Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Wallyhorse]

The is the result of the terrible merger of two independently good ideas.

 

The should have been continued to Brighton Beach, intersecting all crossing subway lines, and the old Myrtle Av El should've been replaced with a subway to the Montague St tunnel. In fact I believe the original crosstown line was more of a waterfont line - Brighton Beach - Franklin Av - QBP - Astoria.

This is very similar to what I would do with a rebuild of the Myrtle Avenue EL, with the line after Navy Street going into a tunnel and joining the Montague Street Line at either Jay-Metrotech or Court and then running to Astoria (most likely now as an extended ) with all platforms (including on the existing Myrtle EL) at 600 feet.

 

I agree on the , which is something I was addressing in the past with a new Myrtle-Brighton line that would be a new "Black " which would have some (relatively) minor rebuilding of the old Myrtle EL (mainly the upper level of Myrtle Avenue and Sumner Avenue) with it jutting to a new stop at Bedford-Nostrand to allow for transfers to the and then coming into and absorbing the current Franklin Avenue Shuttle that would be rebuilt to two tracks and 600' platforms along that portion and then running as a new Brighton Local to Coney Island (with the and flip-flopped along Brighton with the becoming a 24/7 Brighton Express to Brighton Beach since this "Black " would become a 24/7 Brighton Local).  

[RR503]

The is the result of the terrible merger of two independently good ideas.

 

The should have been continued to Brighton Beach, intersecting all crossing subway lines, and the old Myrtle Av El should've been replaced with a subway to the Montague St tunnel. In fact I believe the original crosstown line was more of a waterfont line - Brighton Beach - Franklin Av - QBP - Astoria.

  

 

Agree 100%. And yes, the BMT crosstown was to be a more waterfront line. See here: https://www.google.com/search?q=bmt+crosstown+line&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS616US616&hl=en-US&prmd=imsvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1keiX6pjTAhVLuxQKHU3nAwgQ_AUIBygB&biw=1024&bih=653#imgrc=z6zK1swK_HE0AM:

 

This is very similar to what I would do with a rebuild of the Myrtle Avenue EL, with the line after Navy Street going into a tunnel and joining the Montague Street Line at either Jay-Metrotech or Court and then running to Astoria (most likely now as an extended ) with all platforms (including on the existing Myrtle EL) at 600 feet.

 

I agree on the , which is something I was addressing in the past with a new Myrtle-Brighton line that would be a new "Black " which would have some (relatively) minor rebuilding of the old Myrtle EL (mainly the upper level of Myrtle Avenue and Sumner Avenue) with it jutting to a new stop at Bedford-Nostrand to allow for transfers to the and then coming into and absorbing the current Franklin Avenue Shuttle that would be rebuilt to two tracks and 600' platforms along that portion and then running as a new Brighton Local to Coney Island (with the and flip-flopped along Brighton with the becoming a 24/7 Brighton Express to Brighton Beach since this "Black " would become a 24/7 Brighton Local).

 

I would agree with you in terms of a Myrtle-montague connection if the el still existed, but now that it's gone, I really can't see that happening.

 

As far as the black V goes, however, you're repeating the mistake that the IND made all over again (see my post on the last page). Basically, you're routing local passengers away from where they want to go, creating massive transfer flows at express stops. I would be for this if the Q kept its place, and if the black V joined the G, giving it LIC access instead of routing it into the back of beyond on the Myrtle Ave line. One thing us railfans need to understand is that just because it once existed and we now miss it doesn't mean it is the best plan for the present. Things change.

[bobtehpanda]

This is very similar to what I would do with a rebuild of the Myrtle Avenue EL, with the line after Navy Street going into a tunnel and joining the Montague Street Line at either Jay-Metrotech or Court and then running to Astoria (most likely now as an extended ) with all platforms (including on the existing Myrtle EL) at 600 feet.

 

What's done is done. You can't turn back the clock on something like that.

[BreeddekalbL]

This is false. RBB is legally City property and the City has not made any moves to sell it.

but why is council park chairman mark Levine pretty much proclaiming that at the snap of a finger it can be transferred at no cost?

[Lawrence St]

I said it before and I'll say it again, tearing down the elevateds was a huge mistake.

 

What they should have done was first BUILD the alternative that they proposed of doing to replace the elevated BEFORE tearing it down in the first place.

[bobtehpanda]

but why is council park chairman mark Levine pretty much proclaiming that at the snap of a finger it can be transferred at no cost?

 

The city has transferred lands for a park at no cost before. That's how the high line started.

[RR503]

I said it before and I'll say it again, tearing down the elevateds was a huge mistake.

