Riverdale Fights Yet Again For Improved & Expanded Bx10/Bx20 Service

[Via Garibaldi 8]

http://riverdalepress.com/stories/Petition-demands-better-bus-service-on-Bx10-20,60055

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

If the buses are so packed in Riverdale and there needs to be so much service why are the headways of the Bx7 and 10 currently hovering around systemwide average? This is plain old political brokering here.

[MysteriousBtrain]

I don't see Bx20 service returning with weekend service. If weekend service is to return, there needs to me a certain extension or section that would be served by the route alone.

If dyckman wasn't served by the M100, I would say make the Bx20 go there. Now I am not sure of any way that Bx20 service can expand.

[The TransitMan]

Wasn't the M100 "expansion" to W 246th St (like it did back in the 1990s) suppose to eliminate the Bx20? Wasn't there talk of that?

 

***NOTE: To clarify, this was suppose to be an alternating thing. During weekends only, M100 end at W 220th St in Inwood and the next goes to W 246th St in Riverdale***

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If the buses are so packed in Riverdale and there needs to be so much service why are the headways of the Bx7 and 10 currently hovering around systemwide average? This is plain old political brokering here.

The reason is simple. The refuses to add more service. A very simple solution would be to run more artics on the Bx7 AND have more Bx10 buses run ONLY to 246th and Henry Hudson Parkway with the Bx20. All you have to do is see how many people pile off of the train to see that there are not enough buses to match demand. If there's a train say every 4-6 minutes and buses run every 8 minutes or so, the math doesn't add up. They could simply NOT add more service on the Bx7 and substitute 40 footers with artics, but they have even been resistant to that.

The folks down in Spuyten Duyvil are yelling the most because the Bx10 crawls worse than the Bx7, which a few posters have already mentioned in previous threads. Additionally, there is heavy usage at Kappock St and Johnson and Kappock St and Knolls Crescent. If they can't run artics on the Bx10, then have a few shuttles run to 231st to 246th during certain periods to alleviate the crowding. Dispatch can't do much because its an issue of overcrowding and a lack of buses. They're already short turning some Bx7's at 246th and Henry Hudson Parkway when they run in packs.

 

The express buses aren't as crowded beecause reliability has been ATRICOUS (every BxM2 bus that I have taken to Riverdale has been late for the past few weeks), so those people switch to the subway and local bus in some cases. Fix the reliability of the express buses and you could deal with the overcrowding on the local buses. Imagine if Co-Op City had horrendous BxM7 service. Those people would also switch in some cases to the subway and local buses, so it all makes sense.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Wasn't the M100 "expansion" to W 246th St (like it did back in the 1990s) suppose to eliminate the Bx20? Wasn't there talk of that?***NOTE: To clarify, this was suppose to be an alternating thing. During weekends only, M100 end at W 220th St in Inwood and the next goes to W 246th St in Riverdale***

Reliability issues were a problem for the M100. The people in Spuyten Duyvil want the Bx20 back on weekends because they are cut off from the without making an additional transfer from the Bx10 to the Bx7. The very hilly topography makes the Bx20 a necessity. The can be knocked out on weekends which means a much longer commute for those residents with more transfers.

I don't see Bx20 service returning with weekend service. If weekend service is to return, there needs to me a certain extension or section that would be served by the route alone.

If dyckman wasn't served by the M100, I would say make the Bx20 go there. Now I am not sure of any way that Bx20 service can expand.

I don't think the Bx20 is a must on weekends, BUT I don't live down in Spuyten Duyvil (aka "South Riverdale"). Being in Central Riverdale, I have access to all of the local buses (Bx1, Bx7, Bx10 and Bx20), so that's easy for me to say and I am young and agile. However, I do understand why they want it back on weekends. I would run the Bx20 every 20 minutes on Saturday and Sunday, but no more than that.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

http://riverdalepress.com/stories/Petition-demands-better-bus-service-on-Bx10-20,60055

 

Yes, but the Riverdale folks still won't specify whose service should be cut so that they can have more.

