Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[T to Dyre Avenue]

QB has -1 capacity available to add , and providing riders with shorter trains for increased patronage is a bad idea. The Rockaway Beach line should be LIRR, or be part of a second IND trunk in Queens/Manhattan.

 

As for SI, I think that you are being too negative. First of all, the line will be underground until it merges with the SIR, so aside from construction, there should be little surface disturbance. Secondly, development will definitely follow the construction of the subway. All the SIers who are complaining will shut up when they see seven figure offers for their houses.

 

But yes, in general I agree. SI should not be priority #1 (nor 2 or 3 or 4).

If only all the complaining SIers would see it that way. But they won't.

 

As for Rockaway, I think it should be subway, not LIRR, because even if it has to share tracks with other lines, it will be a more frequent service during rush hours than LIRR could provide. But not the because it would require everyone headed for Manhattan to transfer to a train headed there, whereas an , or service would require some riders to transfer, but also have some riders who will stay on.

[RR503]

If only all the complaining SIers would see it that way. But they won't.

 

As for Rockaway, I think it should be subway, not LIRR, because even if it has to share tracks with other lines, it will be a more frequent service during rush hours than LIRR could provide. But not the because it would require everyone headed for Manhattan to transfer to a train headed there, whereas an , or service would require some riders to transfer, but also have some riders who will stay on.

LIRR would be a lot easier to orchestrate w/ the surplus ESA capacity, but yes, subway would mesh better. As suggested above, pie in the sky would be Queens bypass + this.

 

If this is done, where would the trains lay up? I can't imagine that you'd run them back to jamaica yard, but then what are you're other options....

[T to Dyre Avenue]

LIRR would be a lot easier to orchestrate w/ the surplus ESA capacity, but yes, subway would mesh better. As suggested above, pie in the sky would be Queens bypass + this.

 

If this is done, where would the trains lay up? I can't imagine that you'd run them back to jamaica yard, but then what are you're other options....

The high ticket prices and lower frequencies are two strikes against LIRR, though layovers would be made easier thanks to the West Side Yard. But if Rockaway service is provided by a running via SAS, procedures for layovers would probably be no different than what they would do for the .

[bobtehpanda]

LIRR would be a lot easier to orchestrate w/ the surplus ESA capacity, but yes, subway would mesh better. As suggested above, pie in the sky would be Queens bypass + this.

 

If this is done, where would the trains lay up? I can't imagine that you'd run them back to jamaica yard, but then what are you're other options....

 

The problem with LIRR is that railroads and subways cannot share trackage, but the Rockaway Beach Branch is in active use by the ( A), so you would need massive reconfiguration works to get them to run side by side, unless you terminate the Rockaway Beach LIRR at 101 St.

 

There is also the issue that the LIRR probably wouldn't want to operate it, given that they have already abandoned city trackage that could reasonably host some kind of rapid-transit like service but is wholly inappropriate for commuter rail style services. Even if it was returned to the LIRR I would fail to see the LIRR providing more service on it than say, the West Hempstead Branch, given that it would be political suicide.

[Union Tpke]

If any of you were to rebuild the Lexington Avenue Line how would you do it? Specifically, I am interested in what you would do with the City Hall Loop.

[pringle5095]

If any of you were to rebuild the Lexington Avenue Line how would you do it? Specifically, I am interested in what you would do with the City Hall Loop.

I would convert the city hall loop into a City Hall East River Tube into Brooklyn. This would connect trains into Brooklyn and since the line would run along Myrtle, Grand, and Lexington Avenues in Brooklyn would eventually terminate at Gates Av station

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Union Tpke]

I would convert the city hall loop into a City Hall East River Tube into Brooklyn. This would connect trains into Brooklyn and since the line would run along Myrtle, Grand, and Lexington Avenues in Brooklyn would eventually terminate at Gates Av station

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Why? Is that really needed?

[pringle5095]

Why? Is that really needed?

Part of that area is a "Subway Desert" meaning that you are more than 10 mins walk away from a Subway. This is especially true of Lexington between Grand and Marcus Garvey Blvds.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why? Is that really needed?

Part of that area is a "Subway Desert" meaning that you are more than 10 mins walk away from a Subway. This is especially true of Lexington between Grand and Marcus Garvey Blvds.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Union Tpke]

I know that it is far from the subway, but you can't serve every area. That area cannot be easily served by extensions of existing lines. Other areas, such as Eastern Queens and Southeastern Brooklyn should be served first.

