news No. 7 subway train riders demand better service from MTA at Queens rally

[bobtehpanda]

1. I'm saying that a trip on Metro-North on the Harlem Line within in the Bronx (i.e. Fordham to say Woodlawn is $3.00).  It's called an intermediate fare.  Why doesn't the LIRR have a similar fare structure for travel within Queens? I don't get that at all.  A trip from Woodside to Jamaica is $7.25 off-peak, and $10.00 during peak periods.  I realize that they are different railroads, but that's a drastic difference in price and it shouldn't be that way.  Quite frankly, the LIRR is overpriced in general, be it within Queens or traveling from Manhattan to Long Island, especially for the quality of the ride.   

 

The Long Island Railroad has always had a historical tendency to not be very co-operative; even the mighty Pennsy or Penn Central could not really impose their will over the LIRR. Coupled with the fact that Long Islanders, in general, will act like the city is a ghetto ripped apart by gang wars, that explains the reluctance to try and make things easier for city riders. It doesn't help that the neighborhoods the train lines run through in Queens tend to be majority-minority, either, given how racist the Island can get.

[Fresh Pond]

With CBTC there would be less standard signals anyways.... correct? besides maybe switches and crossovers. I don't know if this is the case in NYC but if this is in fact the case you wouldn't really see any new signals besides key locations. The work would be mainly in the vehicle location trackers and RF layouts along the line.

You can tell an old Flushing wayside signal apart from a new one easily.

 

The older ones have a longer flare (or lack of a better term for it) over the respective signal aspect, and the entire assembly is more rounded. The photo below shows an example...

 

 

Another variant with the aspect being slightly larger than the housing is seen here. The older one can be seen on the left facing the other direction...

 

 

The newer ones look like the normal signals used elsewhere around the system. A photo of a new one is seen below...

 

 

...to add, the older ones have air-powered stop arms. All of the new signals will be electric-powered

[Gotham Bus Co.]

The newer ones look like the normal signals used elsewhere around the system. A photo of a new one is seen below...

 

 

So the "new" signals are simply repurposed from elsewhere, just like most of the "new" cars. That's why they keep failing at the same rate as the "old" signals.

[RailRunRob]

So the "new" signals are simply repurposed from elsewhere, just like most of the "new" cars. That's why they keep failing at the same rate as the "old" signals.

New signals for the old block signal system.. shouldn't we wait for the new system (ATO) to come on line to judge and measure failure and success?

[ttcsubwayfan]

So the "new" signals are simply repurposed from elsewhere, just like most of the "new" cars. That's why they keep failing at the same rate as the "old" signals.

 

And how would they repurpose them from elsewhere? By randomly ripping out signals from elsewhere in the system instead? Cause I'm sure that wouldn't f*ck things up.

 

These signals are an auxilliary, in the event of a total CBTC failure. There's no reason they should fail at a rate that is different than anywhere else on the system, and once CBTC comes on line, they're just going to be back ups. Seriously, do some research on what is actually happening on the .

[RailRunRob]

And how would they repurpose them from elsewhere? By randomly ripping out signals from elsewhere in the system instead? Cause I'm sure that wouldn't f*ck things up.

 

These signals are an auxilliary, in the event of a total CBTC failure. There's no reason they should fail at a rate that is different than anywhere else on the system, and once CBTC comes on line, they're just going to be back ups. Seriously, do some research on what is actually happening on the .

