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Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

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(3) Weekend service from 148 St to 42 St-Times Sq could work and relay on that center track in between 42 St and 34 St. (2) could still operate full Express for continuing service.

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6 minutes ago, bwwnyc123 said:

The (4) has already been operating to New Lots Av for the past number of weeks and still doing it. And (3) has not been going to New Lots Av for the past number of weekends and still doing it.

You're talking about a permanent change over something temporary (which I have to stress because the (3) is intended to resume normal weekend service in time for September service). And no, the (3) hasn't operated at all for the past few weekends because of the work.

5 minutes ago, bwwnyc123 said:

(5) to from Dyre Av to E 180 St is good and then transfer for (2) for continuing service and Lex Av riders transfer 149 St-GC to (4) .

In other words, Dyre Avenue riders -- who have constantly been "blessed" with uncertainty over their weekend service in addition to it already being scheduled at 12-minute intervals -- should continue to get the worst possible service. Meanwhile people along Lexington Avenue and White Plains Road will be stuck with fewer trains. (Add in that (3) proposal and Brooklyn ends up being worse off, as well.)

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25 minutes ago, bwwnyc123 said:

(3) Weekend service from 148 St to 42 St-Times Sq could work and relay on that center track in between 42 St and 34 St. (2) could still operate full Express for continuing service.

Yes it could do that.

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11 minutes ago, Lex said:

You're talking about a permanent change over something temporary (which I have to stress because the (3) is intended to resume normal weekend service in time for September service). And no, the (3) hasn't operated at all for the past few weekends because of the work.

In other words, Dyre Avenue riders -- who have constantly been "blessed" with uncertainty over their weekend service in addition to it already being scheduled at 12-minute intervals -- should continue to get the worst possible service. Meanwhile people along Lexington Avenue and White Plains Road will be stuck with fewer trains. (Add in that (3) proposal and Brooklyn ends up being worse off, as well.)

They have been doing all of this with no problem so why not make it permanent.

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, bwwnyc123 said:

They have been doing all of this with no problem so why not make it permanent.

Self-quote aside, only the MTA can reap any sort of benefit from making those changes permanent, as it means less money needs to be spent. This comes at the cost of weekend ridership, which will only exacerbate the vicious cycle we're currently seeing (especially where the buses are concerned).

Edited by Lex

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2 hours ago, Lex said:

Self-quote aside, only the MTA can reap any sort of benefit from making those changes permanent, as it means less money needs to be spent. This comes at the cost of weekend ridership, which will only exacerbate the vicious cycle we're currently seeing (especially where the buses are concerned)

There are always good opportunity for change and never too late to make some adjustments.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/11/2019 at 1:27 PM, bwwnyc123 said:

normal weekday service between Metropolitan Av and Forest Hills 71 Av. Late Evenings and Weekend service to 96 St/2 Av would become permanent.

This goes way back to the first wacky proposal I posted here several years ago, but it seems to make more sense now with the 14th street tunnel closure....

How about a this for some relief service for the (L) ....

(V) 96th St - Canarsie (6 Av Express)

  • 96th Street (Q) 
  • 86th Street (Q)
  • 72nd Street (Q)
  • Lexington Avenue–63rd Street (F) (Q)
  • 57th Street (F) 
  • 47th–50th Streets–Rockefeller Center (B) (D) (F) (M) 
  • 42nd Street–Bryant Park (7) <7> (B) (D) (F) (M) 
  • 34th Street–Herald Square (B) (D) (F) (M) (N) (R) (Q) (W) 
  • West Fourth Street–Washington Square (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (M)
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street (4) (6) <6> (B) (D) (F) (M) 
  • Essex Street (F) (J) (M) (Z) 
  • Marcy Avenue (J) (M) (Z)
  • Myrtle Avenue–Broadway (J) (M) (Z)
  • Broadway Junction (A) (C) (J) (L) (Z)
  • Atlantic Avenue (L)
  • Sutter Avenue (L)
  • Livonia Avenue (L)
  • New Lots Avenue (L)
  • East 105th Street (L)
  • Canarsie–Rockaway Parkway (L)

The main complaint I recall was that there is a very tight turn (of concern) from the Canarsie Line to the Jamaica Line at Broadway Junction.

