L Train Service Between Brooklyn & Manhattan May Be Shut Down For Years

[CenSin]

You might have to figure out a way to be able to do maintenance on the Manhattan side because I suspect pols are going to insist on 14th Street on the Manhattan end being kept open during the tunnel shutdown out of the concerns I have and constituents who live east of 1st Avenue whose only other subway options there are Essex-Delancey and 2nd Avenue at Houston (which has a 1st Avenue entrance/exit).

This reminds me of some small town government passing a law making it illegal to rain on the fourth of July festivities. Politicians sure will ask for the impossible, but it’s obvious what they’re going to get. During the tunnel closure, there may not be any tracks at all in the river tunnels, so maintenance would be impossible for the shuttle.

[Lance]

Half of it with regard to building the ADA facility on the Avenue A end.  That part will NOT be needed during that time.

 

You might have to figure out a way to be able to do maintenance on the Manhattan side because I suspect pols are going to insist on 14th Street on the Manhattan end being kept open during the tunnel shutdown out of the concerns I have and constituents who live east of 1st Avenue whose only other subway options there are Essex-Delancey and 2nd Avenue at Houston (which has a 1st Avenue entrance/exit).

They can insist until the end of time. If the tunnels are out of service due to structural repairs, no service can run on the Manhattan side. You run the risk of getting trains trapped on that side. And before you throw out one of your hair-brained ideas, no, they cannot create some kind of maintenance facility along the Canarsie tracks in Manhattan.

 

Sometimes, I feel like we're stuck in a loop...

[T to Dyre Avenue]

They can insist until the end of time. If the tunnels are out of service due to structural repairs, no service can run on the Manhattan side. You run the risk of getting trains trapped on that side. And before you throw out one of your hair-brained ideas, no, they cannot create some kind of maintenance facility along the Canarsie tracks in Manhattan.

 

Sometimes, I feel like we're stuck in a loop...

I tried to explain this to him on Subchat where he posted the exact same thing.

[CenSin]

I tried to explain this to him on Subchat where he posted the exact same thing.

You’ve gotta hand it to him though. Persistence can make a man very successful. He should be a lobbyist (if he isn’t already).

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Well, his "Orange ( T )" proposal may actually have some merit, especially if the does indeed determine they can't afford to lose the middle track north of Queens Plaza for disabled trains or to turn back northbound trains if service on the Queens Blvd Line gets boned or if they're afraid of delays in northbound and service with extra trains relaying at QP and having to get everyone off who doesn't understand that those trains aren't going further into Queens.

[B46 via Utica]

Well, his "Orange ( T )" proposal may actually have some merit, especially if the does indeed determine they can't afford to lose the middle track north of Queens Plaza for disabled trains or to turn back northbound trains if service on the Queens Blvd Line gets boned or if they're afraid of delays in northbound and service with extra trains relaying at QP and having to get everyone off who doesn't understand that those trains aren't going further into Queens.

Ehhh I think 99% of his proposals don't make sense it's like a dog chasing after its own tail everything he proposes something it gets put down.

[Wallyhorse]

I tried to explain this to him on Subchat where he posted the exact same thing.

The problem is, even if you are right, I still think pols, either themselves or their constituents fearful of gridlock creating other problems as well as those who actually use the as the 14th Street crosstown demanding polls tell the there must be a Manhattan shuttle for the duration of the tunnel shutdown no matter how difficult it is to happen.  

 

If they do shut it down and we do see the level of gridlock I think is possible, pols will likely in my opinion be demanding the MTA institute a Manhattan shuttle very quickly even if it delays doing work on the elsewhere to do it.

[Lance]

I tried to explain this to him on Subchat where he posted the exact same thing.

Why did I look at that Subchat thread? I can visualize a map very clearly without little problem, but Wally's crazy idea gave me a headache. I'm still trying to figure out how his "brown (K)" route helps anyone. Running from Canarsie to Chambers St like the old #14 is damn near impossible with the and running along Broadway as well. Running that route to 168 Street is even more difficult with the multiple merges you need to get there.

 

Then, there the question of how this actually helps in regards to the Canarsie tube shutdown. Riders on the east end of the line have not had direct service to the Centre St line since the limited runs in the '70s. While I'm sure some would appreciate such a route, they shouldn't be your target demographic when it comes to the tube closure. While the run to 168 Street is slightly better (still terrible though), it has all the problems any potential Culver express route has along with being extremely long and serving little purpose other than linking the extreme ends of the Canarsie line in a one-seat affair.

