L Train Service Between Brooklyn & Manhattan May Be Shut Down For Years

[CenSin]

If only there was an alternative route available for 14th St. Maybe they could run a bus route on the surface stopping at all the major avenues. They could even name it after 14th St. The '14' bus, if you will. 

 

We shouldn't humor anyone dumb enough to take the between 8 Av and Union Sq. You'd waste so much time trying to get to the deep platform at 8 Av that walking or a bus would probably be faster.

It’s not that slow descending the stairs. Descending the stairs to get to the train is probably faster than waiting for a bus to come. But how often the train runs is another matter. It’s going to suck if the runs only every 10 minutes. With that headway, I can make the trip on my own feet with better average travel times.

[Fresh Pond]

My plan for the Manhattan portion of the would be to take several sets of four-car trains across before the closure and use those as a Manhattan shuttle between 1st and 8th Avenues, storing 1-2 trains if possible on the layup track between 6th and 8th Avenues and the others as needed EITHER just inside whichever tunnel is NOT completely closed OR when needed using one of the tracks between 1st and 3rd Avenue (single tracking on the other). There are still those who use the between Union Square and 8th Avenue in particular and that likely won't change.

...and if they decide to shut down both tunnels simultaneously, then how are those shuttle trains gonna get in/out of Manhattan to get serviced?

[Wallyhorse]

...and if they decide to shut down both tunnels simultaneously, then how are those shuttle trains gonna get in/out of Manhattan to get serviced?

The belief (in a few circles) is one of those tunnels would have to be in use to shuttle things back and forth, especially at the ends, which would allow for trains to be swapped out at certain times when needed.  

 

The idea likely would be to split four trains into eight sets of four for this service.  As has been noted in other places, minor work can likely be done on the layup track, especially in the overnight when such a shuttle would likely be single-tracked on the full route between 1st and 8th Avenue because it would be the only train running at that time.  

 

Given how jammed up 14th Street on the surface is prone to getting, such a shuttle is worth having, especially for those on 1st Avenue for whom the ride likely saves some time.  

[CenSin]

The belief (in a few circles) is one of those tunnels would have to be in use to shuttle things back and forth, especially at the ends, which would allow for trains to be swapped out at certain times when needed.  

 

The idea likely would be to split four trains into eight sets of four for this service.  As has been noted in other places, minor work can likely be done on the layup track, especially in the overnight when such a shuttle would likely be single-tracked on the full route between 1st and 8th Avenue because it would be the only train running at that time.  

 

Given how jammed up 14th Street on the surface is prone to getting, such a shuttle is worth having, especially for those on 1st Avenue for whom the ride likely saves some time.  

They can shuttle things back and forth using disel-powered work trains in cases where the third-rail has to be taken out. I think this is one of those cases where it is advisable to disconnect the power from the third rail since the tunnel is going to be so busy with workers.

[Wallyhorse]

They can shuttle things back and forth using disel-powered work trains in cases where the third-rail has to be taken out. I think this is one of those cases where it is advisable to disconnect the power from the third rail since the tunnel is going to be so busy with workers.

It all depends.  If they can kill power to the tunnel without shutting down 1st Avenue in particular, it would be worth it.

 

Even if they have to single-track at 1st and 3rd Avenue, it may be worth doing having three shuttle trains operate between 1st and 8th Avenue (since the switch is right before 3rd Avenue, or during rush hours, select trains can terminate at 3rd Avenue on the opposite track of the one single-tracked between 1st and 3rd Avenue).  It could be done during rush hours (only) similar to the TS-GC shuttle where T/O's are at both ends and when in the rear act as C/R's (but ONLY during peak hours when most likely as many as four four-car trains would be operating).  

 

The idea is to prevent 14th Street crosstown on the street from becoming worse than it is at times as that can have a ripple effect elsewhere otherwise. 

[RailRunRob]

You guys are imaginative I'll give you that! Pragmatic?... not so much

[RailRunRob]

It all depends.  If they can kill power to the tunnel without shutting down 1st Avenue in particular, it would be worth it.

 

Even if they have to single-track at 1st and 3rd Avenue, it may be worth doing having three shuttle trains operate between 1st and 8th Avenue (since the switch is right before 3rd Avenue, or during rush hours, select trains can terminate at 3rd Avenue on the opposite track of the one single-tracked between 1st and 3rd Avenue).  It could be done during rush hours (only) similar to the TS-GC shuttle where T/O's are at both ends and when in the rear act as C/R's (but ONLY during peak hours when most likely as many as four four-car trains would be operating).  

 

The idea is to prevent 14th Street crosstown on the street from becoming worse than it is at times as that can have a ripple effect elsewhere otherwise. 

That's way to much and for what?! What's the projected ridership along 14th during repairs? That 300,000 goes out the window especially with people using other crossings into Brooklyn. Where do most people originate?. Same question as before?. Am I wrong for thinking that most people only come to the 14th St area to transfer to the ? Besides maybe Union Square which is served by 6 other lines. If I work in Midtown on 7th and live in Bushwick. Im not transferring at this point. Im by passing the 14th St. corridor altogether.  Im taking or to reconnect to the on the other side. Im not getting off to take a Shuttle or Shuttle bus to get back on the train.. Sure there are some people east of Union square need a shuttle. But I can't see it being a crush load anything more than of dedicated bus lane can handle. If people are bypassing that corridor altogether because there trips originate someplace else and on other lines beside . I can't see more then 30% of trips originating on 14th St itself most of those are transfers. We can't put together plans when we don't understand the problem and the numbers among other things. Anybody have the stats on the Canarsie line? Stations and ridership stats?

[checkmatechamp13]

They'd better run those trains between 71 Av and 2 Av or else Queens Blvd will be a mess...

 

Yeah, I love how this talks about everything they're doing to boost service in the BMT south yet they're decidedly quiet on how they're going to shore up queens blvd. 

 

The thing is, a 25% reduction in peak service means that one in every 4 trains will terminate at 2nd Avenue, which means uneven loading with the trains that continue to Brooklyn.

 

I would think the would be the peak express (Junction-Myrtle-Marcy in the AM, Marcy-Myrtle-Junction in the PM) when this happens, if only to minimize all the switching moves between Marcy and the Junction. Presumably the would terminate on the middle track at Broadway Junction, right?

 

I think the idea is that they have all the trains run local, so riders coming off connecting buses have the maximum amount of options to catch the train at. (Somebody coming from Ridgewood or Maspeth can stay on the B38 or B57 to Kosciosko Street or Flushing Avenue and still catch a train to Midtown). Likewise, somebody who lives within walking distance of Halsey Street can just take the B26 down to Broadway/Halsey and still be able to catch a train to Midtown there).

 

I'm not sure what the timeline is of the rehabilitation vs. the rehabilitation. But either way, running local ensures that the connects with all connecting buses. 

 

That's way to much and for what?! What's the projected ridership along 14th during repairs? That 300,000 goes out the window especially with people using other crossings into Brooklyn. Where do most people originate?. Same question as before?. Am I wrong for thinking that most people only come to the 14th St area to transfer to the  ? Besides maybe Union Square which is served by 6 other lines. If I work in Midtown on 7th and live in Bushwick. Im not transferring   at this point. Im by passing the 14th St. corridor altogether.  Im taking   or   to reconnect to the   on the other side. Im not getting off to take a Shuttle or Shuttle bus to get back on the train.. Sure there are some people east of Union square need a shuttle. But I can't see it being a crush load anything more than of dedicated bus lane can handle. If people are bypassing that corridor altogether because there trips originate someplace else and on other lines beside  . I can't see more then 30% of trips originating on 14th St itself most of those are transfers. We can't put together plans when we don't understand the problem and the numbers among other things. Anybody have the stats on the Canarsie line? Stations and ridership stats?

