Bay Ridge Express Posted June 23, 2019 Share #426 Posted June 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said: Still though, I don’t think sending the via 63 to QBL is better, simply because of the multiple merges required to run it. And you wouldn’t be able to run additional service for 2nd Avenue. It's not. But I'd like to hear some better suggestions. Like I said earlier, putting Broadway service on the QBL is tricky because it either forces you to interline Broadway, create a terrible merging pattern at 36 St, or have Astoria lose its tph, and currently, the former is probably the best option that NYCT decided to go with. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T to Dyre Avenue Posted June 23, 2019 Share #427 Posted June 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said: It's not. But I'd like to hear some better suggestions. Like I said earlier, putting Broadway service on the QBL is tricky because it either forces you to interline Broadway, create a terrible merging pattern at 36 St, or have Astoria lose its tph, and currently, the former is probably the best option that NYCT decided to go with. But it is possible to run a Broadway/QBL local train without the having to switch from the express tracks to the local between 34th and 42nd. It’s also possible for that same Broadway/QBL train to not have to be the same train that provides local service on 4th Ave in Brooklyn. Run the full time between Astoria and Bay Ridge and either truncate the at Whitehall (or call that service a different letter like P) and run a supplementary R between Bay Ridge and Essex (but significantly more frequently than the previous service did in the 80s). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Ridge Express Posted June 23, 2019 Share #428 Posted June 23, 2019 9 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said: But it is possible to run a Broadway/QBL local train without the having to switch from the express tracks to the local between 34th and 42nd. It’s also possible for that same Broadway/QBL train to not have to be the same train that provides local service on 4th Ave in Brooklyn. Run the full time between Astoria and Bay Ridge and either truncate the at Whitehall (or call that service a different letter like P) and run a supplementary R between Bay Ridge and Essex (but significantly more frequently than the previous service did in the 80s). The first option is possible, but all that would do is move the merge elsewhere. And that proposal (assuming you keep the out of Queens) makes you lose tph in Astoria since only the would run there and would be forced to run around 7.5 tph due to it having to share local Broadway tracks with the , which would not be enough for Astoria demand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T to Dyre Avenue Posted June 23, 2019 Share #429 Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Bay Ridge Express said: The first option is possible, but all that would do is move the merge elsewhere. And that proposal (assuming you keep the out of Queens) makes you lose tph in Astoria since only the would run there and would be forced to run around 7.5 tph due to it having to share local Broadway tracks with the , which would not be enough for Astoria demand. Move which merge elsewhere? There would no longer be an merging with the at 34th. The would now go to 96th St/2nd Ave. Under this scenario, the is fully express from Canal to 57th, seven days a week. I also don’t understand how the would be limited to just 7.5 tph. With the out of the 60th Street Tunnel and Queens, there should be plenty of excess capacity to run more than just 7.5 tph on the . You would then be able to boost the tph on the to make up for the loss of the in Astoria. I can’t see how there wouldn’t be. I read (either further back in this thread or in the Proposals thread) that the sharp curve near the City Hall station limits capacity to 24 tph. I don’t know if it’s true, but let’s assume it is. The would have to operate up to 16.5 tph in order for the to be limited to 7.5 tph. We don’t need to run the that frequently and we definitely can’t turn that many trains at Whitehall. We should easily be able to run at least 14 tph on the between Astoria and Bay Ridge. It’s ironic how back in December 1986, people were commenting the 24-hour service between QBL and the 60th Street Tunnel was “long overdue” at a public meeting at Queens Borough Hall (related to the and switching Queens terminals a few months later). Now three decades later, some of us are saying it’s doing more harm than good (although the hasn’t run 24/7 outside of Bay Ridge since 1990). Edited June 23, 2019 by T to Dyre Avenue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted June 23, 2019 Share #430 Posted June 23, 2019 On City Hall Curve: yes, it is a capacity restriction. Somewhere in the 21-24tph range. But remember, you can turn trains at Canal St -- a relay move to/from City Hall lower would not be difficult, and would allow you to fill whatever capacity deficit is created by the curve further south if needed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted June 23, 2019 Share #431 Posted June 23, 2019 Here's how I would look at it if you're going to De-Interline Broadway : becomes brown and operates at all times between Bay Ridge and Essex Street with scheduled in-service yard runs extended from/to Broadway Junction. remains as it is now except for no late-night shuttle since the in this scenario would cover every station on the shuttle except Whitehall, with anyone specifically looking for there being able to do a same platform transfer to any Broadway local train at DeKalb, Jay-Metrotech or Court Street. Some trains would as needed end and begin at either Whitehall Street or Canal Street becomes the second Broadway Local and all times runs Brighton to Astoria. replaces the on the SAS and runs express Sea Beach-96th Street at all times. This would likely eliminate the need for any merges other the with the in the 60th Street tunnel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R68OnBroadway Posted June 23, 2019 Share #432 Posted June 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said: Here's how I would look at it if you're going to De-Interline Broadway : becomes brown and operates at all times between Bay Ridge and Essex Street with scheduled in-service yard runs extended from/to Broadway Junction. remains as it is now except for no late-night shuttle since the in this scenario would cover every station on the shuttle except Whitehall, with anyone specifically looking for there being able to do a same platform transfer to any Broadway local train at DeKalb, Jay-Metrotech or Court Street. Some trains would as needed end and begin at either Whitehall Street or Canal Street becomes the second Broadway Local and all times runs Brighton to Astoria. replaces the on the SAS and runs express Sea Beach-96th Street at all times. This would likely eliminate the need for any merges other the with the in the 60th Street tunnel. Yeah, because Prince Street doesn’t exist... The amount of people who will turn trunks upside down to avoid a simple fix never ceases to amaze me... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share #433 Posted June 23, 2019 2 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said: Yeah, because Prince Street doesn’t exist... The amount of people who will turn trunks upside down to avoid a simple fix never ceases to amaze me... I'm not quite sure what you mean by this remark... The last time Prince Street interlocking was used regularly (2010-16) was an absolute disaster 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Union Tpke Posted June 23, 2019 Share #434 Posted June 23, 2019 14 minutes ago, Around the Horn said: I'm not quite sure what you mean by this remark... The last time Prince Street interlocking was used regularly (2010-16) was an absolute disaster It is still used on weekends by the and during late nights by the . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share #435 Posted June 23, 2019 20 minutes ago, Union Tpke said: It is still used on weekends by the and during late nights by the . Yeah but that's not regular use. The used it 7 days a week when the was eliminated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Union Tpke Posted June 23, 2019 Share #436 Posted June 23, 2019 Just now, Around the Horn said: Yeah but that's not regular use. The used it 7 days a week when the was eliminated. Our definitions of regular use differ. It is regularly used during late nights and weekends. An interlocking not in regular use would be the interlocking at 34th-Penn Station. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence St Posted June 23, 2019 Share #437 Posted June 23, 2019 47 minutes ago, Around the Horn said: Yeah but that's not regular use. The used it 7 days a week when the was eliminated. Please don't remind me...the delays... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R68OnBroadway Posted June 23, 2019 Share #438 Posted June 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Around the Horn said: I'm not quite sure what you mean by this remark... The last time Prince Street interlocking was used regularly (2010-16) was an absolute disaster He said the would be local on Broadway yet stated the only merge would be between the and at the 11th St cut. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Posted June 23, 2019 Share #439 Posted June 23, 2019 33 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said: He said the would be local on Broadway yet stated the only merge would be between the and at the 11th St cut. I'm done. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Ridge Express Posted June 24, 2019 Share #440 Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said: Move which merge elsewhere? There would no longer be an merging with the at 34th. The would now go to 96th St/2nd Ave. Under this scenario, the is fully express from Canal to 57th, seven days a week. I also don’t understand how the would be limited to just 7.5 tph. With the out of the 60th Street Tunnel and Queens, there should be plenty of excess capacity to run more than just 7.5 tph on the . You would then be able to boost the tph on the to make up for the loss of the in Astoria. I can’t see how there wouldn’t be. I read (either further back in this thread or in the Proposals thread) that the sharp curve near the City Hall station limits capacity to 24 tph. I don’t know if it’s true, but let’s assume it is. The would have to operate up to 16.5 tph in order for the to be limited to 7.5 tph. We don’t need to run the that frequently and we definitely can’t turn that many trains at Whitehall. We should easily be able to run at least 14 tph on the between Astoria and Bay Ridge. It’s ironic how back in December 1986, people were commenting the 24-hour service between QBL and the 60th Street Tunnel was “long overdue” at a public meeting at Queens Borough Hall (related to the and switching Queens terminals a few months later). Now three decades later, some of us are saying it’s doing more harm than good (although the hasn’t run 24/7 outside of Bay Ridge since 1990). For the first part, I thought you were referring to the staying in Queens. And for the second part, I guess you're right. I was not aware that Broadway local could run 21-24 tph. The ideal service pattern would be this then: Bay Ridge-Forest Hills (7.5 tph) