Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Lawrence St]

What're we going to do with the slowly being demolished Rockaway Beach Branch? Half of the line is already in shambles, and current new development are taking over the land. If we don't do anything soon, we'll lose our chance to connect the Rockaways to Queens Boulevard.

[RR503]

I really think that any new crosstown like that should be across 86th, which would get you to about Astoria Blvd in Queens, and from there just straight to Flushing. So like making the a boomerang shape. But this would require untold billions of money.

 

The reason I want a new cross-river tunnel is because PATH is essentially at capacity. Even with the new signalling system they will be at their absolute limit. The nice thing about 57 St is that it's way denser of a job corridor, plus if you really wanted to you could bundle a line to Secaucus in with it as well (so that we can finally kill the to Secaucus)

Yup, that's why I said 76th ish

 

I don't think the should be extended. It's arguably over cap in BK, so I think that a 10th Ave line needs to work both to relieve Queens and Brooklyn. Using the does nothing for the latter, just continues the status quo, so I think that's not how it should be built.

 

Point taken abt PATH. Problem with that route though is that you miss all the dense employment and residential centres on the waterfront. That's​ where growth will be. If I was to do a 57th St PATH, I'd add a second set of tracks from JSQ to Hoboken junction, and then run north under Weehawken before turning east.

 

 

As for the RBB, if there's a will, there's a way. FH hates it, so until some community south of Forest Park shows a real need for it to happen, I can't see it coming.

Edited April 9, 2017 by RR503

[bobtehpanda]

Yup, that's why I said 76th ish

 

I don't think the should be extended. It's arguably over cap in BK, so I think that a 10th Ave line needs to work both to relieve Queens and Brooklyn. Using the does nothing for the latter, just continues the status quo, so I think that's not how it should be built.

 

Point taken abt PATH. Problem with that route though is that you miss all the dense employment and residential centres on the waterfront. That's​ where growth will be. If I was to do a 57th St PATH, I'd add a second set of tracks from JSQ to Hoboken junction, and then run north under Weehawken before turning east.

 

 

As for the RBB, if there's a will, there's a way. FH hates it, so until some community south of Forest Park shows a real need for it to happen, I can't see it coming.

 

True, but Bergenline Av right now supports frequent bus service and ultra-frequent jitney service.

 

I would assume a northward would not have many through-riders from Brooklyn to Queens, so it relieves Queens. Relieving the in Brooklyn I would leave for the Second Avenue Subway (via the extra tracks from 21st to 9th St)

What're we going to do with the slowly being demolished Rockaway Beach Branch? Half of the line is already in shambles, and current new development are taking over the land. If we don't do anything soon, we'll lose our chance to connect the Rockaways to Queens Boulevard.

 

This is false. RBB is legally City property and the City has not made any moves to sell it.

[Lawrence St]

True, but Bergenline Av right now supports frequent bus service and ultra-frequent jitney service.

 

I would assume a northward would not have many through-riders from Brooklyn to Queens, so it relieves Queens. Relieving the in Brooklyn I would leave for the Second Avenue Subway (via the extra tracks from 21st to 9th St)

 

 

This is false. RBB is legally City property and the City has not made any moves to sell it.

Nope, the area from the end of Forest Park to the old Bridge above the active LIRR line is completely torn out and redone except for the bridges above Union Turnpike. Not only that, Woodhaven Junction's southbound platform was torn down so the bus company could get more space for their buses.

[BreeddekalbL]

What're we going to do with the slowly being demolished Rockaway Beach Branch? Half of the line is already in shambles, and current new development are taking over the land. If we don't do anything soon, we'll lose our chance to connect the Rockaways to Queens Boulevard.

 

i agree we need to rebuild the RBB! The queensway people are using coded racism to get people to oppose it  and Karen Koslowitz is an ignorant fool and idiot for making bs reasons to oppose the train and attack the LIRR coming through the neighborhood. Also all of rockaway needs another service and it works with the governor's initiative for a 1 seat ride to jfk. what gives Koslowitz the right to say no what you have is good enough ( train and bus service).  

Edited April 9, 2017 by BreeddekalbL

[Wallyhorse]

i agree we need to rebuild the RBB! The queensway people are using coded racism to get people to oppose it  and Karen Koslowitz is an ignorant fool and idiot for making bs reasons to oppose the train and attack the LIRR coming through the neighborhood. Also all of rockaway needs another service and it works with the governor's initiative for a 1 seat ride to jfk. what gives Koslowitz the right to say no what you have is good enough ( train and bus service).  

It is that in my view.  There are many to me who are fearful of those "not their kind" coming in and infiltrating like what happened in some areas in the 1950's and '60s with what was known as "blockbusting" in those days (even though today that likely would never happen because many are much wiser now).  Many of those to me are those who still think of the subways like they were in the 1970's and '80s and in many cases likely were victims of crime then and/or are children of such victims of that time. 