 

Well, the annual ridership and daily ridership are easy to find. You would need a specific origin-destination matrix to figure out where line riders are traveling to. (And then you also have to factor in connecting buses. Somebody taking say, the B38 to the is likely to just stay on until they reach Broadway and catch their train over there).

 

But yes, your reasoning is correct. 

[RailRunRob]

The thing is, a 25% reduction in peak service means that one in every 4 trains will terminate at 2nd Avenue, which means uneven loading with the trains that continue to Brooklyn.

 

 

I think the idea is that they have all the trains run local, so riders coming off connecting buses have the maximum amount of options to catch the train at. (Somebody coming from Ridgewood or Maspeth can stay on the B38 or B57 to Kosciosko Street or Flushing Avenue and still catch a train to Midtown). Likewise, somebody who lives within walking distance of Halsey Street can just take the B26 down to Broadway/Halsey and still be able to catch a train to Midtown there).

 

I'm not sure what the timeline is of the rehabilitation vs. the rehabilitation. But either way, running local ensures that the connects with all connecting buses. 

 

 

Well, the annual ridership and daily ridership are easy to find. You would need a specific origin-destination matrix to figure out where line riders are traveling to. (And then you also have to factor in connecting buses. Somebody taking say, the B38 to the is likely to just stay on until they reach Broadway and catch their train over there).

 

But yes, your reasoning is correct. 

Thank for at least telling me i'm not crazy.

[itmaybeokay]

The thing is, a 25% reduction in peak service means that one in every 4 trains will terminate at 2nd Avenue, which means uneven loading with the trains that continue to Brooklyn.

 

So you're saying, cut service 25% across the board and royally mess up queens blvd and midtown for the sake of even loading on the trains that go to brooklyn? 

[LTA1992]

So you're saying, cut service 25% across the board and royally mess up queens blvd and midtown for the sake of even loading on the trains that go to brooklyn? 

That wouldn't mess up Queens Boulevard or Midtown though...

 

They would maintain 100 percent service.

[checkmatechamp13]

So you're saying, cut service 25% across the board and royally mess up queens blvd and midtown for the sake of even loading on the trains that go to brooklyn? 

 

The runs about 8 TPH in the peak direction, and the runs around another 8-9 TPH (and it runs 600-foot trains). So taking away 2 480-foot trains is around a 10% reduction in local capacity. When you consider riders transferring to the express, it's less than a 5% reduction in overall capacity. Will it be pleasant? No, but it won't be an apocalypse.

[RailRunRob]

Posted 12 February 2016 - 09:32 AM

Wallyhorse, on 12 Feb 2016 - 02:43 AM, said:

The idea is to focus the   on the MUCH more heavily ridden portion between Broadway Junction and in this case Bedford Avenue.

Sure, some riders from Canarsie would be inconvenienced, but if they transfer anyway at Broadway Junction they would still do so while if they normally take the Broadway-Brooklyn line from there anyway they now have a one-seat ride through that part.  

The "Bus Bridges" between Brooklyn and Manhattan I do think will be needed if at all possible, but I would also look at a special express bus shuttle that would begin at Myrtle-Wyckoff and stop only at Myrtle-Broadway before then running non-stop to Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center where people can transfer to the lines there plus the OOS transfers to/from the   and   as well.    I would as well look at doing an express bus shuttle the other way from Myrtle-Wyckoff to 71st-Continental (no stops) for those looking for Midtown.

The only way a bus bridge is going to work is if it can work at the very minimum SBS levels or better. All the routes you proposed are at the mercy of local traffic.. no need to over complicate in my opinion. This would really just be a extension of the M14A with a (Non stop) from 2nd ave and 14th to Essex street       via the M15's bus lanes. and a direct run over the Bridge and off at exit 32 to Lorimer    . All that's really needed is a Bus lane on 14th and a dedicated Bus lane on the Bridge at least at peak times. Only limit I can see is the amount to buses maybe needed and available. 

 

Route breakdown

 

- All stops via bus lane on 14th street.

 

(Via SBS M15)

 

- Essex     

 

(Express via BQE)

 

-Lorimer   

---------------

Seems I wasn't so crazy after all. The only logical way.