 

(Remember, there is a bus shortage, so any weekday changes must be zero-sum.)

[Jdog14]

They could simply NOT add more service on the Bx7 and substitute 40 footers with artics, but they have even been resistant to that.

 

 

 

 

They don't have the artics to run them on the Bx1/2/9/41/15 in additon to the Bx7. 

[Cait Sith]

They don't have the artics to run them on the Bx1/2/9/41/15 in additon to the Bx7. 

 

Which is why they had to borrow some from other depots to make that happen.

 

Which makes me wonder what came about with that pilot program they had with the artics.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yes, but the Riverdale folks still won't specify whose service should be cut so that they can have more.

 

(Remember, there is a bus shortage, so any weekday changes must be zero-sum.)

Since you advocate for service cuts constantly, you can volunteer your service in Queens... 

They don't have the artics to run them on the Bx1/2/9/41/15 in additon to the Bx7.

 

Which is preposterous with all of these new buses coming in.

[Jdog14]

Which is preposterous with all of these new buses coming in.

 

Not really. The oldest artics are being retired with the newer artics coming. The only reason we still have them running is because the Q10 needed them. 

[tripleeye49]

I think for the time being they should keep some of the better running older buses around longer, and maybe refurbish them.  When the new order comes in, then certain routes can get them, which brings me to this question, can those streets in Upstairs / South Riverdale handle artics on a regular basis? And also do you think that having all Bx7 / Bx10 buses convert to articulated would help the situation?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Not really. The oldest artics are being retired with the newer artics coming. The only reason we still have them running is because the Q10 needed them.

 

If there's a shortage of artics, then yes it is preposterous.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think for the time being they should keep some of the better running older buses around longer, and maybe refurbish them. When the new order comes in, then certain routes can get them, which brings me to this question, can those streets in Upstairs / South Riverdale handle artics on a regular basis? And also do you think that having all Bx7 / Bx10 buses convert to articulated would help the situation?

The 40 footers aren't the issue. The problem is that apparently Kingsbridge is short on artics. As for your question about Spuyten Duyvil, I requested bigger buses for the Hudson Rail Link bus a few months ago, and a representative from Metro-North responded that the streets down there make using bigger buses more difficult, so if I would imagine that the would make that same argument for the Bx10 since the Hudson Rail Link buses run along the same streets.

[Cait Sith]

Which is preposterous with all of these new buses coming in.

Not really. Bus for bus replacements. If we had still kept the older New Flyers from 2000, we would have more than enough artics to have them on the Bx7 and Bx10. But because of the need of replacements, we still don't have enough to go around.

[Around the Horn]

Which is preposterous with all of these new buses coming in.

90% of the new buses coming in are 40 footers...

 

The new artics other than this MTAB order won't come in until next year (2017) and the majority will be in service by 2019, so if you can make it through these next 2-3 years with the 40 foot buses they can make the change then...

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Since you advocate for service cuts constantly, you can volunteer your service in Queens... Which is preposterous with all of these new buses coming in.

 

No, I don't.

 

The buses that have been delivered over the past year or two were ordered only to replace older, end-of-life buses. In fact, most of the oldest buses are scrapped before their replacements arrive.

Which is why they had to borrow some from other depots to make that happen.

 

Borrowing buses from other depots means cutting service elsewhere to serve Riverdale.

[IAlam]

If  equipment shortage is the issue then cutting the Bx7 back to Inwood could allow for more service

Swap the M100 and Bx7 path in Inwood, have the M100 terminate in Marble Hill and the Bx7 terminate at Inwood.

A service increase on the M100 would be needed to handle passengers but it wouldn't be as much service to match the Bx7.

 

This is the best solution I can think of.

[checkmatechamp13]

Wasn't the M100 "expansion" to W 246th St (like it did back in the 1990s) suppose to eliminate the Bx20? Wasn't there talk of that?