 

What they should have done was first BUILD the alternative that they proposed of doing to replace the elevated BEFORE tearing it down in the first place.

I highly doubt anyone here disagrees with you. I absolutely agree, for one. But, as is said, hindsight is 20/20. We have to live with the mistakes of our forefathers. Complaining doesn't fix them.

[BreeddekalbL]

The city has transferred lands for a park at no cost before. That's how the high line started.

 

ok i understand, i know these queensway clowns have the tpl backing them and they are conning politicians the same way nyclass conned deblasio into trying to ban horses.

[Lance]

I highly doubt anyone here disagrees with you. I absolutely agree, for one. But, as is said, hindsight is 20/20. We have to live with the mistakes of our forefathers. Complaining doesn't fix them.

Agreed.

 

They did get it right for 9th & 6th Avenues and Fulton St. It fell apart with the east side elevated lines as there was so much pressure to remove the lines from 2nd and 3rd Avenues. The then-remaining Brooklyn lines were a mixed bag. While one could make a case for preserving the lower portion of Myrtle Ave, the Lexington Ave elevated was doomed from the start. Unlike the Manhattan lines, real estate interests did not kill the Lex, but rather a simple lack of sustainable ridership.

[LTA1992]

Well, he is building the subway from scratch, so building more trunks before extending outwards from the core makes sense. The Washington Metro was built the same way. Instead of finishing the entire Red Line first, they built the core Orange and Blue then core Yellow (with Green following once its outer line was built)

Bingo. The next stages extend the Lex over the Manhattan Bridge and branching along 4th Avenue and Fulton Streets.

[Wallyhorse]

What's done is done. You can't turn back the clock on something like that.

I was simply pointing out that's how I would have done it (whether as EL or subway).  

 

As for Myrtle-Brighton, the idea would be to create a second crosstown that actually is within the spirit of the original IND (locals within the boroughs, expresses to Manhattan) that would also have connections to and from the Broadway-Brooklyn line from the Brighton end of the line that would mainly allow the and to be routed that way in an emergency (assuming all platforms by then on the Broadway-Brooklyn line and Essex Street are lengthened to 600 feet) but also allow for future routing where a line could run on the Broadway-Brooklyn Line to Myrtle and then the Myrtle-Brighton Line (again, absorbing what currently is the Franklin Avenue Shuttle) to Coney Island either from lower Manhattan OR midtown.

[Lance]

Have you ever considered why that intra-borough locals idea never really took off? Forcing the locals to run only within one borough causes undue strain on the express lines, as well as force unnecessary transfers. That's why the  was eventually eliminated in favor of expanded train service. It's also the reason why the #1 Brighton Local was extended to Queens Blvd with the 60th Street connection opened for service. People want those inter-borough connections and routes. They don't want to hop from the (AA) to the to the to go between local stops in Manhattan and Brooklyn, as was the original intention for the IND.

[Wallyhorse]

Have you ever considered why that intra-borough locals idea never really took off? Forcing the locals to run only within one borough causes undue strain on the express lines, as well as force unnecessary transfers. That's why the  was eventually eliminated in favor of expanded train service. It's also the reason why the #1 Brighton Local was extended to Queens Blvd with the 60th Street connection opened for service. People want those inter-borough connections and routes. They don't want to hop from the (AA) to the to the to go between local stops in Manhattan and Brooklyn, as was the original intention for the IND.

That's why my proposal also called for a connection to the Broadway-Brooklyn line that could be used for a line to EITHER lower or upper Manhattan (and conceivably, Queens or The Bronx).  

 

Especially if you build a connection to the SAS from the Willy B via Chrystie, that creates a whole bunch of new options, especially with such a Myrtle-Brighton line that can also have a branch run via Broadway-Brooklyn.  

Edited April 10, 2017 by Wallyhorse

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I was simply pointing out that's how I would have done it (whether as EL or subway).  

As for Myrtle-Brighton, the idea would be to create a second crosstown that actually is within the spirit of the original IND (locals within the boroughs, expresses to Manhattan) that would also have connections to and from the Broadway-Brooklyn line from the Brighton end of the line that would mainly allow the and to be routed that way in an emergency (assuming all platforms by then on the Broadway-Brooklyn line and Essex Street are lengthened to 600 feet) but also allow for future routing where a line could run on the Broadway-Brooklyn Line to Myrtle and then the Myrtle-Brighton Line (again, absorbing what currently is the Franklin Avenue Shuttle) to Coney Island either from lower Manhattan OR midtown.