 

 http://secondavenuesagas.com/2016/04/06/deeper-dive-rpas-l-train-proposal/

 

[N6 Limited]

There's a switch west of 3rd Ave and east of Bedford Ave, can't they program CBTC to use those switches efficiently for single track usage between Union Square and Lorimer Street. Could probably run trains every 10 -15 mins. And in the morning they can do conga line bunches of 2- 3 trains in a row to 8th Ave. 

[Wallyhorse]

There's a switch west of 3rd Ave and east of Bedford Ave, can't they program CBTC to use those switches efficiently for single track usage between Union Square and Lorimer Street. Could probably run trains every 10 -15 mins. And in the morning they can do conga line bunches of 2- 3 trains in a row to 8th Ave. 

That would be a big problem.  That what why one of the suggestions made would be to have a handful of four-car sets put in Manhattan before the shutdown with a Manhattan shuttle running between 1st and 8th Avenue (with trains running in both directions on the same track between just west of 3rd Avenue and 1st Avenue).  

[RailRunRob]

That would be a big problem.  That what why one of the suggestions made would be to have a handful of four-car sets put in Manhattan before the shutdown with a Manhattan shuttle running between 1st and 8th Avenue (with trains running in both directions on the same track between just west of 3rd Avenue and 1st Avenue).  

What's the ridership numbers to support that? In borough travel along 14th street? Buses can't handle that?

There's a switch west of 3rd Ave and east of Bedford Ave, can't they program CBTC to use those switches efficiently for single track usage between Union Square and Lorimer Street. Could probably run trains every 10 -15 mins. And in the morning they can do conga line bunches of 2- 3 trains in a row to 8th Ave. 

yep something like this if you're waiting at Bedford Avenue. Every 12 Mins or so.

 

 

North tube repair.

 

X= Lormer switch

B= Bedford Ave Station

T= Third Ave Switch

 

Manhattan bound  X+B+T = 7mins

Canarsie Bround   T+B+X = 6 mins

 

Manhattan Bound 

02,14,26,38,50

Canarsie Bound    

00,12,24,36,48

[N6 Limited]

That would be a big problem.  That what why one of the suggestions made would be to have a handful of four-car sets put in Manhattan before the shutdown with a Manhattan shuttle running between 1st and 8th Avenue (with trains running in both directions on the same track between just west of 3rd Avenue and 1st Avenue).  

Why would that be a big problem? People would prefer that over a bus bridge, The MTA/NYCT Bus logo(s) should be a snail.

 

What's the ridership numbers to support that? In borough travel along 14th street? Buses can't handle that?

Many are riding between subway lines or to from other subway lines. No one wants to be stuck on buses on Manhattan streets if they don't have to.

[Wallyhorse]

What's the ridership numbers to support that? In borough travel along 14th street? Buses can't handle that?

In this case, it's street traffic and the residual effects of that traffic running across 14th Street that could have an adverse affect on the street grid.

 

14th Street is slow even in normal times and while the additional bus traffic caused by the being shut down between 1st and 8th Avenues could be enough to not be itself an issue, it, coupled with the all of the other traffic already on that stretch could create problems that potentially include gridlock.  That's why it's likely important to have the still running as a shuttle in Manhattan between 1st and 8th Avenues even if ridership otherwise might not warrant such.  

[RailRunRob]

In this case, it's street traffic and the residual effects of that traffic running across 14th Street that could have an adverse affect on the street grid.

 

14th Street is slow even in normal times and while the additional bus traffic caused by the being shut down between 1st and 8th Avenues could be enough to not be itself an issue, it, coupled with the all of the other traffic already on that stretch could create problems that potentially include gridlock. That's why it's likely important to have the still running as a shuttle in Manhattan between 1st and 8th Avenues even if ridership otherwise might not warrant such.

I'm confused isn't this why there proposing dedicated bus lanes across the length of 14th?