Bingo! 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Not saying that at all just saying it's not the Eisenhower era anymore. The skills and infrastructure that America thrived on for decades well it's not valid anymore. I may not necessarily need an assembly line worker as I did in 1965 maybe I need somebody that specializes in Lithium ion battery technology or Solar.Im not saying that we don't have a smart workforce.. But what the good is being smart if you can't apply knowledge or adapt. We need a versatile workforce and people willing to change. When you have all this it's my birthright as an American and sense of entitlement that's slowly destroying the country.. We have the brainpower here why wouldn't we invest more heavily in education to get them trained in the things that are in demand for the 21st-century start building infrastructure to keep jobs and create jobs? A lot of it isn't skills necessarily or the ability to do something it's having the infrastructure in place. Everywhere I travel every country I see education as a top priority follow by healthcare. Places like India and China are pumping out far more engineers then we are here! What happens in 40 or 50 years when we're being out innovated? I could fly to China tomorrow and find all the infrastructure I need to mass produce a product in 30 days from soup to nuts. The same job might take me over year here in the US. We got to start getting back into the job of innovating.You don't have to tell me how greatest this country is. Joe Sutter and Boeing created the 747 in less then two years. The Manhattan Project the greatest minds came together to change the world literally the US did that. So when you tell me you wonder if im American? I ask you what are you doing to keep this Country Great? I don't want to hear what your great-grandfather did.. what your grandfather did what are you doing? And that's the question we have to ask this generation a lot of spoiled brats in this country. Get out and change something innovate something create something stop talking. This further let's me know that you don't understand the difference between democracy and capitalism what about GDP? What do we even make or export anymore over $300 billion dollars in oil imports last year alone. All the markets interconnected Technology is moving to the cloud Companies do business in multiple countries it's a global economy the world's gotten alot smaller in the last 60 years. We supposed to do keep it all the same because it benefited a certain group of people never going to happen. Get get out and travel the world little bit more. If we want to continue to call this country great  were going to have to continue working at it....do your part  VG8!!

Listen, this topic goes wayyyy deeper than where you're diving.  The Chinese are not as skilled as you're making it out to be, and the Americans aren't as complacent as you're claiming either.  Yes, education needs to be overhauled here, but it isn't as bleak as you're making it out to be.  In cases where you have Americans that are capable of doing the job, they're being overlooked for cheaper workers.  It really is about $$, as much as you pretend otherwise.

 

 

The Long Island Railroad has always had a historical tendency to not be very co-operative; even the mighty Pennsy or Penn Central could not really impose their will over the LIRR. Coupled with the fact that Long Islanders, in general, will act like the city is a ghetto ripped apart by gang wars, that explains the reluctance to try and make things easier for city riders. It doesn't help that the neighborhoods the train lines run through in Queens tend to be majority-minority, either, given how racist the Island can get.

lol... Those are some pretty hefty accusations.

[RailRunRob]

Listen, this topic goes wayyyy deeper than where you're diving.  The Chinese are not as skilled as you're making it out to be, and the Americans aren't as complacent as you're claiming either.  Yes, education needs to be overhauled here, but it isn't as bleak as you're making it out to be.  In cases where you have Americans that are capable of doing the job, they're being overlooked for cheaper workers.  It really is about $$, as much as you pretend otherwise.