[CenSin]

If any of you were to rebuild the Lexington Avenue Line how would you do it? Specifically, I am interested in what you would do with the City Hall Loop.

A given would be that the stations are straighter (especially important for 14 Street–Union Square). The local would be extended to Fulton Street. South of Fulton Street, the local tracks would be connected to the express tracks and they would ramp down to a relay area with storage tracks. Canal Street, Bleecker Street, and 33 Street would be express stops. 28 Street would be eliminated. 86 Street would not be an express stop, but a mere local stop. 51 Street remains as it is (53 Street is a stupid place to put a crosstown line anyway). At Bowling Green, the station would have a layout like South Ferry–Whitehall Street () for terminating trains.

[cl94]

If any of you were to rebuild the Lexington Avenue Line how would you do it? Specifically, I am interested in what you would do with the City Hall Loop.

 

Oh, boy. Here's what I'd do:

 

• Straighten the damn thing out. No stations that require gap fillers.
• Remove some of the sharp curves
• Widen the tunnels south of Grand Central to allow for B-division rolling stock (duh)
• City Hall loop gets decommissioned and becomes a museum (assuming we aren't starting without a line there). Local tracks get extended to South Ferry. Wall becomes a local stop, Fulton gets a layout to discourage local-express transfers similar to Penn and Atlantic.
• Bowling Green/South Ferry has 2 island platforms: 1 with a terminal layout connecting directly to the locals and the other with through tracks connecting to the express and Brooklyn. 7th Avenue gets a separate stub terminal. Possibly extend the local tracks under the East River to Smith/9th with a station in Red Hook and one on Governor's Island.
• Bleecker becomes express because of the IND transfer. Canal stays local as one can connect to those lines at Union Square and Chambers.
• Close Spring and 28th Streets

[pringle5095]

Oh, boy. Here's what I'd do:

 

• Straighten the damn thing out. No stations that require gap fillers.
• Remove some of the sharp curves
• Widen the tunnels south of Grand Central to allow for B-division rolling stock (duh)
• City Hall loop gets decommissioned and becomes a museum (assuming we aren't starting without a line there). Local tracks get extended to South Ferry. Wall becomes a local stop, Fulton gets a layout to discourage local-express transfers similar to Penn and Atlantic.
• Bowling Green/South Ferry has 2 island platforms: 1 with a terminal layout connecting directly to the locals and the other with through tracks connecting to the express and Brooklyn. 7th Avenue gets a separate stub terminal. Possibly extend the local tracks under the East River to Smith/9th with a station in Red Hook and one on Governor's Island.
• Bleecker becomes express because of the IND transfer. Canal stays local as one can connect to those lines at Union Square and Chambers.
• Close Spring and 28th Streets

As for services: Woodlawn-Av U via Jerome Av, Lexington Av, Eastern Pkwy, and Utica Av

 

Dyre Av-Emmons Av via Dyre Av, White Plains Rd, Jerome Av, Lexington Av, Eastern Pkwy, and Nostrand Av

 

Pelham Bay Park-South Ferry vía Pelham and Lexington Av

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brooklyn]

If any of you were to rebuild the Lexington Avenue Line how would you do it? Specifically, I am interested in what you would do with the City Hall Loop.

 

If I had a limited budget:

Extend the 6 to Fulton st.

 

I was looking at a track map and I noticed that there are two tail tracks leading from the SB local tracks. I would see about connecting one of those tracks to the NB local. I'd make a station there. It'd be like the E train at WTC.

 

The loop would stay as is, but would be used if there's congestion at Fulton st--the trains could turn back there.

 

Other than that, I really wouldn't change much. I think the line was designed pretty well.  As was mentioned, I might scrap 28th st...

 

I might also consider widening 86th Street (both levels) with middle tracks to allow both express and local trains to terminate--like Whitehall. This could be used to create a short 6 train from 86th st to Fulton st during the morning rush. During the morning, NB 6 trains empty out after 86th st..if some of those trains were able to turn back at 86th st and continue Downtown, that would be a better utilization of resources.

 

If I had an unlimited budget:

 

I would keep the upper level/lower level configuration for the entirety of Manhattan (to Bowling Green). There's a twist: the upper level would have three tracks--the middle track would be express , peak direction only, just like in the Bronx. The would make the same stops as the 4 and 5.

