My J/Z Evaluation....

[Juelz4309]

I was bored at work and was wikipedia subway lines and the J/Z Line cuaght my eye

Ive been on the J maybe 4-5 times in my life (longest elevated in the system btw)....and that was well over 15 yrs ago when I was just riding around exploring the system. It didnt occur to me till now that the entire Line is a JOKE!..Here me out 

 

1.why does the middle track bumper block at marcy ave??? I remember the wiily b rehab back in the 90s and you would think they wouldve tied that middle track into the tracks going into the the bridge to create True Express service. Now Im sure Marcy ave gets high ridership but so does ALL local stops during rush hour when this service would be in effect...Not to mention you would eliminate the current merging just east.

 

2.Whats The point of the "Z" train??????? Its ONLY 6 additional trains that last barely over an hour during the Rush....In comparison the rush hr Neried Ave 5s Operate 12 trains...enough to make a noticeable diffrence..

 

3. Why wasnt the middle track ever built between Cypress hills and 121 St????? I read on it and it just simply wasnt built (minus the layup @111 st).....but space was left for it??????

 

My remedies as follows...

 

1.Eliminate the bumper block and tie into the tracks...Marcy ave now becomes local during rush hours..

 

2. Build the Express track between Cypress And 121 Street.

 

3. Make The "Z" a Full time Express In the peak direction like the The "6" and "7" Express that currently run

    To Manhattan 6A-1PM And From 2pm-9pm...Or For arguments sake at least expand to 12 trains over the

     rush hour period  

 

Stops as Follows... 1.Jamaica Center

                               2.Sutphin/JFK 

                               3.Crescent St..... Then all stops to Bway Jct( Since an exp track cant be built) 

                               4.Broadway Junction 

                               5.Myrtle Ave 

                               6.Essex/Delancey St...Then all stops to Broad.

 

Considering that Southeast Queens dosent have subway service as was planned This is the LEAST mta couldve done especially since the "E" is already overcrowded AND it would give riders a fast way downtown.

I actually read that the skip stop service and the introduction of the "Z" Was specifically designed to take riders from the already congested Queens blvd line!...Go Figure..MY New "Z" Would make only 9 stops to downtown!

 

In conclusion the "J" Would become Fully local and Folks in South Bubblefuk Queens (LOL I have people out here so no offense) would get a decent ride FAST ride into the city!.Dont know why these werent built into place back then considering how progressive and ambitious NYC was back in the heyday...Unlike now..where projects take 5-10 yrs to get done SMH.....Thoughts welcomed as always...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                               

 

[Eric B]

The middle track did connect to the bridge, until 1962, IIRC. Not sure why they changed it.

[onthe1train]

I'll speculate on some of the points here:

 

1. It's my understanding that customers headed from Manhattan complained, at some point in the past, that express trains didn't stop at Marcy Av and had to wait for a local train. As such, trains were all made to stop at Marcy Av.

 

2. The Z skip-stop works well to increase capacity during rush hour. Up until 1988 (when the Z was introduced) the J local probably experienced some severe congestion. However, the real problem is not the number of trains running, which is adequate, but the ancient structures (some dating back to 1885). The tight curves are not forgiving.

 

3. Cypress Hills was the original terminal of the el from its construction in 1893 until 1917. Ridership probably never warranted the third track to be installed. Even now, many of those stations between Sutphin and Broadway Junction see little use compared to the rest of the system. It is only very recently that stations outside of Parsons and Sutphin have seen an increase in ridership from the North Brooklyn boom.

 

As for your express Z idea, I think that could be a very good, but with the curve between Cypress Hills and Crescent I could see train congestion still being an issue. It could definitely take some pressure off the E if done correctly.

[trainfan22]

I used to be a daily rider on the J/Z lines.... I rode from Myrtle to Sutphin and the skip stop service was faster than the making all the stops... 

 

My ONLY beef with the skip stop service is it should run a bit longer....

 

 

I agree with you about the middle track setup at Marcy though, but with Williamsburg gentrifying and such, no way they would pull Rush Hour J/Z service from that station though.