That I understand.. I can submit to the fact that it's further reaching then both of us understand. I can only speak from my experience and my travels. I've worked for a few companies and currently employ talent it's been a bit harder to find talent locally for me at least but of course if I can find the talent homegrown and it's within my means I'm going to do it ..Yes there are Americans that could possibly do the job. But then there's a lot of red tape that the government invokes for starting a business and pulling talent. Yes the Chinese may not make the best quality stuff. But Americans as a culture consume so much. There's almost no way we can produce as much as we consume that's just basic math. There's over 300,000,000 people in this country so when I speak im not speaking about everyone. But I have gone many places in the middle of this country we're people do really have a sense of entitlement is that the majority ? no I definitely wouldn't say that. But when I contrast that to many places I've gone in Europe and Asia there's a clear difference in peoples understanding about how government works understanding a bit more about politics and the world at large. And in my experience I haven't seen the same levels here in the states a lot of people base their opinion off of emotion and they're direct perspective. The only way to bring jobs back and get our infrastructure back inline in my opinion just getting everyone in the game. Everyone that might've been disenfranchised 50 years ago female, minorities everybody counts every brain can produce something great. That's why sometimes when I hear you talk about hood rats this and that. I know for fact this person to be trained to do everything you and I do and more. The education and opportunities just need to be there.. The funny thing here in America  we push this rhetoric that if you work hard and get good grades you'll succeed and be successful.. Then when you get out there and you realize always been about capitalism and money.. America used to be a place where one could thrive and live a great life it's quickly turning into survival. All in my opinion.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That I understand.. I can submit to the fact that it's further reaching then both of us understand. I can only speak from my experience and my travels. I've worked for a few companies and currently employ talent it's been a bit harder to find talent locally for me at least but of course if I can find the talent homegrown and it's within my means I'm going to do it ..Yes there are Americans that could possibly do the job. But then there's a lot of red tape that the government invokes for starting a business and pulling talent. Yes the Chinese may not make the best quality stuff. But Americans as a culture consume so much. There's almost no way we can produce as much as we consume that's just basic math. There's over 300,000,000 people in this country so when I speak im not speaking about everyone. But I have gone many places in the middle of this country we're people do really have a sense of entitlement is that the majority ? no I definitely wouldn't say that. But when I contrast that to many places I've gone in Europe and Asia there's a clear difference in peoples understanding about how government works understanding a bit more about politics and the world at large. And in my experience I haven't seen the same levels here in the states a lot of people base their opinion off of emotion and they're direct perspective. The only way to bring jobs back and get our infrastructure back inline in my opinion just getting everyone in the game. Everyone that might've been disenfranchised 50 years ago female, minorities everybody counts every brain can produce something great. That's why sometimes when I hear you talk about hood rats this and that. I know for fact this person to be trained to do everything you and I do and more. The education and opportunities just need to be there.. The funny thing here in America  we push this rhetoric that if you work hard and get good grades you'll succeed and be successful.. Then when you get out there and you realize always been about capitalism and money.. America used to be a place where one could thrive and live a great life it's quickly turning into survival. All in my opinion.

Yes, it's partially about about capitalism and money, but additionally, why would Americans want to work in fields that are being heavily outsourced? Not only that, but there's also the mentality that certain jobs are too dirty.  This attitude isn't just prevalent in the US, but in the West and other developed countries as well.  When I worked in construction, I worked in the office and went on site for meetings from time-to-time, but even then I could remember the stigma of getting your hands dirty.  It used to be looked upon as a hard day's work, but that's part of the problem.  There has to be retraining in terms of thought process in general.

[Javier]

I swear, NY'ers complain about everything. We've given you extended service to Hudson Yards, we've sacrificed the NTT's from the to the for you to give you a better ride, we're giving you a new signaling system to run more trains, isn't that enough? Sheesh.

[RailRunRob]

Yes, it's partially about about capitalism and money, but additionally, why would Americans want to work in fields that are being heavily outsourced? Not only that, but there's also the mentality that certain jobs are too dirty.  This attitude isn't just prevalent in the US, but in the West and other developed countries as well.  When I worked in construction, I worked in the office and went on site for meetings from time-to-time, but even then I could remember the stigma of getting your hands dirty.  It used to be looked upon as a hard day's work, but that's part of the problem.  There has to be retraining in terms of thought process in general.

In addition to them not wanting to work in fields that are heavily outsourced.. I would take it further and say in a lot cases it's not possible to work in some fields that are outsourced or gone oversea's just no way! American's can't compete it's a race to the bottom. In countries like India and China the population is double and triple we have in here. I really do feel a lot of people look to America's past we have to remember that presidents like Roosevelt got the government involved in getting people to work. Especially right after the depression and a lot of that carried over into the Truman and Eisenhower era's. America was expanding there was so much building of infrastructure. Interstates, automotive oil and coal, civic jobs. That's not necessarily the case anymore. People took pride in these jobs people took pride in there Country so getting your hands dirty and putting a hard days work in this period meant something. My point is that there's so much more to do people can still get their hands dirty so speak they just have to do in other areas. Strengthening and maintenance of our infrastructure, renewable energies, Technology, robotics,.. Biotech the list go's on so when people feel like certain jobs are too dirty define that. At one point a blacksmith was the most important person in town slowly but surely technology with its precision and ability to mass-produce rendered the job obsolete. You have to adapt it's a changing world.. Once again I feel like a lowest common denominator here is healthcare and education. If people are healthy motivated and have a skill set great things are going to happen. When people are hellbent on survival instead of thriving we're going to have a country of people that are focused on personal self-preservation and holding onto their way of life. Feel like we're starting see that. And that's the sure beginnings of an economy in decline. While Americans themselves may be very patriotic but we have to remember that capitalism isn't!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