Edited by drekroid

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2 hours ago, drekroid said:

This goes way back to the first wacky proposal I posted here several years ago, but it seems to make more sense now with the 14th street tunnel closure....

How about a this for some relief service for the (L) ....

(V) 96th St - Canarsie (6 Av Express)

  • 96th Street (Q) 
  • 86th Street (Q)
  • 72nd Street (Q)
  • Lexington Avenue–63rd Street (F) (Q)
  • 57th Street (F) 
  • 47th–50th Streets–Rockefeller Center (B) (D) (F) (M) 
  • 42nd Street–Bryant Park (7) <7> (B) (D) (F) (M) 
  • 34th Street–Herald Square (B) (D) (F) (M) (N) (R) (Q) (W) 
  • West Fourth Street–Washington Square (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (M)
  • Broadway–Lafayette Street (4) (6) <6> (B) (D) (F) (M) 
  • Essex Street (F) (J) (M) (Z) 
  • Marcy Avenue (J) (M) (Z)
  • Myrtle Avenue–Broadway (J) (M) (Z)
  • Broadway Junction (A) (C) (J) (L) (Z)
  • Atlantic Avenue (L)
  • Sutter Avenue (L)
  • Livonia Avenue (L)
  • New Lots Avenue (L)
  • East 105th Street (L)
  • Canarsie–Rockaway Parkway (L)

The main complaint I recall was that there is a very tight turn (of concern) from the Canarsie Line to the Jamaica Line at Broadway Junction.

Setting aside everything else, where is the track capacity for this? WillyB runs 3tph below its limit, and 6th Avenue 5tph below. 

But even if track capacity existed, reverse branching Jamaica onto Canarsie really isn't a good idea. For one, Canarise CBTC isn't interoperable with any other portion of the system, so you're either left with buying more unicorn CBTC equipment (which becomes useless as soon as the tracks used by this proposed service get equipped with mainline spec CBTC) or running all trains on fixed blocks south of the Junction. There's also the issue of the Jamaica Line: every train you run to Canarsie from the (J) is a train that isn't heading out to Jamaica. Those stops are already criminally underserved, and hold massive potential for ridership growth and infill development if the subway service was there. You don't want to be further limiting that stretch. 

Finally, the notion that the (L) needs relief there is somewhat incorrect. The vast majority of (L) riders already use the transfer at Broadway Junction to access the (A)(C) -- there's relatively little through ridership onto the northern segment. And anyway, if we got the power and the cars, you could up (L) capacity from 20 to 26 without any other infrastructure investment (though potential exists for much, much more). 

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Posted (edited)

I suggested a (V) similar to @drekroid’s proposal back in 2016, when it was assumed that the (MTA) were going to go for a full-time shutdown. But only for the duration of the shutdown, because as a regular service it is completely impractical.

Though @RR503 did bring an interesting point about the “vast majority” of Canarsie (L) riders transferring to the (A)(C) at Broadway Junction. That was one reason I favored a Canarsie (V) via the Jamaica el. I changed my mind about the (V) proposal, because I saw pushback over how it would screw (L) passengers riding through Broadway Junction. But also, how it would screw (J) riders - although to be fair, the (MTA) were already planning to cut (J) service during the shutdown.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue

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Posted (edited)

Make a tram with a (14) bullet:

Riverside Park

96 St - Bway (1)(2)(3)

96 St - CPW (B)(C)

96 St - 5 Av

96 St - Lex Av (6)

96 St - 2 Av (Q)

Runs down York Av

91 St

86 St

79 St

72 St

66 St

62 St - 1 Av (NB only*) - build connection to (F)

57 St - 1 Av (SB only*)

Runs along Queensboro Bridge

11 St/Qns Plaza

11 St/46 Av

Vernon-Jackson (7)

 

*Trains have to get onto/off of the Queensboro Bridge, so the exit and entrance stops are at  different places.