[Around the Horn]

Yeah I'd rather expand the service span for the to at least 6-9AM and 3-7PM...

[Juelz4309]

Valid points so far...And to answer the problem at marcy avenue....GET OVER IT lol...its ONE STOP to Manhattan...Think about the poor souls traveling from Laurelton-Springfield grdns-South Jamaica and etc..And with the J running fully local they will have additional service with J n M trains servicing it.

 

And just what is the issue with this infamous curve??? I know the trains gotta slo down but what diffrence is this from say...

 

Tremont 2/5 

Whitlock 6

Qnsboro plza 7 

149/GC 5 Curve????

 

with that being said this could be a blessing in disguise...the time it takes to slow down southbound will allow for smooth merging of trains and northbound theres no delay as the trains would simply switch to the express track...slow into cypress...then take off!!

[Around the Horn]

Valid points so far...And to answer the problem at marcy avenue....GET OVER IT lol...its ONE STOP to Manhattan...Think about the poor souls traveling from Laurelton-Springfield grdns-South Jamaica and etc..And with the J running fully local they will have additional service with J n M trains servicing it.

 

And just what is the issue with this infamous curve??? I know the trains gotta slo down but what diffrence is this from say...

 

Tremont 2/5 

Whitlock 6

Qnsboro plza 7 

149/GC 5 Curve????

 

with that being said this could be a blessing in disguise...the time it takes to slow down southbound will allow for smooth merging of trains and northbound theres no delay as the trains would simply switch to the express track...slow into cypress...then take off!!

It's one of the busiest stops and it will only get busier. The cannot handle Marcy alone.

[onthe1train]

And just what is the issue with this infamous curve??? I know the trains gotta slo down but what diffrence is this from say...

 

Tremont 2/5 

Whitlock 6

Qnsboro plza 7 

149/GC 5 Curve????

 

For starters, those are all IRT stations. And they're all very short. The curve on the Jamaica el is about a half mile long, plus the disadvantage 60' cars have over navigating such curves compared to 51' cars.

[P3F]

The MTA could suspend service in a certain area for several months and rebuild the curves that are too tight...

[onthe1train]

The MTA could suspend service in a certain area for several months and rebuild the curves that are too tight...

In the literal sense, yes, they could, but it would disrupt commutes for months and they would have to raze buildings to do it.

[Eric B]

It's one of the busiest stops and it will only get busier. The cannot handle Marcy alone.

What I would rather do, is reconfigure the whole Manhattan bound side, so thatthe track is on the outside, and an island platform would go where the track is, and the middle track would then be connected tot he bridge. So then, it would be exactly like Essex (though rotated 180°), and the express and local could come in at the same time, and then decide which one goes first.

[Lance]

I was bored at work and was wikipedia subway lines and the J/Z Line cuaght my eye

Ive been on the J maybe 4-5 times in my life (longest elevated in the system btw)....and that was well over 15 yrs ago when I was just riding around exploring the system. It didnt occur to me till now that the entire Line is a JOKE!..Here me out 

 

1.why does the middle track bumper block at marcy ave??? I remember the wiily b rehab back in the 90s and you would think they wouldve tied that middle track into the tracks going into the the bridge to create True Express service. Now Im sure Marcy ave gets high ridership but so does ALL local stops during rush hour when this service would be in effect...Not to mention you would eliminate the current merging just east.

 

2.Whats The point of the "Z" train??????? Its ONLY 6 additional trains that last barely over an hour during the Rush....In comparison the rush hr Neried Ave 5s Operate 12 trains...enough to make a noticeable diffrence..

 

3. Why wasnt the middle track ever built between Cypress hills and 121 St????? I read on it and it just simply wasnt built (minus the layup @111 st).....but space was left for it??????

 

My remedies as follows...

 

1.Eliminate the bumper block and tie into the tracks...Marcy ave now becomes local during rush hours..