 

***NOTE: To clarify, this was suppose to be an alternating thing. During weekends only, M100 end at W 220th St in Inwood and the next goes to W 246th St in Riverdale***

 

You have it backwards. The M100 originally went from East Harlem to 246th Street. It was too unreliable, so they split it in Inwood (which is right near the Kingsbridge Depot). All the run-ons and run-offs would likely eliminate any savings from eliminating the small overlap between 207th Street and 220th (which now barely overlaps, since the M100 runs down Nagle Avenue and doesn't serve 207th/Broadway)

 

If  equipment shortage is the issue then cutting the Bx7 back to Inwood could allow for more service

Swap the M100 and Bx7 path in Inwood, have the M100 terminate in Marble Hill and the Bx7 terminate at Inwood.

A service increase on the M100 would be needed to handle passengers but it wouldn't be as much service to match the Bx7.

 

This is the best solution I can think of.

 

Keep in mind that it only works if those extra M100 buses only run between Washington Heights and Inwood and if the service increase required in that portion of the corridor is less than (basically) double (for simplicity's sake, assume the Bx7 & M100 run at a similar frequency)

 

Ehhh.....I think the math might work out crowding-wise, but then you're screwing western Inwood/Washington Heights residents out of an easy ride to The Bronx (a lot of hills separate the from the ) and on top of that, Riverdale residents have to loop through the Dyckman Houses to connect with the instead of just catching it at 207th Street.

 

As far as extra service goes, the Riverdale residents would have to prove that, within a given half-hour timespan, the average bus has more than a certain number of passengers passing through the peak load point. If that's not the case, then they'll have to make do with the current system of short-turning existing Bx10 buses at 246th when they run late and/or bunched (it evens out the crowds by making sure people north of 246th take the quicker Bx7)

 

Maybe rewrite the runs so that more Bx7 buses are coming fresh out of the depot to make their run to 263rd at the most crowded times (and then hold them as needed).

 

All you have to do is see how many people pile off of the   train to see that there are not enough buses to match demand. If there's a   train say every 4-6 minutes and buses run every 8 minutes or so, the math doesn't add up.

 

Once again, they deal with averages. The math is a bit more complicated (but not by much) than "the train runs more frequently than the individual bus lines". Why? Because you're not trying to fit a packed trainload of people onto a single bus (or more specifically, each individual train doesn't deliver enough passengers to 231st Street to result in packed westbound buses).

 

By the time the train reaches 231st Street, a good chunk of the passengers have gotten off in Upper Manhattan. Out of the people who do get off at 231st Street, a certain amount get off and walk, and a certain amount board eastbound Bx1 & Bx10 buses. Then you have the people heading towards Riverdale & Spuyten Duyvil.

 

So the equation to determine the proper amount of service on the Riverdale-bound buses comes down to this:

 

(**Riverdale-bound passengers exiting 231st Street from roughly 15 TPH worth of northbound trains**) + (**Riverdale-bound passengers already on the Bx7/10/20 when they pull into the westbound stop at 231st/Broadway**) + (**Riverdale-bound passengers transferring off southbound trains, Bx9s from any direction, or simply walking from that general area**) = (the capacity available by the amount of Riverdale-bound local bus service)

 

And of course, you can break it down by Spuyten Duyvil vs. Central/North Riverdale to determine the exact amount of Bx7 service vs. Bx10/20 service that should be provided.

 

Is that statement true? Maybe, or maybe not, but it's more than just "the runs more frequently than the Bx7 or Bx10 or Bx20". 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Once again, they deal with averages. The math is a bit more complicated (but not by much) than "the train runs more frequently than the individual bus lines". Why? Because you're not trying to fit a packed trainload of people onto a single bus (or more specifically, each individual train doesn't deliver enough passengers to 231st Street to result in packed westbound buses).

 

By the time the train reaches 231st Street, a good chunk of the passengers have gotten off in Upper Manhattan. Out of the people who do get off at 231st Street, a certain amount get off and walk, and a certain amount board eastbound Bx1 & Bx10 buses. Then you have the people heading towards Riverdale & Spuyten Duyvil.