In addition to them not wanting to work in fields that are heavily outsourced.. I would take it further and say in a lot cases it's not possible to work in some fields that are outsourced or gone oversea's just no way! American's can't compete it's a race to the bottom. In countries like India and China the population is double and triple we have in here. I really do feel a lot of people look to America's past we have to remember that presidents like Roosevelt got the government involved in getting people to work. Especially right after the depression and a lot of that carried over into the Truman and Eisenhower era's. America was expanding there was so much building of infrastructure. Interstates, automotive oil and coal, civic jobs. That's not necessarily the case anymore. People took pride in these jobs people took pride in there Country so getting your hands dirty and putting a hard days work in this period meant something. My point is that there's so much more to do people can still get their hands dirty so speak they just have to do in other areas. Strengthening and maintenance of our infrastructure, renewable energies, Technology, robotics,.. Biotech the list go's on so when people feel like certain jobs are too dirty define that. At one point a blacksmith was the most important person in town slowly but surely technology with its precision and ability to mass-produce rendered the job obsolete. You have to adapt it's a changing world.. Once again I feel like a lowest common denominator here is healthcare and education. If people are healthy motivated and have a skill set great things are going to happen. When people are hellbent on survival instead of thriving we're going to have a country of people that are focused on personal self-preservation and holding onto their way of life. Feel like we're starting see that. And that's the sure beginnings of an economy in decline. While Americans themselves may be very patriotic but we have to remember that capitalism isn't!

On the same token, you'd better believe that Chinese are the biggest protectionists out there.  They protect their interests and don't allow them to be bought by outsiders.  There needs to be retraining here big time not just in the fields, but in perception of certain jobs overall, and we need our manufacturing base back.  We still manufacture a hell of a lot here, and It's slowly coming back, and there is plenty of innovation going on, just not in all areas.  Lots of eco-friendly US companies starting up here that have an interest in manufacturing right here in the US.  Besides, it has to come back because transportation costs should continue to increase as time goes on, making the whole outsourcing concept counterproductive, which some US companies have already realized, hence why they've come back here.  My point in all of this is that we can't grow if we don't reward these kinds of companies.  I think the whole bidding process has to change from the (MTA)'s perspective and since they are using taxpayer dollars, every effort must be made to use local labor.  I've attended some of the meetings, and have heard first hand from representatives of various small businesses, how they've grown because of the giving them business.  I think in the long run, if some things are changed, these sorts of projects could become much more efficient in terms of meeting turnaround times and being cost effective.

[Fresh Pond]

So the "new" signals are simply repurposed from elsewhere, just like most of the "new" cars. That's why they keep failing at the same rate as the "old" signals.

Not repurposed, brand new. Just made to look like signals elsewhere for uniformity purposes

[Gotham Bus Co.]

These signals are an auxilliary, in the event of a total CBTC failure. There's no reason they should fail at a rate that is different than anywhere else on the system, and once CBTC comes on line, they're just going to be back ups. Seriously, do some research on what is actually happening on the .

 

My research is called being a daily passenger (between Main Street and Manhattan) and experiencing the "new" old signals constantly failing.

[ttcsubwayfan]

I don't know how reliable the signals are, being that I am not a rider of the , but they're clearly not re-purposed old signals. I have no idea where they would get signals from in the system to use on Flushing, that idea is pure nonsense. Nowhere else in the system is getting signal upgrades from where they could harvest old signals from. So evidently, your research is wrong. Try again.

[Javier]

Im a rider of the as well, but only a FEW signals act up, and they are the old signals, primarily between 33 St and 69 St and 111 St. Please research your ideas again and make sure they make sens,

[Around the Horn]

For the last time, the signals are not repurposed or old. The as of right now is a mix of sections of old signals yet to be replaced and the new signals in sections where work has already been completed.

 

Why do they fail?, you ask.