[Mtatransit]

If I had a limited budget:

Extend the 6 to Fulton st.

 

I was looking at a track map and I noticed that there are two tail tracks leading from the SB local tracks. I would see about connecting one of those tracks to the NB local. I'd make a station there. It'd be like the E train at WTC.

 

The loop would stay as is, but would be used if there's congestion at Fulton st--the trains could turn back there.

 

Other than that, I really wouldn't change much. I think the line was designed pretty well.  As was mentioned, I might scrap 28th st...

 

I might also consider widening 86th Street (both levels) with middle tracks to allow both express and local trains to terminate--like Whitehall. This could be used to create a short 6 train from 86th st to Fulton st during the morning rush. During the morning, NB 6 trains empty out after 86th st..if some of those trains were able to turn back at 86th st and continue Downtown, that would be a better utilization of resources.

 

If I had an unlimited budget:

 

I would keep the upper level/lower level configuration for the entirety of Manhattan (to Bowling Green). There's a twist: the upper level would have three tracks--the middle track would be express , peak direction only, just like in the Bronx. The would make the same stops as the 4 and 5.

Couldn't the just end at Bowling Green?

[danielhg121]

How come they don't run on the express track down lex ave in the morning? It prob has to do with capacity but i think it's not a bad idea to run down lex avenue express. Maybe the can run local instead during the mornings. But then again it doesn't come as frequently as th

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

[Brooklyn]

Couldn't the just end at Bowling Green?

 

Sure, but if I had a limited budget, just Fulton st....to me, that's the most important. Unlimited, Bowling Green, yes.

[pringle5095]

I want to know how you guys would build the 2 Av Line. I would build a 4 track line with local and express <T> service. Local trains would stop at all stops. Express trains stop at 125, 86, 42, 14, and all stops south of Chatham Sq. Local trains stop at all stops. would serve the Line 72 St and northward and new service would use a tube north of 57 St to the Astoria Line and serve the Line south of 57 St.

 

Stops

 

125 St

121 St

117 St

111 St

105 St

99 St

92 St

86 St

80 St

72 St

65 St

57 St (change for 6,E,M)

50 St

42 St (change for 0,4,5,6,7)

34 St

23 St

19 St

14 St (change for L)

8 St

1 St (change for F at LES- 2 Av)

Rivington St

Grand St (change for B,D)

Canal St

Chatham Sq

Pearl St

Fulton St

Hanover Sq

Whitehall St

(Trains would then proceed through their own tube to Brooklyn)

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[danielhg121]

When the whole second avenue line opens up with the and , would they get rid of the M15/+SBS+?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

[checkmatechamp13]

Part of that area is a "Subway Desert" meaning that you are more than 10 mins walk away from a Subway. This is especially true of Lexington between Grand and Marcus Garvey Blvds.

 

There's still buses available to fill the gap. Unfortunately, you can't run a subway line to every "transit desert"

 

A given would be that the stations are straighter (especially important for 14 Street–Union Square). The local would be extended to Fulton Street. South of Fulton Street, the local tracks would be connected to the express tracks and they would ramp down to a relay area with storage tracks. Canal Street, Bleecker Street, and 33 Street would be express stops. 28 Street would be eliminated. 86 Street would not be an express stop, but a mere local stop. 51 Street remains as it is (53 Street is a stupid place to put a crosstown line anyway). At Bowling Green, the station would have a layout like South Ferry–Whitehall Street ( ) for terminating trains.

 

So you'd basically be replicating the West Side IND with the 125th-59th express run.

 

I would keep the upper level/lower level configuration for the entirety of Manhattan (to Bowling Green). There's a twist: the upper level would have three tracks--the middle track would be express , peak direction only, just like in the Bronx. The would make the same stops as the 4 and 5.

 

That would be acceptable only with an unlimited budget, but with such an unlimited budget, you could probably buy teleportation devices to bring people straight to work.