  

Why would anyone coming from Midtown or Lower Manhattan want to travel to Coney Island on some complex, zigzagging route via the Williamsburg Bridge, the Broadway-Brooklyn Line, Myrtle Ave, the former Franklin Shuttle, then (finally!) the Brighton Local? It's far more direct and quicker to travel via the Manhattan Bridge or even via the Montague Tunnel to go from Manhattan to Coney Island.

That's why my proposal also called for a connection to the Broadway-Brooklyn line that could be used for a line to EITHER lower or upper Manhattan (and conceivably, Queens or The Bronx).  

Especially if you build a connection to the SAS from the Willy B via Chrystie, that creates a whole bunch of new options, especially with such a Myrtle-Brighton line that can also have a branch run via Broadway-Brooklyn.

 

So, yet another one of your proposals to reverse-branch the subway lines in Brooklyn, yes? You do know that / service - not to mention any other service this train would interline with - would have to be reduced, don't you?

[Wallyhorse]

  

Why would anyone coming from Midtown or Lower Manhattan want to travel to Coney Island on some complex, zigzagging route via the Williamsburg Bridge, the Broadway-Brooklyn Line, Myrtle Ave, the former Franklin Shuttle, then (finally!) the Brighton Local? It's far more direct and quicker to travel via the Manhattan Bridge or even via the Montague Tunnel to go from Manhattan to Coney Island.

So, yet another one of your proposals to reverse-branch the subway lines in Brooklyn, yes? You do know that / service - not to mention any other service this train would interline with - would have to be reduced, don't you?

The latter is simply an option.  The real purpose of this would be to have this be a line running as a second Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown between Metropolitan Avenue and Coney Island ("Black ") that would absorb the Franklin Avenue Shuttle as well and allow the to become a full-time Brighton Express (while the becomes the 19/7 Brighton Local to Coney Island), giving the Brighton line two locals between Franklin and Coney Island. 

[Around the Horn]

The latter is simply an option.  The real purpose of this would be to have this be a line running as a second Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown between Metropolitan Avenue and Coney Island ("Black ") that would absorb the Franklin Avenue Shuttle as well and allow the to become a full-time Brighton Express (while the becomes the 19/7 Brighton Local to Coney Island), giving the Brighton line two locals between Franklin and Coney Island. 

There is no need for a second Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown, plus taking away Broadway service from the local stations and giving them 6th Avenue is not going to go over well...

[P3F]

There is no need for a second Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown, plus taking away Broadway service from the local stations and giving them 6th Avenue is not going to go over well...

In all fairness, the is useless unless you're using the IND, or lines. It has no connection to the despite crossing them. A Myrtle-Franklin-Brighton local could work, but it might have to terminate at Prospect Park because it's possible that Coney Island cannot turn both the and a crosstown line.

 

However, this does not require switching the and as Brighton Express and Local. They can stay where they are.

 

Finally, I would like to mention that a cheaper option is making the useful by connecting Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center to the Lafayette Avenue and Fulton Street stations.

[Eric B]

I had thought a good idea could have been to connect the Myrtle el to the . The el already continues one block past Bway, and then it's four more to Marcy where the is, and for a long time (until recently) the lots needed to build the ramp and connection were empty. That would have replaced the direct downtown service lost when they did away with the el.

[Lawrence St]

Or, service could have been rerouted via South 4th Street, a connection would have been built to the rest of Crosstown south, while a three track line could've connected to Fulton at Utica.

[Around the Horn]

In all fairness, the is useless unless you're using the IND, or lines. It has no connection to the despite crossing them. A Myrtle-Franklin-Brighton local could work, but it might have to terminate at Prospect Park because it's possible that Coney Island cannot turn both the and a crosstown line.

 

However, this does not require switching the and as Brighton Express and Local. They can stay where they are.

 

Finally, I would like to mention that a cheaper option is making the useful by connecting Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center to the Lafayette Avenue and Fulton Street stations.

 

Yes. Better connections are a requirement and frankly the is so popular, it kinda deserves them IMO.

[N6 Limited]

Yes. Better connections are a requirement and frankly the is so popular, it kinda deserves them IMO.

The should be connected to the at Broadway 

[LTA1992]

The next stage of subway construction:

 

In the north, we have extensions of all lines.

 

The Broadway Line is extended from 145th Street to 207th to facilitate a transfer with a new Light Rail. The S2.

Stations: 155, 161, 168, 175, 181, 190, Dyckman, and 207 - 10 Avenue.

50 cars purchased for that extension.

 

The northern extension of the 7th Avenue Branch extends over two branches north of 145th.

The first is a seven station extension via University Avenue to 207th Street for connection to the S2.

Stations: 161 - Yankee Stadium, 167, 170, 174, Tremont Av, 181 - BCC, and Fordham Rd.