 

Then there is the matter of those who have property that illegally encroaches the line.  

[MysteriousBtrain]

I think that to cause the least complaints on the RBB, it needs to be a subway between Forest park and Metropolitan Avenue via Woodhaven Boulevard and build a sightly higher El between Atlantic Av and 101st Av.

 

I rather keep the forest park area anyways because it became too developed for man kind and the forest park crescent building would get upset if they lost their parking.

 

Illegal or not, there will be fights on who has the right to take over the land thanks to NIMBYs.

Edited April 9, 2017 by ShadeJay

[RR503]

True, but Bergenline Av right now supports frequent bus service and ultra-frequent jitney service.

 

I would assume a northward would not have many through-riders from Brooklyn to Queens, so it relieves Queens. Relieving the in Brooklyn I would leave for the Second Avenue Subway (via the extra tracks from 21st to 9th St)

 

This is false. RBB is legally City property and the City has not made any moves to sell it.

  

 

Most Bergenline buses/jitneys are intra-NJ, making me question the size of the NY commutation market in that area.

 

I also think that brooklyn needs more than 30tph of relief from 2nd Ave, half of which will be going to Fulton. There are just so many unserved areas in the borough, not to mention southeast Queens.

 

It is that in my view.  There are many to me who are fearful of those "not their kind" coming in and infiltrating like what happened in some areas in the 1950's and '60s with what was known as "blockbusting" in those days (even though today that likely would never happen because many are much wiser now).  Many of those to me are those who still think of the subways like they were in the 1970's and '80s and in many cases likely were victims of crime then and/or are children of such victims of that time. 

Then there is the matter of those who have property that illegally encroaches the line.

 

+100 here. People are xenophobic by nature, and especially so if they live in relatively segregated communities like FH Gardens. Again, I find it depressing that such a small number of people can veto something that is for the greater good (I'm looking at you right now, BHA), but that's a failing in the planning process, not in RBB plans. I also think that politicians will try to sell Woodhaven SBS as 'adequate,' making any subway proposal more difficult to float. One way I could see this gathering more political momentum is promising to extend the subway to the JFK terminal area; that would get the monied elite on board.

[bobtehpanda]

Nope, the area from the end of Forest Park to the old Bridge above the active LIRR line is completely torn out and redone except for the bridges above Union Turnpike. Not only that, Woodhaven Junction's southbound platform was torn down so the bus company could get more space for their buses.

 

Torn down doesn't mean the deed was transferred. Either way, a parking lot would be very easy to subject to eminent domain, especially since it's only a 20ft width.

[Wallyhorse]

 +100 here. People are xenophobic by nature, and especially so if they live in relatively segregated communities like FH Gardens. Again, I find it depressing that such a small number of people can veto something that is for the greater good (I'm looking at you right now, BHA), but that's a failing in the planning process, not in RBB plans. I also think that politicians will try to sell Woodhaven SBS as 'adequate,' making any subway proposal more difficult to float. One way I could see this gathering more political momentum is promising to extend the subway to the JFK terminal area; that would get the monied elite on board.

If you can somehow do it, that would be great, especially if it were to somehow also provide direct access to JFK without the AirTrain and so forth (which could also be tied into my other idea of having a branch of the SAS run to LaGuardia and Willets Point via Randalls Island that also then runs to JFK and provides a subway link between the two airports).  

[Caelestor]

  Most Bergenline buses/jitneys are intra-NJ, making me question the size of the NY commutation market in that area.

 

I also think that brooklyn needs more than 30tph of relief from 2nd Ave, half of which will be going to Fulton. There are just so many unserved areas in the borough, not to mention southeast Queens.

 

Most travel is in-state, but given NYC's size, there should be sufficient demand for better cross-river options. I actually think the Gateway project should have a station in Bergenline. I would've sent the there but the route doesn't work out, though a future 50 St Crosstown line that crosses both the Hudson and East Rivers is another opportunity. Yes, it's expensive, but do we really want more buses going through the Lincoln Tunnel and an expensive rebuild of PABT?

 

As for Brooklyn, I prioritize a Nostrand Ave extension, an SAS connection with Fulton St, and then a new Utica Ave line. From an engineering and political standpoint, extensions of existing lines are significantly easier. Also, the line could use the extra capacity that an actual terminal station would provide.

[LTA1992]

I decided I wanted to build the subway from scratch. So, this new series of posts will show the expansion of such a system. Using Brand New Subway of course. In my system, all lines are of B Division spec and services are numbered. Letters will be saved for something else down the line. Service numbers will be introduced as they are. So there will not be a more logical grouping of numbers to trunk.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The original line runs from 145th Street to City Hall using Broadway the entire distance. Stations are located at:

 

145th, 137th, 125th, 116th, 110th, 103rd, 96th, 86th, 79th, 72nd, 66th, 59th, 50th, Times Square, Herald Square, 28th, 23rd, Union Square, 8th, Houston, Canal, Worth, City Hall.

