Red Hook subway station part of Cuomo’s proposal to revitalize Brooklyn neighborhood

[Wallyhorse]

16 hours ago, Deucey said:

Why build a tunnel across the water for one station when the problem with Red Hook could easily be solved by building a  or  spur line from between Bergen and Carroll Sts Stations. 

Do that and everyone has a quick ride to Manhattan or Williamsburg - even if one has to take three or more trains.

Maybe this can be a new train that runs there if there is sufficient capacity?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

36 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Maybe this can be a new train that runs there if there is sufficient capacity?

There isn’t sufficient track capacity. Here’s why:

15 hours ago, RR503 said:

Where would this track capacity come from? Unless you make the  go back to Nassau, there is simply no way to add Culver express/ red hook  service without decreasing culver local/ non red hook   service. And anyway, branching off of culver kinda anywhere would be a disaster -- it runs under narrow streets, over gigantic viaducts, and through extremely dense areas. 

 

[checkmatechamp13]

19 hours ago, D to 96 St said:

Agree 100%. If you branched it off of Culver, this is would just feed the whole of Red Hook into the busy section of Culver, leading to overcrowding at Bergen. 

The  is the best option.  It can include a stop on Governors' Island and Battery Park City. I would have it go peak-express north of 96 St, but can VCP-242 St handle that dose of extra capacity? The  isn't really a good choice because it is a better use of resources to connect it to Fulton.  also isn't good for reasons above and we don't have enough cars. And this would be cheap as well.

I don't think the streets are wide enough in Red Hook to accommodate LRT or BRT..... There's a reason why buses like the B57 and B61 are all local down there. 

You don't really need extra trains, considering the peak load point is towards the northern end of the line (around 96th Street if I'm not mistaken), not the southern end.

18 hours ago, Skipper said:

So, will I have to change my username, then? Given that it's such a long route, why not bring back skip-stop service to ease the length?

It's not that long. The  is one of the shorter lines in the system (even if it's all-local), and an extension of say 2-3 miles with only a few stops (maybe 1-2 in Red Hook, plus a connection to the  ) wouldn't add too much in terms of travel time (especially considering the only real merge would be the one at Rector Street)

In any case, there's nothing stopping new construction from having IND-width tunnels and so on, with IRT-width platforms (I believe a lot of Dual Contracts lines have this feature).

[LGA Link N Train]

I'm gonna make this claim one more time.

ANY SUBWAY EXTENSION TO RED HOOK IS INFEASBILE, unless you decided to build a spur tunnel from Whitehall and have the terminate there which in my opinion would be the only exception to this whole discussion after the 211's arrive but still I don't agree with ANY subway extension to Red Hook

[CenSin]

Since new construction ought to be B-division standards, then the tunnel should also be bored so that it can connect to a B-division line. I argue that this tunnel should be built for the possibility of connecting to 2 Avenue. Some sort of bellmouth needs to be retained underground for a connection.

Additionally, Cortlandt Street will need an in-system transfer passageway to the Chambers Street–World Trade Center/Park Place complex since it will be the second stop in Manhattan for the . A connection to the and will provide some access along the center of Manhattan. Otherwise, the will not have any useful transfers until it hits the (which only serves 14 Street), Times Square, and Columbus Circle. East side access is not very convenient from Red Hook.

[BrooklynBus]

9 hours ago, Lance said:

Cuomo really wants to be president, doesn't he? Of course, he'd get more support if he actually did something useful, like rectify the existing problems with the current subway infrastructure. I mean, who cares that subway delays have grown exponentially over the years and on time performance has dropped like a rock. The subway to Red Hook is a must. Also, I guess actual areas where transit is insufficient, like swaths of Eastern Queens, along with the Third Ave and Utica Ave corridors in the Bronx and Brooklyn don't matter as long as the up and coming Red Hook gets first dibs on an expansion. I'm all for subway expansion, but Red Hook falls so far down the list of useful expansion projects, it's not even on the first page. Something like this, which is obviously meant to spur development in the area, should be paid for primarily by private investors and not the cash-strapped MTA. Either that or the agency should see a chunk of the subsequent revenue from the planned developments.