 

How come they don't run on the express track down lex ave in the morning? It prob has to do with capacity but i think it's not a bad idea to run down lex avenue express. Maybe the can run local instead during the mornings. But then again it doesn't come as frequently as th

 

You'd have to cross it over to the express at 125th, and then cross the over to the local at 125th. You'd be recreating the same issues that used to exist at 96th on the West Side IRT. (There used to be locals that ran from 137th/Broadway & 145th/Lenox to South Ferry, and expresses that ran from Wakefield and Van Cortlandt Park to Brooklyn)

 

I want to know how you guys would build the 2 Av Line. I would build a 4 track line with local and express <T> service. Local trains would stop at all stops. Express trains stop at 125, 86, 42, 14, and all stops south of Chatham Sq. Local trains stop at all stops. would serve the Line 72 St and northward and new service would use a tube north of 57 St to the Astoria Line and serve the Line south of 57 St.

 

Stops

 

125 St

121 St

117 St

111 St

105 St

99 St

92 St

86 St

80 St

72 St

65 St

57 St (change for 6,E,M)

50 St

42 St (change for 0,4,5,6,7)

34 St

23 St

19 St

14 St (change for L)

8 St

1 St (change for F at LES- 2 Av)

Rivington St

Grand St (change for B,D)

Canal St

Chatham Sq

Pearl St

Fulton St

Hanover Sq

Whitehall St

(Trains would then proceed through their own tube to Brooklyn)

 

I think the spacing of the stations is too narrow, even if you plan on having an express along the line.

 

When the whole second avenue line opens up with the and , would they get rid of the M15/+SBS+?

 

With the spacing of the stations, the M15 +SBS+ is basically like the local that the SAS doesn't have. For example, even with Phase I, there's no stop at 79th Street. 

[Brooklyn]

I want to know how you guys would build the 2 Av Line.

 

 

I had a quick thought of actually running it on the Bowery (after Chatham) then to THIRD Avenue….it would then cross over to Second avenue after 60^th st (maybe E 66^th st?).

Third Avenue under 60^th st would give much better connections. So here’s how this version would look:

1. Fulton st Complex (A, C, J, 2.3.4.5)

2. Chatham Sq

3. Delancey st/Bowery

4. E. Houston (F via short passageway)

5. St.Marks Pl /3^rd Av

6. 14^th St

7. 23^rd

8. 34^th st

9. 42^nd st (passageway to Grand Central 4,5,6,7,S)

10. 53^rd st (E,M 6)

11. 59^th st(N,R,W, 4,5,6)

12. 72^nd st (2^nd Av)

13. 86^th st

14. 96^th st

15. 116^th st

16. 3^rd Av-149^th st (2,4,5)

[pringle5095]

I had a quick thought of actually running it on the Bowery (after Chatham) then to THIRD Avenue….it would then cross over to Second avenue after 60^th st (maybe E 66^th st?).

Third Avenue under 60^th st would give much better connections. So here’s how this version would look:

• Fulton st Complex (A, C, J, 2.3.4.5)

• Chatham Sq

• Delancey st/Bowery

• E. Houston (F via short passageway)

• St.Marks Pl /3^rd Av

• 14^th St

• 23^rd

• 34^th st

• 42^nd st (passageway to Grand Central 4,5,6,7,S)

• 53^rd st (E,M 6)

• 59^th st(N,R,W, 4,5,6)

• 72^nd st (2^nd Av)

• 86^th st

• 96^th st

• 116^th st

• 3^rd Av-149^th st (2,4,5)

Is this 3 Av NORTH of 60 St or SOUTH of 60 St?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Caelestor]

 

I had a quick thought of actually running it on the Bowery (after Chatham) then to THIRD Avenue….it would then cross over to Second avenue after 60^th st (maybe E 66^th st?).

Third Avenue under 60^th st would give much better connections. So here’s how this version would look:

1. Fulton st Complex (A, C, J, 2.3.4.5)

2. Chatham Sq

3. Delancey st/Bowery

4. E. Houston (F via short passageway)

5. St.Marks Pl /3^rd Av

6. 14^th St

7. 23^rd

8. 34^th st

9. 42^nd st (passageway to Grand Central 4,5,6,7,S)

10. 53^rd st (E,M 6)

11. 59^th st(N,R,W, 4,5,6)

12. 72^nd st (2^nd Av)

13. 86^th st

14. 96^th st

15. 116^th st

16. 3^rd Av-149^th st (2,4,5)

 

 

The whole point of running the line under Second Ave / Chrystie St is to connect to Grand St.