 

Any route that comes from Brooklyn-Broadway and heads up Central Park West must make several merges to get from point to point. It's like he saw the merging delays at Herald Sq and said "I can do better". Secondly, his new 8th Ave/Canarsie route is as long as the current line. Where are the cars coming from for this? Last I checked, following the delivery of the R179s, there won't be any more cars for the East coming in. Unless you plan on keeping all the R32s and R42s, there aren't enough cars for that. Thirdly, like his route to Chambers St, it doesn't solve the problem where the majority of the riders are.

 

You’ve gotta hand it to him though. Persistence can make a man very successful. He should be a lobbyist (if he isn’t already).

With as many times as he's mentioned how his precious "pols" will not like X, it's hard to believe he doesn't work for some city congressman or some other public official.

 

Well, his "Orange ( T )" proposal may actually have some merit, especially if the does indeed determine they can't afford to lose the middle track north of Queens Plaza for disabled trains or to turn back northbound trains if service on the Queens Blvd Line gets boned or if they're afraid of delays in northbound and service with extra trains relaying at QP and having to get everyone off who doesn't understand that those trains aren't going further into Queens.

I completely forgot about his brown and orange both running across the Williamsburg Bridge. Fitting the and on there would be interesting to say the least. Probably impossible too.

 

The problem is, even if you are right, I still think pols, either themselves or their constituents fearful of gridlock creating other problems as well as those who actually use the as the 14th Street crosstown demanding polls tell the there must be a Manhattan shuttle for the duration of the tunnel shutdown no matter how difficult it is to happen.  

 

If they do shut it down and we do see the level of gridlock I think is possible, pols will likely in my opinion be demanding the MTA institute a Manhattan shuttle very quickly even if it delays doing work on the elsewhere to do it.

See my previous response.

[Wallyhorse]

First:

The "Brown " idea actually was not mine, it was someone else's on Sub-Chat as I noted a while back.  This was my subsequent response to that post.

Then there is the issue of what riders want.  Given what was posted on Gothamist on February 25, what I suggested as bad as it is (and I even admit it's far from the best way of doing it but more the best of a bad choice of options) is at least somewhat realistic compared to the demands THEY were seeking (including most notably building a third tunnel before any shutdowns).   

As for the pols, it's based on what I have seen over time.  I suspect with 14th Street they will either demand Manhattan service on the between 1st and 8th Avenue is kept in place at all time so their constituents who actually use the to get across 14th Street OR if we see gridlock frequently on 14th Street and is causes major traffic disruptions demand the as quickly as possible re-instate service on the Manhattan part of the .  

[CenSin]

Then there is the issue of what riders want.  Given what was posted on Gothamist on February 25, what I suggested as bad as it is (and I even admit it's far from the best way of doing it but more the best of a bad choice of options) is at least somewhat realistic compared to the demands THEY were seeking (including most notably building a third tunnel before any shutdowns).   

 

As for the pols, it's based on what I have seen over time.  I suspect with 14th Street they will either demand Manhattan service on the between 1st and 8th Avenue is kept in place at all time so their constituents who actually use the to get across 14th Street OR if we see gridlock frequently on 14th Street and is causes major traffic disruptions demand the as quickly as possible re-instate service on the Manhattan part of the .  

They can only demand what is possible. Let it be known that they must choose from these options:

1. Package #1: Full shutdown in Manhattan

   Time: 18 months

   Perks: upgraded stations

   Cons: no service for 18 months

2. Package #2: Partial shutdown in Manhattan

   Time: 3 years

   Perks: upgraded stations

   Cons: severely reduced service for 3 years due to single-tracking and inability to do certain upgrades to stations since they are in use

3. Package #3: Weekend shutdown in Manhattan

   Time: 7 years

   Perks: weekday availability

   Cons: no station upgrades and no weekend service for 7 years

4. Package #4: No Fix

   Time: none

   Perks: continued availability…

   Cons: …until the tunnel collapses, and then 14 Street will be another with the same old stations

As you can see, each comes with a set of pros and cons. A more serious con is missing the one-time deal to piggyback station improvement work on top a full closure.

[Lance]

But but but but the "pols"...

 

Seriously though, if the MTA does go with the partial closure option, I don't want to hear about how the project is taking too long and that Sandy happened X years ago and the project is still not finished.

[Kamen Rider]

First:

 

The "Brown " idea actually was not mine, it was someone else's on Sub-Chat as I noted a while back.  This was my subsequent response to that post.