30 cars purchased for that extension.

 

The eastern extension runs via Westchester Avenue all the way to Pelham Bay Park. The line is 2 tracks until Third Avenue, where it becomes four to facilitate future express service. This new line inagruated a new 5 service that makes all stops along the line.

Stations: Grand Concourse - 149th, Third Avenue - 149th, Jackson Av, Prospect Ave, Kelly St, Hoe Av, Evergreen Av, Morrison Av, St. Lawrence Av, Parkchester, Castle Hill Av, Zerega Av, Westchester Sq, Mayflower Av, Mahan Av, and Pelham Bay Park.

130 cars purchased for the new 5 service.

 

The northern extension of the Lexington Avenue Line brings new services to Webster Avenue. It also inaugurates express services on the East Side with route 6 running it all the way to Gun Hill Road and WPR.

3 services run as far as Fordham Plaza. The line is 4-tracked as far as Fordham.

Stations: 138, 143, 149th (Transfer to 5), 156, 161 - 163, 167, 170, Claremont Park, Tremont, 180, 184, Fordham Plaza (3 Terminates. Transfer to S2), Bedford Pk. Blvd, 204, WPR - Gun Hill.

 

New Tram service along Fordham Road and Pelham Pkwy to Co-Op City. The MTA took the European way of doing things. To differentiate it from the other rail services, it's prefixed with S for Surface. The route in The Bronx is called S2. It has 11 stations along it's route and provides transfers to the 1, 2, 3, and 6 services of the subway system.

Stations: Broadway, 207 - 10th (Transfer to 1), University Av (Transfer to 2), Grand Concourse, Fordham Plaza (Transfer to 3 and 6), Crotona Av - Southern Blvd, WPR, Williamsbridge Road, Eastchester Rd - Pelham Pkwy, Allerton Av, Eastchester Rd, and Co-Op City.

5 157ft long Alstom Spirit type trams are purchased for this service.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brooklyn also saw it's first sets of lines come into existence.

The 14th Street Line was extended east to three stations into Williamsburg. The entire line is 2 tracks.

Stations: Bedford Avenue (Transfer to S1), Marcy Avenue, Graham Avenue.

20 cars purchased for the service.

 

The Lexington Avenue Line Saw an extension south over two branches. Splitting at just north of Canal Street,  one to South Ferry and another over the Manhattan Bridge to Brooklyn. The South Ferry Branch is two tracked and is served by the 3.

Stations: 8, Houston, Delancey, Chatham Sq, Fulton - Seaport, Old Slip, Battery Park (Transfer to 2 and 5).

 

The Broadway Line was extended into Brooklyn via Joralemon Street. For two stations (Borough Hall and Hoyt), the 2 and 5 share tracks. The line is 4-tracks here but all trains stop. After Hoyt, the center tracks dip down to branch off. The 2 continues onto a Fulton Street Line as far as Utica Avenue. The line is 4 tracks to provide for future express service.

Fulton Street stations: Flatbush Avenue, S Portland Av, Washington Av, Franklin Av, Nostrand Av, Kingston Av, and Utica Av.

 

Splitting from the 2, the 5 is joined at Flatbush - Fulton by the 6 from the Manhattan Bridge. The two run together under Fourth Avenue as far as 37 Street before branching. Lower Fourth has provisions for future express service. The 5 is local and the 6 is express.

Stations: Atlantic Av, Union St, 3 St, 9 St, 16 St, 25 St, 31 St, 37 St, 45 St, 51 St, and 59 St.

 

The 6 branches and runs along the New Utrecht Avenue Line. This line is an Elevated Line that is two tracks.

Stations: 7 Av, 9 Av, Ft. Hamilton Pkwy, 50 St, 55 St, and 60 St.

 

Lastly is a Tram service serving North Brooklyn. Utilizing an abandoned rail ROW between Prospect Park and Fulton Street, the goal is to provide North South connections where there currently is none. On street level, it runs via Franklin and Bedford A enues. It is called S1.

Stations: N 7 St (Transfer to 4), Grand St, Broadway, Division Av, Ross St, Flushing Av, Myrtle Av, Gates Av, Fulton St (Transfer to 2), Dean St, Park Pl, Eastern Pkwy, and Prospect Park.

[bobtehpanda]

Serious question: if you were building this from scratch, why would you not have the crosstown Bronx light rail connect with the easternmost subway line?

[Union Tpke]

Here is Andrew Lynch's latest plan for the SAS.

http://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2017/05/the-future-of-the-2nd-avenue-subway/#imageclose-2909

 

My comment is on that page.

[Lawrence St]

Some of yall write long responses lol