 

If SAS was a full-four track line, then it'd look something like the 8 Ave line. The local tracks would have connections to the 63rd St lines, while express trains run the entire length of the line. All the existing stops would be retained, and the express stops would be the transfer stations (excluding Houston St): 116 St, 72 St, 55 St, 42 St, 14 St, Grand St, Seaport, Hanover Sq. The local tracks turn west on 125 St as planned and run to Broadway, while the express tracks continue under 3rd/Park Aves and Pelham Parkway in the Bronx. Hanover Sq would be built like Chambers St - WTC to allow for a connection to Whitehall St, and the express tracks would link up with the Fulton St line in Brooklyn.

[Around the Horn]

The whole point of running the line under Second Ave / Chrystie St is to connect to Grand St.

 

If SAS was a full-four track line, then it'd look something like the 8 Ave line. The local tracks would have connections to the 63rd St lines, while express trains run the entire length of the line. All the existing stops would be retained, and the express stops would be the transfer stations (excluding Houston St): 116 St, 72 St, 55 St, 42 St, 14 St, Grand St, Seaport, Hanover Sq. The local tracks turn west on 125 St as planned and run to Broadway, while the express tracks continue under 3rd/Park Aves and Pelham Parkway in the Bronx. Hanover Sq would be built like Chambers St - WTC to allow for a connection to Whitehall St, and the express tracks would link up with the Fulton St line in Brooklyn.

Now this I can agree with!

[RailRunRob]

My breakdown of the SAS with a Bronx segment. 

 

 

• Co-op City                              Exit   Erskine Place         (MetroNorth)

(Pelham Yard)

• Pelham-Metro                      Exits Marconi St & Stillwell Ave
• Eastchester - Morris Park    Exits Williamsbridge & Eastchester Roads (Metro North)
• Parkchester                         Exit  East Tremont Ave                                (Metro North)
• 174th Street                         Exit 174th street
• Hunts Point Ave              Exit Hunts Point Ave                                   (Metro North)
• Port Morris                            Exit 138th Street

 

_________________   3rd Ave split

 

————————— Bronx/Manhattan

(129th Storage)

———————————— 125th split

• 116th Street                      Exits 116th and 118th Sts
• 106th Street                      Exits 106th and 108th Sts
• 96th   Street                      Exits 96th and 94th Sts
• 86th   Street                      Exits 86th and 83rd Sts
• 72nd  Street                      Exits 72nd & 69th Sts

—————————— 63rd spilt

• 55th Street                Exits 55th & 53rd Sts
• 42nd Street       Exits 44th,42nd and 41st Sts   (LIRR/MetroNorth)
• 34th Street                             Exits 34th and 32nd Sts
• 23rd Street                             Exits 26th and 23rd Sts
• 14th Street                        Exits 12th and 14th Sts
• Houston Street                  Exits 3rd,1st and Houston Sts
• Grand Street                  Exit  Grand Street
• Chatham Square                    Exits Mott and Doyers Sts
• Seaport                                  Exits Peck Slip and Fulton Street
• Old Slip Hanover                    Exits Coenites Slip, Old Slip and Wall Street

———————————- Manhattan /Brooklyn

Via State Street Bypass

 

• Hoyt- Schermerhorn Sts  

 

Brooklyn/Queens via Fulton

Edited January 4, 2017 by RailRunRob

[BronxBombers]

If any of you were to rebuild the Lexington Avenue Line how would you do it? Specifically, I am interested in what you would do with the City Hall Loop.

 

I would just make the curves not as sharp. The 14th St southbound platform would be shifted so that it aligns with the northbound platform, eliminating that gap filler. The Spring St curve would not be that sharp and I would make Bowling Green look like the Whitehall Street station.

 

The whole point of running the line under Second Ave / Chrystie St is to connect to Grand St.

 

If SAS was a full-four track line, then it'd look something like the 8 Ave line. The local tracks would have connections to the 63rd St lines, while express trains run the entire length of the line. All the existing stops would be retained, and the express stops would be the transfer stations (excluding Houston St): 116 St, 72 St, 55 St, 42 St, 14 St, Grand St, Seaport, Hanover Sq. The local tracks turn west on 125 St as planned and run to Broadway, while the express tracks continue under 3rd/Park Aves and Pelham Parkway in the Bronx. Hanover Sq would be built like Chambers St - WTC to allow for a connection to Whitehall St, and the express tracks would link up with the Fulton St line in Brooklyn.

 

My proposal would pretty much look like yours, except I would add stations at 79th, and St. Marks Place.

Edited January 4, 2017 by J95