On the subject of which line would be extended under this resurrected proposal, there are a few options. The South Ferry branch of 7th Avenue seems most likely because it would not be impacted by an existing East River tunnel that would potentially siphon trains from a Brooklyn line like Broadway or 8th Avenue. Lower Jamaica is also an option with the two inner tail tracks that don't lead to the Montague tunnels. Of course, that option is not as sweet since Jamaica is only a Lower Manhattan line before curving east towards Brooklyn. I can't say which would be chosen, but right off the bat we can probably eliminate an extension of the 2nd Avenue line. That is unless we want to wait another hundred years for the line to be extended beyond 63rd Street.

So let's look at some of the nonsense that has gone on recently. The city proposed a local bus route from Red Hook through the Battery Tunnel but the MTA never implemented it presumably because they didn't believe there is enough demand. So Cuomo proposes a subway. 

The MTA discontinues the M42 branch to the Javits Center because of light usage. So the City extends the Number 7 to do the same thing. 

Travel time from Midtown to LaGuardia needs to be shortened from the current 45 minutes so Cuomo comes up with a LGA extension that takes even longer. 

They will spend $5 million to study the Utica Avenue extension that never will be built because some consultant is owed a favor. Now most likely the same thing will happen with his Red Hook idea and waste more money on studies. Meanwhile he criticizes the subway for having 80 year old signals while diverting MTA funds that are needed to fix the signals. 

You talk about rectifying the existing problems. So did the New York Times in an excellent three part series that most recently explained the high construction costs and pretty much blamed all the politicians for all the MTA problems as well as the MTA itself. Yet I haven't seen any comments from a single politician about that series. Rather than commending the Times and promising things will change, they just continue to ignore the problems and propose flashy proposals to make themselves look good. So I guess the question is will the Times series change anything. So far it seems business as usual. 

[bobtehpanda]

19 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

The is an extension... to an existing line. This talk of a is something entirely different. This or whatever is a an underwater job, new construction if you will. Anything the builds is going to be to either B division or MU specs from now on. The old bang for the buck, capacity rationale. Personally I think that's the reason the Utica Avenue subway , if built, will connect to the IND Fulton St line and not use the existing bellmouths at Eastern Parkway which connect to the IRT. That's just my opinion though. Carry on.

I don't think it would be built to IRT standards; all construction since the Dual Contracts has been B Division compatible, even the Line extension.

As an interim project, Brooklyn IRT to Kings Plaza makes sense; when we get the money to build some SAS-Williamsburg-Northern Utica spur, then we can convert it to B Division as they did with the Astoria Line decades ago.

[bobtehpanda]

This project is atrocious and is only meant to serve property developers. Meanwhile the working-class people who currently live in Red Hook and the commuters getting on buses in Flushing, Jamaica, at Fordham Plaza and at the Junction can all go screw off.

[Porter]

1 hour ago, CenSin said:

Additionally, Cortlandt Street will need an in-system transfer passageway to the Chambers Street–World Trade Center/Park Place complex since it will be the second stop in Manhattan for the .

The only way to do this would be to establish a free out-of-system transfer through the heart of the WTC mall. In other words, you could go to the mall, shop for an hour or so, and then return home for free on any of nine lines.

47 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

The city proposed a local bus route from Red Hook through the Battery Tunnel but the MTA never implemented it presumably because they didn't believe there is enough demand. So Cuomo proposes a subway.

Well, when you phrase it like that, Cuomo's proposal sounds laughably outlandish, if not downright comparable to shooting a mosquito with a cannon.

 

[bobtehpanda]

43 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

You are all right about Red Hook. Probably the only reason Cuomo supports it is because he has "nostalgic feelings" and wants to bring the  back for this reason solely. 

I think the best option is not BRT or LRT, rather reviving the B71. Red Hook would get WAY more service that way. But this is just Hudson Yards 2.0.

However, why do you want people getting on at those stops to "screw off?"

You're misreading it. I think this project should not happen, and it's a f**k you to actual real New Yorkers.

[Porter]

48 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

Probably the only reason Cuomo supports it is because he has "nostalgic feelings" and wants to bring the  back for this reason solely.