Edited by New Flyer Xcelsior
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Posted (edited)

Get yer rotten tomatoes ready.... 🍅🍅🍅

 

Operational details for my proposed Queens Blvd + Jamaica lines

(E) Coney Island - Jamaica Ctr 

  • Serves the Culver Line, and operates locally in Queens and Brooklyn at all times
  • Local service operates between Coney Island (or Church Av at peak times) and Forest Hills when Diamond (E) is operating

Diamond (E) Coney Island - Jamaica Ctr (Weekday express service) 

  • Operates fully express in Queens
  • Serves Brooklyn at peak times only (short-turns at 2nd Av during the day), operating express between Bergen St and Church Av in both directions

(F) WTC Cortland - Jamaica-179th

  • Operates express in Queens between Queensbridge and Forest Hills at all times

<F> WTC Cortland - Jamaica-179th (Peak express service)

  • Operates fully express in Queens

(J) Broad St - Jamaica Ctr 

  • Local service operates between Chambers St and Broadway Junction when Diamond (J) is operating at peak times

Diamond (J) Broad St - Jamaica Ctr (Peak express service)

  • Operates express in Brooklyn in the peak direction between Marcy Av and Broadway Junction (replaces skip-stop service)

Blue (brownM) Middle Village - Jamaica-179th

  • Serves 8th Av local line (instead of 6th Av - (C) operates express in Manhattan) 
  • Weekday express service: Operates fully express on Queens Blvd, and terminates at Jamaica-179th (instead of local to Forest Hills)
  • Weekends: Operates between Queens Plaza and Middle Village only
  • Late night: Operates between West 4th St and Middle Village only 

(R) Bay Ridge - Forest Hills

  • Operates local in Queens and Manhattan, express in Brooklyn, and uses bridge
  • Late night shuttle: Operates in Brooklyn only

(Z) Discontinued

  • Replaced by Diamond (J) 

 

Queens Blvd Lines

Late Night (3 TPH LOCAL + 3 TPH EXPRESS):

  • (E) 3 TPH between Jamaica Ctr and Coney Island (local)
  • (F) 3 TPH between Jamaica-179th St and WTC Cortland

Reduced (12 TPH LOCAL + 6 TPH EXPRESS):

  • (E) 6 TPH between Jamaica Ctr and Coney Island (local)
  • (F) 6 TPH between Jamaica-179th St and WTC Cortland
  • (R) 6 TPH between Forest Hills and Bay Ridge

Daytime (16 TPH LOCAL + 20 TPH EXPRESS):

  • (E) 8 TPH between Forest Hills and Coney Island (local)
  • Diamond (E) 6 TPH between Jamaica Ctr and 2nd Av (express in Queens)
  • (F) 8 TPH between Jamaica-179th St and WTC Cortland
  • Blue (brownM) 6 TPH between Jamaica-179th and Middle Village (express in Queens)
  • (R) 8 TPH between Forest Hills and Bay Ridge

Peak for Queens Blvd (21 TPH LOCAL + 30 TPH EXPRESS):

  • (E) 9 TPH between Forest Hills and Church Av (local)
  • Diamond (E) 6 TPH between Jamaica Ctr and Coney Island (express in Queens and Brooklyn)
  • Diamond (E) 3 TPH between Jamaica Ctr and Church Av (peak trains - express in Queens and Brooklyn)
  • (F) 9 TPH between Jamaica-179th St and WTC Cortland
  • <F> 6 TPH between Jamaica-179th and WTC Cortland (peak trains - fully express)
  • Blue (brownM) 6 TPH between Jamaica-179th and Middle Village (express in Queens)
  • (R) 8 TPH between Forest Hills and Bay Ridge
  • (R) 4 TPH between Forest Hills and 59 St (peak trains)