 

2. Build the Express track between Cypress And 121 Street.

 

3. Make The "Z" a Full time Express In the peak direction like the The "6" and "7" Express that currently run

    To Manhattan 6A-1PM And From 2pm-9pm...Or For arguments sake at least expand to 12 trains over the

     rush hour period  

 

Stops as Follows... 1.Jamaica Center

                               2.Sutphin/JFK 

                               3.Crescent St..... Then all stops to Bway Jct( Since an exp track cant be built) 

                               4.Broadway Junction 

                               5.Myrtle Ave 

                               6.Essex/Delancey St...Then all stops to Broad.

 

Considering that Southeast Queens dosent have subway service as was planned This is the LEAST mta couldve done especially since the "E" is already overcrowded AND it would give riders a fast way downtown.

I actually read that the skip stop service and the introduction of the "Z" Was specifically designed to take riders from the already congested Queens blvd line!...Go Figure..MY New "Z" Would make only 9 stops to downtown!

 

In conclusion the "J" Would become Fully local and Folks in South Bubblefuk Queens (LOL I have people out here so no offense) would get a decent ride FAST ride into the city!.Dont know why these werent built into place back then considering how progressive and ambitious NYC was back in the heyday...Unlike now..where projects take 5-10 yrs to get done SMH.....Thoughts welcomed as always...

1) The MTA had little to do with the Williamsburg Bridge closure other than to suspend service across the bridge. The DOT was doing work on the bridge to ensure its continued longevity and required the bridge be closed to rail traffic. Also, making Marcy Av a local-only stop would lead to severe overcrowding on the local trains. Perhaps not so much on inbound trains, but outbound riders would have to transfer at Myrtle Av for service to Jamaica.

 

2) The main goal of the skip-stop and is to provide even passenger distribution. While I do agree the hours of skip-stop service should be extended to the full rush-hour periods, I'm not sure if having the bypass most stops would be beneficial.

 

3) The main reason why Jamaica never received a third track on that section is quite simple: money, specifically a lack of it. When the BRT built the Jamaica extension as part of the Dual Contracts, they left that provision in the event they'd get additional revenue from the new lines built. However, they did not foresee the financial problems the company would face over the next decade or so. This situation would repeat itself through every iteration of city transit operators from the BoT to the current MTA. Money that might have been allocated to triple-tracking the Jamaica line was instead used for other more pressing needs. Then there's the issue of making sure the structure could handle a third track in the first place.

 

Valid points so far...And to answer the problem at marcy avenue....GET OVER IT lol...its ONE STOP to Manhattan...Think about the poor souls traveling from Laurelton-Springfield grdns-South Jamaica and etc..And with the J running fully local they will have additional service with J n M trains servicing it.

 

And just what is the issue with this infamous curve??? I know the trains gotta slo down but what diffrence is this from say...

 

Tremont 2/5 

Whitlock 6

Qnsboro plza 7 

149/GC 5 Curve????

 

with that being said this could be a blessing in disguise...the time it takes to slow down southbound will allow for smooth merging of trains and northbound theres no delay as the trains would simply switch to the express track...slow into cypress...then take off!!

First off, the curve at Whitlock Av is not as sharp as the other curves you listed. Secondly, all the other curves mentioned have slow speed limits. I know for a fact trains slow to a crawl around West Farms Sq and at the Mott Haven junction. And while I cannot speak personally for the section around Queensboro Plaza, I recall that being a relatively slow speed section as well.

[Wallyhorse]

As I remember, there had been suggestions before of building the third track on the stretch between 121st and 75th Street and have the track (probably before Cypress Hills) go above the local track onto a single-track structure that would operate during peak hours only and go straight to Broadway Junction via Jamaica Avenue, re-joining the main line just past the Alabama Avenue station going west (railroad south) and coming in on the express track at Broadway Junction.  

This perhaps could be done by doing a full rebuild of the section past 121st Street to include a new station at 126th that would be three tracks and two island platforms that also can serve as a short-turn terminal when needed (with new crossovers in the area as well) as part of a long-term total rebuild of the line where stations would be lengthened to handle 600' trains.  Woodhaven Boulevard can be an express stop in this scenario with that station as part of this rebuilt to two island platforms and three tracks.

The could be a way to re-tool the Jamaica Line where:

The runs as it does now.

The is the full-time local between Marcy Avenue and Jamaica Center.