 

So the equation to determine the proper amount of service on the Riverdale-bound buses comes down to this:

 

(**Riverdale-bound passengers exiting 231st Street from roughly 15 TPH worth of northbound trains**) + (**Riverdale-bound passengers already on the Bx7/10/20 when they pull into the westbound stop at 231st/Broadway**) + (**Riverdale-bound passengers transferring off southbound trains, Bx9s from any direction, or simply walking from that general area**) = (the capacity available by the amount of Riverdale-bound local bus service)

 

And of course, you can break it down by Spuyten Duyvil vs. Central/North Riverdale to determine the exact amount of Bx7 service vs. Bx10/20 service that should be provided.

 

Is that statement true? Maybe, or maybe not, but it's more than just "the runs more frequently than the Bx7 or Bx10 or Bx20".

 

Why are you bringing up all of these other things that are A) obvious and B) completely IRRELEVANT to the topic at hand?? The people that I'm referring to pouring off of the are heading to Riverdale on the Bx10, Bx20 and Bx7. Who cares about where the other people are going and how many people got off before in Upper Manhattan? Despite you trying to downplay how many people are using the to get to Spuyten Duyvil and Riverdale via the aforementioned buses, it is CLEAR from visual observations that more service is needed. I don't give a damn how they go about doing that. They're supposed to be the experts so whatever calculations they need to do, get it done and get the service that is needed. They need to stop trying to downplay how much service is needed with this average BS. Dispatch is always out there and they can see with their own eyes that is an overcrowding problem in part due to not enough buses meeting up with the amount of trains dumping people at the bus stop. Please don't bring up anything else about people getting off earlier or going to other places, as I am not discussing that, nor is it relevant to the discussion, as you're doing nothing but complicating a fairly simple issue. The math may be complicated but outside of that, that's about it.

[checkmatechamp13]

Why are you bringing up all of these other things that are A) obvious and B) completely IRRELEVANT to the topic at hand?? The people that I'm referring to pouring off of the are heading to Riverdale on the Bx10, Bx20 and Bx7. Who cares about where the other people are going and how many people got off before in Upper Manhattan? Despite you trying to downplay how many people are using the to get to Spuyten Duyvil and Riverdale via the aforementioned buses, it is CLEAR from visual observations that more service is needed. I don't give a damn how they go about doing that. They're supposed to be the experts so whatever calculations they need to do, get it done and get the service that is needed. They need to stop trying to downplay how much service is needed with this average BS. Dispatch is always out there and they can see with their own eyes that is an overcrowding problem in part due to not enough buses meeting up with the amount of trains dumping people at the bus stop. Please don't bring up anything else about people getting off earlier or going to other places, as I am not discussing that, nor is it relevant to the discussion, as you're doing nothing but complicating a fairly simple issue. The math may be complicated but outside of that, that's about it.

 

It's sad that our education system is so poor that simple addition is now considered "complicated". 

 

And that overcrowding.......is it on the average bus? If one bus leaves packed, and the next leaves half-empty, then as far as the MTA is concerned, it's within the guidelines and there's no need for any more service. 

 

Page 26

 

Every half hour, are there more than 220 people seeking Spuyten Duyvil service on the Bx10/20? Are there more than 220 people seeking North Riverdale service on the Bx7? That's the only way the MTA will add more service.

 

All the traffic checkers have to do is stand there for 30 minutes, and add together all the passengers on all the buses pulling out of the stop, and see if it adds to 220. If you stand there yourself for 30 minutes, you can contest their numbers. Or if they calculate the number of passengers using BusTime now (which I mentioned towards the end of the Q48 thread), you can contest their BusTime figures (like I said, those figures can be ridiculously low at times. Can those Riverdale residents figure it out? For their sake, I hope they can). But standing there and saying "It's not rocket science" isn't going to get you anywhere.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's sad that our education system is so poor that simple addition is now considered "complicated".