Peak for Culver line (9 TPH LOCAL + 6 TPH EXPRESS):

  • (E) 9 TPH between Church Av and Forest Hills (local)
  • Diamond (E) 6 TPH between Coney Island and Jamaica Ctr (express in Queens and Brooklyn)

 

Jamaica Lines

Late Night (6 TPH):

  • Blue (brownM) 3 TPH between West 4th St and Middle Village
  • (J) 3 TPH between Jamaica Ctr and Broad St

Reduced (10 TPH):

  • Blue (brownM) 5 TPH between Queens Plaza and Middle Village
  • (J) 5 TPH between Jamaica Ctr and Broad St

Daytime (12 TPH):

  • Blue (brownM) 6 TPH between Middle Village and Jamaica-179th (express in Queens)
  • (J) 6 TPH between Jamaica Ctr and Broad St

Peak for Jamaica Line (15 TPH LOCAL + 9 TPH EXPRESS):

  • Blue (brownM) 9 TPH between Middle Village and Jamaica-179th (express in Queens)
  • Diamond (J) 9 TPH between Jamaica Ctr and Broad St (express in Brooklyn)
  • (J) 6 TPH between Broadway Junction and Chambers St (local)

Peak for Nassau Line (15 TPH - reverse-peak direction)

  • (J) 6 TPH between Broad St and Jamaica Ctr
  • (J) 3 TPH between Broad St and Broadway Junction
  • (J) 6 TPH between Chambers and Broadway Junction
Edited by drekroid

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21 minutes ago, bwwnyc123 said:

Which do you rather on Weekends?

(M) to 145 St or to 96 St/2 Av.

 

I'd rather have it to 145th- (C) is crap on the weekends while the (Q) is ok.

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15 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

I'd rather have it to 145th- (C) is crap on the weekends while the (Q) is ok.

I totally agree with that.

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Operational details for my proposed (B) / <B> CPW Local + Brighton lines

  • Weekday express service:  <B> operates express in Brooklyn
  • (B) operates local in Brooklyn at all times (replaces (Q)), and short-turns at Brighton Beach when <B> is operating
  • (B) + <B> operate express on 6th Av (except late night), local on CPW, and terminate at 168th St
  • Late night: (B) extended to Inwood, and operates local on 6th Av 
  • Proposed (C) operates express in Manhattan to Inwood, (D) discontinued and replaced by (A) to Norwood + (Q) to Coney Island via West End line

Late Night (3 TPH):

  • (B) 3 TPH between Inwood and Coney Island (operates local on 6th Av) 

Reduced (6 TPH):

  • (B) 6 TPH between 168 St and Coney Island

Daytime (12 TPH: 6 TPH LOCAL + 6 TPH EXPRESS):

  • (B) 6 TPH between 168 St and Brighton Beach 
  • <B> 6 TPH between 168 St and Coney Island (operates express in Brooklyn)

Peak for Brighton Line (20 TPH: 10 TPH LOCAL + 10 TPH EXPRESS):

  • (B) 6 TPH between 168 St and Brighton Beach
  • (B) 4 TPH between 168 St and Coney Island (peak local trains)
  • <B> 10 TPH between 168 St and Coney Island (operates express in Brooklyn)

Peak for CPW Local Line (12 TPH):

  • (B) 6 TPH between 168 St and Brighton Beach
  • <B> 6 TPH between 168 St and Coney Island (operates express in Brooklyn)

 

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Minor update to my proposed 7th Av express lines based on the feedback of "too much off-peak service to Brooklyn".....  