1989-2005
2001-2010

Neither lived long enough to cultivate any real nostalgia. The , on the other hand, had been around since 1979, which is actually the reason that the created the bullet in the first place, instead of more logically keeping the intact and axing the instead; that decision was made for the reason of nostalgia for the letter M and indifference towards the letter V.

[Deucey]

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

You're misreading it. I think this project should not happen, and it's a f**k you to actual real New Yorkers.

I concur. If we're gonna spend money on waste of time and low utility projects like tunneling from FiDi to Red Hook, why don't we do something worthwhile from Hylan's plan and connect the SIRT to the  , since possibly 40,000 people a day would ride that (and I'd never have to stand up on the Ferry again)?

[NewFlyer 230]

I know I have bias towards Queens since I live there, but can we get another line in Queens before they even think about giving Brooklyn more stations. Queens is the real transit desert besides Staten Island. When you look at what Queens has, there is the  but that is pretty slow and not as frequent. The  only serves a portion of south Queens and the Rockaways. The  is at capacity itself and is all alone in Northern Queens. The  and  serves Astoria and the  really doesn't do anything at all besides act as a feeder for other lines. The  on the Metropolitan side I always felt that it stops short due to that cemetery and would have more potential if that cemetery didn't cut that line short. The Queens Blvd Lines are at capacity and just let any type of incident or sudden event happen and the whole line is backed up and delayed. All of Eastern and the middle of Queens such as Maspeth and Glendale don't have direct access and require transfers and or even back tracking. The  and  are not even that far from Red Hook so I don't understand why they need a stop exclusive for their area. If anything maybe they can find a way to reroute and extend the  over there even though I know it doesn't serve Manhattan.

[CenSin]

13 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

 really doesn't do anything at all besides act as a feeder for other lines.

The doesn’t even do that very well.

[Deucey]

8 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I know I have bias towards Queens since I live there, but can we get another line in Queens before they even think about giving Brooklyn more stations. Queens is the real transit desert besides Staten Island. When you look at what Queens has, there is the  but that is pretty slow and not as frequent. The  only serves a portion of south Queens and the Rockaways. The  is at capacity itself and is all alone in Northern Queens. The  and  serves Astoria and the  really doesn't do anything at all besides act as a feeder for other lines. The  on the Metropolitan side I always felt that it stops short due to that cemetery and would have more potential if that cemetery didn't cut that line short. The Queens Blvd Lines are at capacity and just let any type of incident or sudden event happen and the whole line is backed up and delayed. All of Eastern and the middle of Queens such as Maspeth and Glendale don't have direct access and require multiple transfers and or even back tracking. The  and  are not even that far from Red Hook so I don't understand why they need a stop exclusive for their area. If anything maybe they can find a way to reroute and extend the  over there even though I know it doesn't serve Manhattan.

Gawd, if any place needs more capacity it's Queens. Two lines within 2 miles of each other for the most part and all are at capacity? 

Let me be @Wallyhorse for a minute: Let's say it starts at or near Hudson Yards, operates as the 34th st Local as a deep bore, then connects to  at Court Square, becomes a 4-track express that curves onto Metropolitan Av, then splits to two lines: one three track line down Woodhaven or the RBB to serve the Rockaways; the other a three track line up Union Turnpike, up Utopia Pkwy to Northern Bl over to Queensborough Community College - with a flying junction for a Northern Blvd line to LGA and 125th and Broadway.

[NewFlyer 230]

1 hour ago, CenSin said:

The doesn’t even do that very well.

Yeah that’s true. I feel bad for that route and the people who use it. That route had half it’s route cut in 2001 which I know it did run on Queens Blvd afterwards, but it was cut back many times for construction. Logistically creating another route that went into the city was smart and definitely needed due to the increased demand. Of course that meant that the got the boot and was kicked off of Queens Blvd and it’s train sets were cut down to 4 cars. The  misses so many vital connection such as the connection to the  at Queens Plaza and the  and  at Queensboro Plaza (which I think those two stations should have a free transfer). There is a missed connection between the  and  trains at the Broadway/ Hewes Street. All the MTA has to do is build an entrance and transfer at Montrose Ave which would be at the end of both platforms that currently don’t have an entrance. Fulton Street is just too far away from Altantic Barclays to connect with the  and LIRR. Perhaps the MTA could build a free underground transfer between both Hoyt Streets just to allow the  to connect with the  and  which could all provide a cross under for that station as well. If all those said transfers were possible the  would probably have more ridership then it does. 