The becomes the peak-direction express line between Marcy Avenue and 126th Street (new express station), with stops only at Jamaica Center, Sutphin Boulevard, 126th Street, Woodhaven Boulevard, Broadway Junction and Myrtle Avenue before Marcy.  This would run to Manhattan from 5:30 AM-1:15 PM and from Manhattan from 2:00-11:00 PM on weekdays with select trains beginning/terminating at 126th, on Saturdays to Manhattan from 8:00 AM-3:30 PM and from Manhattan from 4:00 PM-Midnight (EXCEPT on Belmont Stakes Day, when it would run express to Jamaica Center from 7:30 AM-5:30 PM and from Jamaica Center from 6:30 PM-Midnight to take pressure off the LIRR) and on Sundays to Manhattan from 10:00 AM-3:30 PM and from Jamaica from 4:30-9:00 PM (with additional hours as warranted on Puerto Rican Parade and other select Sundays).  This line would run as additional trains in the non-peak direction.

That to me solves the express issue on the line.  

[Lance]

Two things with that:

 

First off, as always, you're putting the cart before the horse. Before you start drawing up these elaborate service plans, you need to think about how we're going to get from where we are now. And that leads into my second point. You'd have to sell the people along Jamaica Ave the idea of a new 1.5 mile long elevated line where there hasn't been one before. It's even more of an uphill climb when those people see absolutely no benefit since there would be no intermediate stations between Cypress Hills and Broadway Junction.

[Wallyhorse]

Two things with that:

 

First off, as always, you're putting the cart before the horse. Before you start drawing up these elaborate service plans, you need to think about how we're going to get from where we are now. And that leads into my second point. You'd have to sell the people along Jamaica Ave the idea of a new 1.5 mile long elevated line where there hasn't been one before. It's even more of an uphill climb when those people see absolutely no benefit since there would be no intermediate stations between Cypress Hills and Broadway Junction.

This is something that has been suggested elsewhere many times (I'm far from the first with this idea).  

 

You probably could have an intermediate stop or two along Jamaica Avenue (that would be only one platform since this would only stop in the peak direction at most times), most likely at Highland Boulevard-Force Tube Road as the only such station (though you could conceivably have a late-night/outside peak direction use shuttle between Broadway Junction and Woodhaven Road with such a station there).   The main purpose of this would be to create a peak-direction express line that would extend from Marcy Avenue to around 126th Street (and a new station there).  

[B46 via Utica]

1) The MTA had little to do with the Williamsburg Bridge closure other than to suspend service across the bridge. The DOT was doing work on the bridge to ensure its continued longevity and required the bridge be closed to rail traffic. Also, making Marcy Av a local-only stop would lead to severe overcrowding on the local trains. Perhaps not so much on inbound trains, but outbound riders would have to transfer at Myrtle Av for service to Jamaica.

 

2) The main goal of the skip-stop and is to provide even passenger distribution. While I do agree the hours of skip-stop service should be extended to the full rush-hour periods, I'm not sure if having the bypass most stops would be beneficial.

 

3) The main reason why Jamaica never received a third track on that section is quite simple: money, specifically a lack of it. When the BRT built the Jamaica extension as part of the Dual Contracts, they left that provision in the event they'd get additional revenue from the new lines built. However, they did not foresee the financial problems the company would face over the next decade or so. This situation would repeat itself through every iteration of city transit operators from the BoT to the current MTA. Money that might have been allocated to triple-tracking the Jamaica line was instead used for other more pressing needs. Then there's the issue of making sure the structure could handle a third track in the first place.

 

 

First off, the curve at Whitlock Av is not as sharp as the other curves you listed. Secondly, all the other curves mentioned have slow speed limits. I know for a fact trains slow to a crawl around West Farms Sq and at the Mott Haven junction. And while I cannot speak personally for the section around Queensboro Plaza, I recall that being a relatively slow speed section as well.

To add on, One other reason that that portion of Jamaica doesn't have a third track is because the amount of buildings you would have to tear down on Jamaica Ave if something ever happens passengers can easily transfer to the Q56. Also Marcy Ave has no choice but to be a local stop the express tracks completely end before going on to the Williamsburg bridge that section is used to layup trains.