Proposed Evening + Weekend Service (12-18 TPH):

  • (2) 6 TPH between 241st St and Flatbush
  • (2) 6 TPH between Dyre Av and Times Square ((5) service discontinued) 
  • (3) 6 TPH between 148th St and Utica Av (proposed (4) operates to New Lots at all times)

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14 hours ago, bwwnyc123 said:

Which do you rather on Weekends?

(M) to 145 St or to 96 St/2 Av.

 

If there are no GO's, the (M) to 145/8th as it gives CPW local riders a 6th avenue option on weekends.  Otherwise, 96th/2nd as it gives SAS riders additional weekend service.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, subwaycommuter1983 said:

I'm glad the MTA made the decision of increasing local service along CPW, instead of limiting local service. The reason I am saying this is because there has been weekend where the C has been running express (one way), while cutting service on 1 train past 96th street. There shouldn't be any track work done along CPW, while track work is being done along 7th avenue and viceversa.

Also,I think, since ENY still has a surplus of 8car r179's and r160's, that the MTA should consider a possible permanent weekend M train extension past Delancey Street. What do you guys think??

From the R179 Discussion thread...

Perhaps run the (M) weekends to 71st Avenue in addition to weekdays, while running the (W) as the weekdays-only supplemental QB local line (the opposite of the current (M)(R) setup). The (R) would then run from Bay Ridge to Astoria, replacing the (N)(W) there. The (N) would then be rerouted to 2nd Avenue alongside the (Q), eliminating the switch from express to local at 34th.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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On 8/19/2019 at 11:05 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

From the R179 Discussion thread...

Perhaps run the (M) weekends to 71st Avenue in addition to weekdays, while running the (W) as the weekdays-only supplemental QB local line (the opposite of the current (M)(R) setup). The (R) would then run from Bay Ridge to Astoria, replacing the (N)(W) there. The (N) would then be rerouted to 2nd Avenue alongside the (Q), eliminating the switch from express to local at 34th.

Here's what I would do in that case (as noted in the split (R) thread):

A new "Brown (K)" would run 95th-Bay Ridge to Essex with scheduled, in-service. yard runs the end and begin at Broadway Junction that are noted as such in timetables.  This service runs 24/7 and also replaces the late-night (R) entirely as for those who need Whitehall from Bay Ridge, they can make a same platform transfer to the (N) anywhere between 59th and Court.

(N) now runs full-time with the (Q) to 96th Street,  Late nights does run local in Manhattan but does skip 49th Street at all times.

(R) remains as it is currently except it doesn't run at all late nights (see above).

(W) is beefed up and runs 24/7 between Whitehall and Ditmars-Astoria with scheduled, in-service yard runs that end and begin at Bay Parkway on the  line.  At times when more trains are needed, some (W) trains are extended to 9th Avenue on the (D) where they terminate and turn around, running local on 4th Avenue. 

You could also have the (W) run at all times from Bay Parkway, 9th Avenue or somewhere on the Sea Beach Line if a new terminal can be developed while having a new "Yellow (V)" train be the Whitehall-Astoria local to avoid any potential confusion.   

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(V) Fort Lee, NJ - Coney Island

Fort Lee

175 St - GWB Bus Terminal (A)

168 St (A)(C)

145 St (A)(B)(C)(D)

125 St (A)(B)(C)(D)

59 St (A)(B)(C)(D)(1)

7 Av (B)(D)(E)

47-50 Sts (B)(D)(F)(M)

42 St (B)(D)(F)(M)(7)

34 St (B)(D)(F)(M)(N)(Q)(R)(W)

W 4 St (A)(B)(C)(D)(E)(F)(M)

Bway-Laffayette St (B)(D)(F)(M)(6)

2 Av (F)

Delancey-Essex (F)(J)(M)(Z)

York St (F)

Jay St (F)(A)(C)(R)

Bergen St (F)(G)

7 Av (F)(G)

Church Av (F)(G)

18 Av (F)

Kings Hwy (F)

Neptune Av (F)

NY Aquarium (F)(Q)

Coney Island (D)(F)(N)(Q)

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Here's what I would do in that case (as noted in the split (R) thread):

...