 

Then there is the issue of what riders want.  Given what was posted on Gothamist on February 25, what I suggested as bad as it is (and I even admit it's far from the best way of doing it but more the best of a bad choice of options) is at least somewhat realistic compared to the demands THEY were seeking (including most notably building a third tunnel before any shutdowns).   

 

As for the pols, it's based on what I have seen over time.  I suspect with 14th Street they will either demand Manhattan service on the between 1st and 8th Avenue is kept in place at all time so their constituents who actually use the to get across 14th Street OR if we see gridlock frequently on 14th Street and is causes major traffic disruptions demand the as quickly as possible re-instate service on the Manhattan part of the .  

 

For the umpteenth time...

the riders don't get a say on this.

the pols don't get a say on this.

 

This is the MTA's decision to make. If no one else likes it, well, too F'in bad.

[BreeddekalbL]

anyone want to school these uneducated people regarding the L shutdown? look at the comments on the facebook page, i debated someone but he's very clueless who thinks the longer option is good of singletracking etc

https://www.facebook.com/NBCNewYork/posts/10154110966739099

[Kamen Rider]

sometimes, details are needed. track plans, time tabled, a map for that idiot who doesn't seem to know how far Bedford and Marcy are apart...

 

half an hour? seriously, both of my grandmothers use walkers and could probably make that trip quicker...

[Train92]

Here's my proposal:

 

Manhattan: shuttle trains operate between 8th Avenue and 1st Avenue. When building the elevators, alternate the track that he shuttle train at 1st and 3rd. have 1 tube open for NIS trains.

 

Brooklyn: train service operates between Lorimer Street and Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway. Increase service on the   buses for service to the and trains.

 

trains will have a OOS transfer between Broadway and Hewes Street. (yes i know it has been proposed a lot of times before.)

 

Conductors will tell passengers at B'way Junction to transfer to the to Manhattan and at Graham Avenue for the  bus.   

 

[checkmatechamp13]

Conductors will tell passengers at B'way Junction to transfer to the to Manhattan and at Graham Avenue for the  bus.   

 

I think the can handle the extra passengers a lot better than the B24 bus, and you don't save any transfers -B24- vs. --

 

The service on the crosstown routes should (and likely will) be increased anyway, so passengers can take a direct ride from their respective stop down to Broadway.

[Wallyhorse]

Here's my proposal:

 

Manhattan: shuttle trains operate between 8th Avenue and 1st Avenue. When building the elevators, alternate the track that he shuttle train at 1st and 3rd. have 1 tube open for NIS trains. 

That is the exact way I would handle it, the idea being work trains would be able to access and bring in/take back cars for normal inspections on a regularly scheduled basis.  

[CenSin]

That is the exact way I would handle it, the idea being work trains would be able to access and bring in/take back cars for normal inspections on a regularly scheduled basis.

You’re talking about package #2 then:

 

 

 

• Package #2: Partial shutdown in Manhattan

  Time: 3 years

  Perks: upgraded stations

  Cons: severely reduced service for 3 years due to single-tracking and inability to do certain upgrades to stations since they are in use

It doesn’t sound very palatable: http://library.rpa.org/pdf/RPA-A-New-L-Train-for-New-Yorkers.pdf

 

I wonder if it has occurred to any proponents of keeping a single track around that the MTA will have to do work underneath the tracks since that too is a portion of the damaged tunnel. The MTA could also put the track back into place every time it is to be used (such as for the weekend shutdown option or 14 Street shuttle), but think about the incredible waste that comes with putting tracks down and tearing them out repeatedly for short periods of usage! I hope none of these people manage their own IRA accounts; there’s no thought for the long term—only present demands.

[Kamen Rider]

That would be no better for a construction timetable that leaving the tunnel open in general.

[Wallyhorse]

In a perfect world, I would shut down both tunnels, but the big problem is 14th Street: 

If you eliminate service along there altogether, you run the risk of extra buses there causing gridlock that could have ripple effects elsewhere UNLESS you found a way to seriously cut down on auto traffic within a considerable distance of Union Square in all directions (i.e. Banning cars with fewer than four passengers between Houston and 42nd Streets and say 3rd to 10th Avenues except between 10:00 PM and 6:00 AM for instance).  That to me is the main reason pols might go as far as to take the to court to force them to keep the 1st-8th Avenue portion running for the length of the shutdown, citing the threat of gridlock the RPA report likely failed to take into account due to too many people coming into Manhattan refusing to give up their cars (in some cases unable to) and those who actually use the as the 14th Street Crosstown.

That was why I said I would do it by shipping enough extra sets of cars over (a total of say eight sets even if only three are used at any one time) and finding a way to do whatever maintenance can be done on the cars as possible.  