 

Because the new signals are not designed to interface with the old ones. However, rightfully so, line riders expect service during this changeover. So the line operates with two types of signal not meant to interface with each other. Problems abound. But not because the new signals are old or faulty.

 

The presence and use of the old signals is what causes signal problems:

 

Im a rider of the as well, but only a FEW signals act up, and they are the old signals, primarily between 33 St and 69 St and 111 St. Please research your ideas again and make sure they make sense.

 

 

 

Food for thought:

If we try to run an R32 and R160 in a revenue train and it doesn't work, is it the R160's fault?

[Calvin]

I noticed today on the , the train was stuck for about 10 minutes due to door malfunction as the platform was packed. Meanwhile, there were trains that was close to each other on that one track

[RailRunRob]

On the same token, you'd better believe that Chinese are the biggest protectionists out there.  They protect their interests and don't allow them to be bought by outsiders.  There needs to be retraining here big time not just in the fields, but in perception of certain jobs overall, and we need our manufacturing base back.  We still manufacture a hell of a lot here, and It's slowly coming back, and there is plenty of innovation going on, just not in all areas.  Lots of eco-friendly US companies starting up here that have an interest in manufacturing right here in the US.  Besides, it has to come back because transportation costs should continue to increase as time goes on, making the whole outsourcing concept counterproductive, which some US companies have already realized, hence why they've come back here.  My point in all of this is that we can't grow if we don't reward these kinds of companies.  I think the whole bidding process has to change from the (MTA)'s perspective and since they are using taxpayer dollars, every effort must be made to use local labor.  I've attended some of the meetings, and have heard first hand from representatives of various small businesses, how they've grown because of the giving them business.  I think in the long run, if some things are changed, these sorts of projects could become much more efficient in terms of meeting turnaround times and being cost effective.

You make valid points. I can agree on most of them... I believe in the egalitarianism view. Small business are really the backbone here I can say that full heartly. It's funny brains have become radically more valuable in the marketplace over the last 50-60 years and I can't say im fully against that if you have the smarts and can do something should you slow down because others around you can't comprehend or pull it off? But what I can say is there making up the upper class and elite. Top elite Universities pick the best of the best socialize them and they marry off the wealth it is concentrated there now.They control the Monopoly board.. But I do understand the frustration of the working class here. Egalitarianism, liberty and individualism the grounds on which this country was built. But in comes free-market economics which I believe in as well more people benefit overall.The point being there's so many factors at play and honestly I don't know the answers don't think anyone has the magic bullet.  I think what we need to understand is just because we're able to have this discussion there alot of people out there that are in the dark. On a lot of things that frankly help them demand and rally for change in there communities. How many people actually understand fair market practices or even the three branches of government? How do you make fair and accurate decisions and votes without information?. So I'd say were a little smarter than the average bear people in New York in general. So I stand behind more investment in education that is the key!! Full circle.. Mitsubishi a Japanese company would be nice if they had some jobs here in USA.For the reasons you mentioned they probably will shipping and energy used to move product. But if  MTA needs something done and they couldn't find in this country im not fully against them going were needed  to get the job done. Im not saying your view is wrong though. I can respect it. But also as the tax payers we do benefit with better service in transit  Made in the U.S or not.. agreed it would be better to keep the money home but hey sometimes it can't be helped.

[IAlam]

Turning at Willets Point is actually possible from the Flushing-bound local track. I already see them use it to send trains back to the yard leads approaching the end of PM rush. The same track weaves under the express track and connects to the Manhattan-bound local track. As for why I don’t think they should use it… Turning there screws over the riders who transfer at 74 Street–Broadway who are travelling to/from Flushing. For those who need to transfer at that station (as opposed to the Manhattan transfer points), it turns a 1-transfer ride into a 2-transfer ride. Quite a lot of people commute to/from Flushing from/to the local stations to work as well!

Considering how many people actually get on the local train at Flushing, its worth sacrificing for the sake Express riders which greatly outnumber them. It would also allow for even headways which is the main problem I notice with the Express trains

[bobtehpanda]

 

lol... Those are some pretty hefty accusations.