(R) remains as it is currently except it doesn't run at all late nights (see above).

...

You could also have the (W) run at all times from Bay Parkway, 9th Avenue or somewhere on the Sea Beach Line if a new terminal can be developed while having a new "Yellow (V)" train be the Whitehall-Astoria local to avoid any potential confusion.   

I’m sorry, but I’m not in favor of any proposal that calls for the (R) to stay the way it is currently, even if it means eliminating the late night shuttle. 

The full time Broadway-4th Avenue local service should go to Astoria. I’d call that service the (R), but I’m flexible with it being given a different letter. There should be a Whitehall-Forest Hills service, like the old (EE) / <N>. We can use (W) for that service, or it could be a “Yellow V” (which would be a nice nod to the former QBL local service that ran there from 2002-10) or another letter.

@New Flyer Xcelsior Even if you could actually get the two states and the Port Authority on board with a Fort Lee (V) subway extension over the GW, you’d still have to cut service on the (A) and (D) to make it fit. And you’d have to have the (V) merge with the (F)(M) either at 34th or West 4th, which would be sure to cause delays.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue

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9 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I’m sorry, but I’m not in favor of any proposal that calls for the (R) to stay the way it is currently, even if it means eliminating the late night shuttle. 

The full time Broadway-4th Avenue local service should go to Astoria. I’d call that service the (R), but I’m flexible with it being given a different letter. There should be a Whitehall-Forest Hills service, like the old (EE) / <N>. We can use (W) for that service, or it could be a “Yellow V” (which would be a nice nod to the former QBL local service that ran there from 2002-10) or another letter.

@New Flyer Xcelsior Even if you could actually get the two states and the Port Authority on board with a Fort Lee (V) subway extension over the GW, you’d still have to cut service on the (A) and (D) to make it fit. And you’d have to have the (V) merge with the (F)(M) either at 34th or West 4th, which would be sure to cause delays.

Two words: Yard Access.

That's why I keep the (R) as is (other than eliminating the late-night shuttle that my "Brown (K)" train that would be 24/7 would pick up since it would stop everywhere the (R) does except Whitehall, and those specifically looking for Whitehall can transfer to the (N) anywhere between 59th and Court).  Doing that keeps the (R) in Jamaica Yard while the new (K) would be based in East New York yard (hence the in-service runs to/from Broadway Junction).  The (W) and "Yellow (V)" would handle Astoria and could be based out of 38th Street or Coney Island, again with in-service yard runs as needed. 

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2 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Two words: Yard Access.

That's why I keep the (R) as is (other than eliminating the late-night shuttle that my "Brown (K)" train that would be 24/7 would pick up since it would stop everywhere the (R) does except Whitehall, and those specifically looking for Whitehall can transfer to the (N) anywhere between 59th and Court).  Doing that keeps the (R) in Jamaica Yard while the new (K) would be based in East New York yard (hence the in-service runs to/from Broadway Junction).  The (W) and "Yellow (V)" would handle Astoria and could be based out of 38th Street or Coney Island, again with in-service yard runs as needed.

I will have to disagree. I fail to see how an Astoria (R) cannot do exactly the same yard moves you described for the (W) and Yellow V. And with just one service, not two. There is really no need for both a V and a W out of Astoria and no need for a second full time service duplicating the (D) or (N) in Brooklyn. 

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The issue of yard access is overblown- the only reason why the (RR) stopped going to Astoria was because they didn’t want trains being layed up in relays and getting bombed out. 

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On 8/15/2019 at 2:02 AM, bwwnyc123 said:

They have been doing all of this with no problem so why not make it permanent.

You obviously don’t ride the Brooklyn IRT enough to realize cutting the (3) on weekends is not an excellent idea. Cutting service just leads to decreased ridership.

You honestly think that’s a great thing?

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