[CenSin]

In a perfect world, I would shut down both tunnels, but the big problem is 14th Street: 

 

If you eliminate service along there altogether, you run the risk of extra buses there causing gridlock that could have ripple effects elsewhere UNLESS you found a way to seriously cut down on auto traffic within a considerable distance of Union Square in all directions (i.e. Banning cars with fewer than four passengers between Houston and 42nd Streets and say 3rd to 10th Avenues except between 10:00 PM and 6:00 AM for instance).  That to me is the main reason pols might go as far as to take the to court to force them to keep the 1st-8th Avenue portion running for the length of the shutdown, citing the threat of gridlock the RPA report likely failed to take into account due to too many people coming into Manhattan refusing to give up their cars (in some cases unable to) and those who actually use the as the 14th Street Crosstown.

 

That was why I said I would do it by shipping enough extra sets of cars over (a total of say eight sets even if only three are used at any one time) and finding a way to do whatever maintenance can be done on the cars as possible.

Again:

 

 

Same problem as before, that being the threat of gridlock from additional buses unless you make it where only essential vehicles are permitted between Houston and 34th Streets and 1st to 7th Avenue South from Houston-12th and 10th Avenue from 12th-34th Streets except between 10:00 PM and 6:00 AM on weekdays and 9:00 PM and 7:30 AM on weekends and major holidays. It's likely the only way to prevent some people from driving into Manhattan who otherwise would never give up their cars, which would in my opinion be necessary to make this work.

 

Otherwise, I stick to what I said before: Send several four-car sets to Manhattan to operate between 1st and 8th Avenue as a shuttle with it set up where at regularly scheduled intervals whichever tunnel is NOT being used has non-electrified work trains come through it to swap out sets of cars, using one side of 1st avenue (and the tunnel between 1st and 3rd Avenue) and the lay-up tracks between 6th and 8th Avenue for storage. Not perfect, but that at least cuts down on the threat of gridlock, even if not on 14th Street itself.

This is exactly what I answered a dozen posts ago. And it still stands undefeated:

 

For those in Manhattan, the bus will be sufficient. You’re talking about a temporary service change which will be all the more shorter if all of the is shut down in Manhattan. For able-bodied people. walking is a pretty viable option. I do it often to move across 14 Street a few avenues rather than wasting time navigating the stairs and waiting for a train. For handicapped riders, only Union Square and 8 Avenue are wheelchair accessible anyway, so most of them will be taking the bus to begin with unless traversing 8 Avenue to/from Union Square is such a common itinerary.

 

Then there is the claim that people going crosstown alone will create a problem for 14 Street specifically. Let’s look at why the is even used in the first place:

•  

• They are already on 14 Street and are going to some other point on 14 Street.
• They are not on 14 Street, but travel up or down to 14 Street for the , which happens to get them across town faster than a bus.

In the first case, they can walk, run, or take the bus. In the second case, they can walk, run, or take the bus. But the end result is that people who take the bus will take the route closest to them, and I’m pretty sure the distribution of riders isn’t all concentrated on 14 Street. Those above 18 Street or below 12 Street will simply take the M23 ot M8 respectively, which distributes the load and avoids the jam you speak of. Both of those routes connect to the north-south subway lines crossing them.

 

The cost of keeping the in place versus the benefit is simply ridiculous when more reasonable alternatives are available!

 

 

[Wallyhorse]

Well:

This may come down to political will.  I still think those looking at this failed to take the threat of gridlock on 14th Street into account nor the ripple effects of such gridlock.  Were gridlock not such a strong threat, I would agree more strongly.  

[BreeddekalbL]

and if the hipsters kneecap this when the problems snowball like the R they gonna be sorry

[CenSin]

Well:

 

This may come down to political will.  I still think those looking at this failed to take the threat of gridlock on 14th Street into account nor the ripple effects of such gridlock.  Were gridlock not such a strong threat, I would agree more strongly.

Well, most of the forum members looked at it and reasoned that enough alternatives are available that gridlock will not be a problem; the threat will adequately be dispersed—spread out over a large area. The 6 Avenue Line itself will function as a substitute in some capacity since it joins the 8 Avenue Line from the far west and the Lexington Avenue Line from the far east. And the transfer points aren’t too far away from 14 Street itself. Folks further up or down already have options that are not under the threat of closure, so they can be counted out.

[onthe1train]

Could the pedestrian passageway between 7th and 8th Avs be reopened? It's a long walk, but could potentially take some riders off buses.