 

And that overcrowding.......is it on the average bus? If one bus leaves packed, and the next leaves half-empty, then as far as the MTA is concerned, it's within the guidelines and there's no need for any more service.

 

Page 26

 

Every half hour, are there more than 220 people seeking Spuyten Duyvil service on the Bx10/20? Are there more than 220 people seeking North Riverdale service on the Bx7? That's the only way the MTA will add more service.

 

All the traffic checkers have to do is stand there for 30 minutes, and add together all the passengers on all the buses pulling out of the stop, and see if it adds to 220. If you stand there yourself for 30 minutes, you can contest their numbers. Or if they calculate the number of passengers using BusTime now (which I mentioned towards the end of the Q48 thread), you can contest their BusTime figures (like I said, those figures can be ridiculously low at times. Can those Riverdale residents figure it out? For their sake, I hope they can). But standing there and saying "It's not rocket science" isn't going to get you anywhere.

Apparently the math is complicated for the because I have observed dispatch state to drivers to pull out ASAP "before more people come" (and they're referring specifically to the train folks. They can see what I can see, which is folks walking or running over to the bus stop from the subway, and they make up the bulk of the people getting on. Hell if I were involved, I would just video record the crowds and send the evidence to the . Hard to dispute that. They can do the math from there. Another thing that's been going is people getting on at the next two stops. I don't know what's up with that, but it just adds to the problem. They obviously don't want to walk up the hills, but the point is, they are more and more of them getting on at those stops.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

For those saying that there aren't enough artics, they should have enough 40 footers then. All they would need is one shuttle bus from 231st to 246th. That bus can deadhead back to 231st and pick up again. My understanding is the buses running to 231st usually go right back to the depot, but still. I find it hard to believe that having a bus deadhead from say Kingsbridge Depot to 231st would be that expensive.

[Q43 Floral Park]

For those saying that there aren't enough artics, they should have enough 40 footers then. All they would need is one shuttle bus from 231st to 246th. That bus can deadhead back to 231st and pick up again. My understanding is the buses running to 231st usually go right back to the depot, but still. I find it hard to believe that having a bus deadhead from say Kingsbridge Depot to 231st would be that expensive.

 

I'm not sure what the total number of runs are per route but I can tell you KB needs ~255-270 buses for bare minimum service + spares. They have 265 right now and actually have 5 more artics than 40 footers (if you ignore the SBS buses). Considering that they're using 40 fts in lieu of artics on artic routes, that should pretty much tell you every bus is accounted for.

 

It's not even about it being expensive or a pain in the behind (as the Bx7 artic runs legit required stealing service from other places), there are at least 5 things that need to be improved with KB routes before they pander to Riverdale yet again. 

 

I just find the original article funny because they mention running standard size buses at all times when that already happens, they don't state what type of frequency increase is needed on the Bx10 and the Bx20 on the weekend is a known joke. As for this whole long wait issue I'm calling BS (especially because they aren't giving any figures)... There's never a point where someone is getting off at 231 St and the next Bx7/10/20 is 20-30 mins away but that happens every PM rush at 238 St with the Bx3. 

 

Y'all (people in Riverdale) might want to ask for some rush hour Bx1 runs (2-4 per hour 5-7PM) to be sent to 246 via the Bx20 because that's the only way to get artics up there without really screwing everyone else over. 

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

How difficult would it be for traffic checkers to just stand and video record the buses so when the numbers are crunched back at the office there's actual evidence that the numbers gathered are realistic? On that note full length trips on many routes could stand to be recorded as well so more appropriate short turns can be used. 

 

One thing though, is that figuring out the exact amount of service to offer a route (with decent ridership) without any inefficiency whatsoever is rocket science. There are too many variables involved that can shift from day to day. Route design also plays a role as well. Where is the peak load point relative to the terminals of a route? What percentage of a route's activity is within the area of the peak load point? Is the route in question active enough to where you have either a peak load stretch or multiple peak load points? How far from the peak load point does ridership dissipate or in the opposite direction begin to accumulate largely?