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2016/04/06/deeper-dive-rpas-l-train-proposal/

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wallyhorse]

I'm confused isn't this why there proposing dedicated bus lanes across the length of 14th?

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2016/04/06/deeper-dive-rpas-l-train-proposal/

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I saw that, but I think that would be a mistake because of the potential unintended consequences of the buses being there.  Even with dedicated bus lanes, the additional traffic would be a likely major issue with that potentially causing gridlock.

 

It would likely be better to have a handful of four-car trains be shipped over to be used on the during the shutdown (with spots to store trains and use for inspections when needed) and have that run as a shuttle between 1st and 8th Avenue.   That likely avoids a potential gridlock problem additional buses may cause.  

[Around the Horn]

 

What's the ridership numbers to support that? In borough travel along 14th street? Buses can't handle that?

 

yep something like this if you're waiting at Bedford Avenue. Every 12 Mins or so.

 

 

North tube repair.

 

X= Lormer switch

B= Bedford Ave Station

T= Third Ave Switch

 

Manhattan bound  X+B+T = 7mins

Canarsie Bround   T+B+X = 6 mins

 

Manhattan Bound 

02,14,26,38,50

Canarsie Bound    

00,12,24,36,48

 

I'd rather have the M14L and no train if that's gonna be the schedule...

[RailRunRob]

I saw that, but I think that would be a mistake because of the potential unintended consequences of the buses being there.  Even with dedicated bus lanes, the additional traffic would be a likely major issue with that potentially causing gridlock.

 

It would likely be better to have a handful of four-car trains be shipped over to be used on the during the shutdown (with spots to store trains and use for inspections when needed) and have that run as a shuttle between 1st and 8th Avenue.   That likely avoids a potential gridlock problem additional buses may cause.  

Inspections underground? 14ft ceilings? How do get a replacement motors or supplies? more complicated than has to be. Get the DOT out there enforcement the lanes especially at rush hour. Most of the ridership is going to Brooklyn.. im going to get off at 1st ave and still do what get on a bus?.. It's 15-18 Months of pain for growth the next 40 years.. Just rip the Band-Aid off  people will live.

 

3rd ave to Lorimer via 8 mins.

via Bus Bridge 16 mins under optimum conditions.

I'd rather have the M14L and no train if that's gonna be the schedule...

My sentiments exactly!

[BreeddekalbL]

ha ha ha ha i would like to ask gail brewer is she a damn idiot?

http://www.amny.com/transit/l-train-shutdown-should-be-avoided-manhattan-boro-chief-says-1.11652425

[RailRunRob]

ha ha ha ha i would like to ask gail brewer is she a damn idiot?

http://www.amny.com/transit/l-train-shutdown-should-be-avoided-manhattan-boro-chief-says-1.11652425

In her defense she more then likely doesn't understand what the task is at hand and how it connects to the larger picture. You would think this would serve as a example of why it's important to invest in transportation. Our city relies to heavily on investments made 3-4 generations ago. Take. Take where's our investment for riders 80-100 years from now? People? I'll never understand them!

[Wallyhorse]

Inspections underground? 14ft ceilings? How do get a replacement motors or supplies? more complicated than has to be. Get the DOT out there enforcement the lanes especially at rush hour. Most of the ridership is going to Brooklyn.. im going to get off at 1st ave and still do what get on a bus?.. It's 15-18 Months of pain for growth the next 40 years.. Just rip the Band-Aid off  people will live.

The idea is there would be times where stuff has to be transported via one of the tunnels anyway for work on the other, and those times could be used to take trains needing inspection back and forth.  That's one reason why I would have eight sets of four-car trains in Manhattan even if only say 2-3 are in use at any one time (and three likely is the realistic maximum that could be used at any one time in this setup). 

 

The main thing is even if you have the bus lane(s) on 14th Street operate properly, other streets could become jammed up as a result of traffic being moved there the residual effects of such wind up being gridlock.  That is why I have the shuttle on the between 1st and 8th avenue because I see people still wanting to drive and refusing to understand why such with buses would be done.