 

 

After using the LIRR for 7 years to go to and from school, and going to university in Long Island for 3 years, I can definitely say that there is at least a sizeable minority of Long Islanders with views that are a bit... outdated, to say the least.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

After using the LIRR for 7 years to go to and from school, and going to university in Long Island for 3 years, I can definitely say that there is at least a sizeable minority of Long Islanders with views that are a bit... outdated, to say the least.

Well someone's views is one thing, but to accuse the LIRR of that seems a bit much.  

[B35 via Church]

After using the LIRR for 7 years to go to and from school, and going to university in Long Island for 3 years, I can definitely say that there is at least a sizeable minority of Long Islanders with views that are a bit... outdated, to say the least.

Yes, outdated....

 

But what I find funny about this, is that these are the same long islanders that enjoy the hell out of the amenities (namely, the night-life) "the city" offers though (Nevermind the fact that a lot of them work in "the city").... Also, those are the same long islanders that are torn between "sticking it out" (meaning, staying in LI) & getting the hell out of there, since it's becoming more - urban (which really grinds their gears, putting it mildly)....

 

And these PO'd Islanders fans I gotta deal with on the main line, smh.... You STILL have some on the trains that are bitching about that sorry franchise having moved from Uniondale (which is no Taj Mahal in & of itself) to Brooklyn..

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yes, outdated....

 

But what I find funny about this, is that these are the same long islanders that enjoy the hell out of the amenities (namely, the night-life) "the city" offers though (Nevermind the fact that a lot of them work in "the city").... Also, those are the same long islanders that are torn between "sticking it out" (meaning, staying in LI) & getting the hell out of there, since it's becoming more - urban (which really grinds their gears, putting it mildly)....

 

And these PO'd Islanders fans I gotta deal with on the main line, smh.... You STILL have some on the trains that are bitching about that sorry franchise having moved from Uniondale (which is no Taj Mahal in & of itself) to Brooklyn..

Long Island is changing similar to the way Staten Island is changing... And not for the better... Lower quality of life, more congestion, etc.  That's why I got the hell out of Staten Island.  I predict that Long Island will only get worse... The reasonably priced areas will decline the most, as City folks are pushed out of ghettos here and forced onto Long Island.

 

The old Nassau Coliseum was a dump, but Barclay's isn't much better.  It's a pain just watching the Islanders play on TV with the sight lines in that arena, let alone in person.  Can't blame them... Going to the city is one thing, but even I can't stand going over to that area of Brooklyn, and I'm from Brooklyn.  

 

Anywho, if the options are so limited for riders, then they need to continue to be more vocal about improving the line overall and making the address their concerns.

[bobtehpanda]

Well someone's views is one thing, but to accuse the LIRR of that seems a bit much.  

 

They themselves might not actually believe it, but at the end of the day the LIRR seeks to please its customers. While it may not be actively creating discriminatory policy to create the kind of environment that Islanders want, at the end of the day the fare structure and organization of the LIRR has the exact same effect.

 

Also, those are the same long islanders that are torn between "sticking it out" (meaning, staying in LI) & getting the hell out of there, since it's becoming more - urban (which really grinds their gears, putting it mildly)....

 

At this point, anyone with half a mind is trying to up sticks and go. The property taxes are outrageous, services aren't that great, and job opportunities are not appealing relative to other areas in the metro area or other metro areas. The skilled, young and mobile have already been fleeing for at least a generation at this point.

Anywho, if the options are so limited for riders, then they need to continue to be more vocal about improving the line overall and making the address their concerns.

 

The issue is that short of a new train line there isn't much the MTA can do. The is the only line in the area and it's full. Express bus services are already mostly handled by the Chinatown vans out of Elmhurst, Rego Park, and Flushing (which are faster than anything the MTA could be operating due to a willingness to cut corners when it comes to the law); actual express buses have never been able to compete either on time or on price, since the express is quick and the Chinatown van is only $3. The only thing the MTA could do is try and promote the PW as a relief line for the and cut fares on it, but the folks in Port Washington and Manhasset probably wouldn't like that very much.