown. An Orange diamond SI bullet which obviously is going to be for express service while I'm going to assume local service is going to be a blue circle SI. Now all that is left is to figure out what the announcements are.

Not what I expected at all, but it sort of makes sense. Yes, the announcements will be interesting.

[foggymetro28]

Also the side and interior signage.

[RedLine]

It looks red

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, RedLine said:

It looks red

The person that took the image said it was orange so I ain't complaining, maybe it's red, maybe it isn't. It's at CIY so whoever is planning on taking the  to/from Coney Island, have fun catching a glimpse of it.