 

The line is 4-tracks from 96th Street to City hall and at the moment, only has a single local service, the 1. North of 96th is a two track tunnel. Pretending this is built in the modern age, stations are 600 feet long with 10 car trains. Trains run at 10 minutes during the day, 6 minutes rush hours and 15 minutes during the early morning and evening. Currently, there is no overnight service. There is an underground storage yard north of 145th Street. Currently, the service needs about 100 cars to make service. Daily ridership for the system is 330,000 people.

 

Station finishes are a mix of IND style and the 34th Street-Hudson Yards style.

 

The current master plan calls for Manhattan only service with provisions for future need.

--------------------------

UPDATE #1

 

The first extensions bring nine new stations to the network and the inauguration of weekday Express service.

 

In the north, we have a two track extension east under 104th Street and the north under 7th Avenue to 145th Street. It would seem the City has marked that as a logical ending point for the systems northern extremities for now.

 

New stations: In the north are 145th Street, 135th Street, 125th Street, 116th Street, 110th Street, and 104th Street - Central Park West. In the south, we have Fulton Street, Wall Street, and Battery Park - State Street.

 

The Battery Park station is not located at the SI ferry terminal in order to facilitate a further extension to Brooklyn.

 

The 2 service runs over the extension and service is as follows:

 

1 - Broadway Local: 145th Street to City Hall. Weekdays and Rush Hours. Evenings and Weekends extended to Battery Park.

2 - Broadway Express: 145th Street - 7 Avenue to Battery Park. Weekdays and Rush Hours. Evenings and Weekends runs between 145th Street - 7 Avenue and 96th Street. 

 

2 service runs every 10 minutes weekdays. Every 6 during rush hours. 15 minutes weekends. Weekday service on the 2 requires 70 cars. Maintenance is done at the 145th Street yards. Storage is at the small CPW Yards just east of the CPW station. Additional trains are store on the Express tracks on Weekends.

 

Current weekday ridership is 490,000. Total cars in fleet: 170.

------------------------------------------------------------

UPDATE #2

 

The Lexington Avenue Line has been constructed. Served by the 3 service, the line is 4-tracked the entire length to prepare for future service expansion. 17 new stations are added bringing the total station count to 50.

 

New stations: 125th, 116th, 110th, 103rd, 96th, 86th, 79th, 72nd, 65th, 59th, 53rd, 47th, 42nd, 34th, 28th, 23rd, and 14th.

 

For now, the 3 is the sole service. Service levels are the same as the 1. Overnight service is instituted on all lines and all service runs every 20 minutes. An underground maintanence facility is located at 120th Street. It's a small yard.

 

Another 100 cars were purchased for this expansion bringing the fleet number to 270 cars.

 

Daily ridership is now 770,000.

Edited April 9, 2017 by LTA1992

[LTA1992]

 

The new 10th Avenue Line is built and served by the 4 service. IT runs between Avenue C - 14th Street and 72 Street - 10 Avenue. There are 14 stations on this line. bringing the total station count to 64.

 

Avenue C, 3 Avenue, Union Square, 16 Street - 10 Avenue, 23 Street, 28 Street, 34 Street, 42 Street, 50 Street, 57 Street, 66 Street, and 72 Street.

 

Service levels are the same as all other lines. 40 cars were purchased for this service, bringing that total number up to 310.

 

The MTA is now looking to expand NYCS service to Brooklyn and The Bronx.

[RR503]

Most travel is in-state, but given NYC's size, there should be sufficient demand for better cross-river options. I actually think the Gateway project should have a station in Bergenline. I would've sent the there but the route doesn't work out, though a future 50 St Crosstown line that crosses both the Hudson and East Rivers is another opportunity. Yes, it's expensive, but do we really want more buses going through the Lincoln Tunnel and an expensive rebuild of PABT?

 

As for Brooklyn, I prioritize a Nostrand Ave extension, an SAS connection with Fulton St, and then a new Utica Ave line. From an engineering and political standpoint, extensions of existing lines are significantly easier. Also, the line could use the extra capacity that an actual terminal station would provide.

 

With you as far as NYCS to NJ goes, but not a gateway stop. Can you imagine the train backups in those tunnels if ones are stopping? 

 

I also think that we should take our medicine and rebuild Rogers. I know its political suicide, but you gotta do what you gotta do. 

[Union Tpke]

 

The new 10th Avenue Line is built and served by the 4 service. IT runs between Avenue C - 14th Street and 72 Street - 10 Avenue. There are 14 stations on this line. bringing the total station count to 64.