[checkmatechamp13]

This is something that has been suggested elsewhere many times (I'm far from the first with this idea).  

 

You probably could have an intermediate stop or two along Jamaica Avenue (that would be only one platform since this would only stop in the peak direction at most times), most likely at Highland Boulevard-Force Tube Road as the only such station (though you could conceivably have a late-night/outside peak direction use shuttle between Broadway Junction and Woodhaven Road with such a station there).   The main purpose of this would be to create a peak-direction express line that would extend from Marcy Avenue to around 126th Street (and a new station there).  

 

What's by 126th that requires an express station there?

[Around the Horn]

What's by 126th that requires an express station there?

I think 121st can't be turned into an express station so he's adding another one.

[checkmatechamp13]

I think 121st can't be turned into an express station so he's adding another one.

 

What's wrong with a simple Sutphin-Woodhaven run?

[bobtehpanda]

What's wrong with a simple Sutphin-Woodhaven run?

 

To be honest, 121 should be closed entirely and moved over a block or two to Lefferts, where the wider amount of space would allow for an express stop with connections to the Q10. In the same vein, 104 St should be moved to 101 St.

[Wallyhorse]

What's wrong with a simple Sutphin-Woodhaven run?

The fact there is no room for a third track past where I would put a new station (126th).   That was a bit of shortsightedness in that regard not making the tracks to at least Parsons-Archer three tracks (even if the latter was never intended to be the terminal permanently).  

 

The idea is, the new station would double as a short-turn terminal as part of a total rebuild of that area that would include the express track and the long express run after Woodhaven Boulevard.

[Kamen Rider]

This is why some of us come down hard on people who radomly propose things.

 

The OP based all this on 15 year old recolcetions and Wikipedia...

 

#1. Marcy has a rather high passenger rank, 126th. It's the highest ranked non-transfer station on the Jamaica line. It's the highest ranked station on the J in Brooklyn. Why? First off, Marcy has the bus terminal. Then there is that large swath of redeveloped Williamsburg. Thousands upon thousands of hipsters, who mostly don't have cars (and the ones that do don't know how to use them properly in the city), so they take the train. They are constantly building new high rise apartment buildings on the waterfront.

 

 

So you can see why, suddenly, because a section of track exists, then that station should take a rush hours service CUT, is a bad idea.

 

#2 "enough to make a noticeable difference" The White Plains road 5s can't compare to the Z. different idea. But the Z works, that's why we still have it. Idealy, the Z would run between Js, so a train with only half the load is pulling in at once. The Z hasn't joined the 9 because the effective load distribution.

 

#3 Even if they built out the third track, they probably wouldn't use it.

[bobtehpanda]

The fact there is no room for a third track past where I would put a new station (126th).   That was a bit of shortsightedness in that regard not making the tracks to at least Parsons-Archer three tracks (even if the latter was never intended to be the terminal permanently).  

 

The idea is, the new station would double as a short-turn terminal as part of a total rebuild of that area that would include the express track and the long express run after Woodhaven Boulevard.

 

That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard of. You can have a two-track terminal for a three-track express. In fact, in some cases that may be ideal; Times Sq has a lot more throughput than Main St. What would be the point of a three-track terminal for a short turn? To avoid the very last stop like at Willets Point or at Bedford Park Blvd?

[Wallyhorse]

That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard of. You can have a two-track terminal for a three-track express. In fact, in some cases that may be ideal; Times Sq has a lot more throughput than Main St. What would be the point of a three-track terminal for a short turn? To avoid the very last stop like at Willets Point or at Bedford Park Blvd?

The point is, the three-track setup at 126 allows for a short-turn terminal when needed and also if there are too many trains for Parsons-Archer to handle.  The bulk of express trains would go to Parsons-Archer in this setup.

[Lance]

So, you want to spend billions of dollars to build a "secondary terminal" for a line that is nowhere near capacity? Makes perfect sense.

 

By the way, Jamaica-Parsons is not a bad terminal because it only has two tracks. It's not a good one because of switch placement.