 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Which station rehab will be cancelled to pay for this feasibility study? 

[CenSin]

2 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Which station rehab will be cancelled to pay for this feasibility study? 

Whichever one serves a population that least affects election prospects

[RR503]

3 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Which station rehab will be cancelled to pay for this feasibility study? 

No station rehab will be cancelled.. it'll be signal maintenance. Why cut something that can create a press conference when something else can be nixed? 

[Interested Rider]

The only reason that Governor Cuomo is proposing the Red Hook Study is that since it is an election year and he most likely will be primaried by a fellow Democrat. he is very concerned that the Red Hook-Park Slope crowd may vote for the other candidate. In 2014 Zephyr Teachout  who was a virtual unknown received an astounding 34% of the vote running against Andrew, the emperor. That time, the mayor and him tried to get along as compared with now as both aspire to run for higher office which neither of them deserve to be chosen. (If anyone should be considered for the Democratic nomination, think Sherrod Brown, Senator of Ohio)..

There are other more pressing needs of  the MTA  such as the of updating the signal system and completion of the Second Avenue subway. Both the governor and the mayor better start looking at what is lurking in the shadows which is Washington imposed budget cuts on various programs. The reality is that as long as our representatives fight the president and the Republican controlled Congress  and parrot the phony impeachment line (for example), the less likely the city or the state will receive the money for the projects that we need in the future.

[N6 Limited]

Red Hook is in prime waterfront with a nice view of Downtown, the bay, Statue of Liberty, etc. this will turn it into Williamsburg South and everyone will be priced out except Red Hook Houses, and even then they may turn it into StuyTown-Brooklyn

[beelinefan]

Fixing all the issues with existing stations and all the other various issues should be dealt with first before talking about a new station. 

[Wallyhorse]

15 hours ago, Deucey said:

Gawd, if any place needs more capacity it's Queens. Two lines within 2 miles of each other for the most part and all are at capacity? 

Let me be @Wallyhorse for a minute: Let's say it starts at or near Hudson Yards, operates as the 34th st Local as a deep bore, then connects to 7/E/M/G at Court Square, becomes a 4-track express that curves onto Metropolitan Av, then splits to two lines: one three track line down Woodhaven or the RBB to serve the Rockaways; the other a three track line up Union Turnpike, up Utopia Pkwy to Northern Bl over to Queensborough Community College - with a flying junction for a Northern Blvd line to LGA and 125th and Broadway.

That would be a roundabout way for sure to get to 125th.  It would have to be at about the same level as ARC (maybe going through Macy's Basement as ARC was supposed to use for its terminal as I remember) with transfers to ALL of the other subway lines along the way on 34th, stopping at 7th-8th Avenue (transfer to    ), 6th Avenue (transfers to  ), Park Avenue (transfer to  with new passageways between that and the north ends of the 33rd Street station on the IRT with a Lexington Avenue Entrance) and 2nd Avenue (Transfer to ) with an additional exit at 1st or 3rd Avenue.  On the back end at 125, you'd likely need stops on Randalls Island (most likely two stops near the athletic facilities and Ichan Stadium) and then at 1st-2nd Avenue (possibly at 124th with a direct connection to the SAS from there), then 125-Lex (transfer to ), 5th-Lenox Avenue (Transfer to  ), St. Nicholas Avenue (Transfer to ) and Broadway (Transfer to  and possibly a new Metro-North station at 125th-12th Avenue).

[RR503]

6 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

I bet that this "  to Red Hook nonsense" was proposed/brought up because the working-class residents are too lazy to walk to the . 

 

Wow.. Classism much? 

This proposal has appeared almost certainly because Cuomo needs $$$ from consulting firms for 2018 and 2020, and becuase he wants to distract the public eye away from the recent times pieces. 

[Mtatransit]

The B61 and a lot of bus route had night frequency cut back to once every 30 min. Would do much better good for average New Yorkers if they increased the frequency of bus service to the area instead of focusing on the "stubway" which frankly I believe Cuomo knows nothing about the subway or which one to extend but only knows he have to make Red Hook happy.