 

Avenue C, 3 Avenue, Union Square, 16 Street - 10 Avenue, 23 Street, 28 Street, 34 Street, 42 Street, 50 Street, 57 Street, 66 Street, and 72 Street.

 

Service levels are the same as all other lines. 40 cars were purchased for this service, bringing that total number up to 310.

 

The MTA is now looking to expand NYCS service to Brooklyn and The Bronx.

 

Why would you build the 10th Avenue Line before an extension to Downtown Brooklyn?

[Around the Horn]

Why would you build the 10th Avenue Line before an extension to Downtown Brooklyn?

 

Well, he is building the subway from scratch, so building more trunks before extending outwards from the core makes sense. The Washington Metro was built the same way. Instead of finishing the entire Red Line first, they built the core Orange and Blue then core Yellow (with Green following once its outer line was built)

[Union Tpke]

Well, he is building the subway from scratch, so building more trunks before extending outwards from the core makes sense. The Washington Metro was built the same way. Instead of finishing the entire Red Line first, they built the core Orange and Blue then core Yellow (with Green following once its outer line was built

At that stage I would at least have one line go a tiny bit into downtown Brooklyn.

 

There is one thing I have wondered for some time. If you could, how would you build the IND Crosstown Line from scratch?

[Lawrence St]

At that stage I would at least have one line go a tiny bit into downtown Brooklyn.

 

There is one thing I have wondered for some time. If you could, how would you build the IND Crosstown Line from scratch?

I thought Crosstown was built to allow a connection from Queens Boulevard to Culver in the event of an emergency in Manhattan that would require a reroute. Nonetheless, Crosstown was the only line to be built that didn't run into Manhattan.

[RR503]

I thought Crosstown was built to allow a connection from Queens Boulevard to Culver in the event of an emergency in Manhattan that would require a reroute. Nonetheless, Crosstown was the only line to be built that didn't run into Manhattan.

 

Not really in event of in emergency. The IND (and the BMT with their crosstown line before it) anticipated a lot of Brooklyn-Queens commutation, so they thought that QBE trains could go to Manhattan, serving that market, while QBL trains could go to Brooklyn. While they probably anticipated the flows to be a bit uneven, they almost certainly did not forsee the fact that almost everyone would get of Brooklyn-bound QBLs at QP in favor of Manhattan-bound QBEs. This situation continued until the City built the 41st street cut, allowing Broadway trains onto QBL, partially rectifying the problem. When the 63rd st connector opened, the got cut back to Court Square, allowing all 4 QB services to go to Manhattan. 

 

And yes, I'm aware that was TMI 

[Around the Horn]

At that stage I would at least have one line go a tiny bit into downtown Brooklyn.

 

There is one thing I have wondered for some time. If you could, how would you build the IND Crosstown Line from scratch?

 

Same way it is now except with crossovers to the at Hoyt.

[RR503]

Same way it is now except with crossovers to the at Hoyt.

Why? What useful service does that provide?

[Wallyhorse]

Why? What useful service does that provide?

It would I believe actually allow the Crosstown line (assuming it were done correctly) to be able to go to Manhattan when needed and/or allow the to when needed go via 8th Avenue south of West 4th and re-join the Culver Line after Hoyt-Schermerhorn and/or when needed run with the to Hoyr-Schemerhorn and then after running between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Jay Street with the go back to its regular line.  

[bobtehpanda]

At that stage I would at least have one line go a tiny bit into downtown Brooklyn.

 

There is one thing I have wondered for some time. If you could, how would you build the IND Crosstown Line from scratch?

 

The is the result of the terrible merger of two independently good ideas.

 

The should have been continued to Brighton Beach, intersecting all crossing subway lines, and the old Myrtle Av El should've been replaced with a subway to the Montague St tunnel. In fact I believe the original crosstown line was more of a waterfont line - Brighton Beach - Franklin Av - QBP - Astoria.

Edited April 10, 2017 by bobtehpanda

[Around the Horn]

Why? What useful service does that provide?

 

Helps with potential reroutes and/or rerouting trains from Culver to 8 Av instead due to demand (similar to the orange change)

[RR503]

It would I believe actually allow the Crosstown line (assuming it were done correctly) to be able to go to Manhattan when needed and/or allow the to when needed go via 8th Avenue south of West 4th and re-join the Culver Line after Hoyt-Schermerhorn and/or when needed run with the to Hoyr-Schemerhorn and then after running between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Jay Street with the go back to its regular line.

Crosstown to 8th, yes (that's yet another pesky merge at that interlocking) but all this about rerouting trains makes no sense. N/B G trains and E/B A/C trains and vice versa go in the same direction, so a train going from 8th to HS to Culver would have to reverse once on crosstown. So basically, I don't see how this helps with reroutes.

Edited April 10, 2017 by RR503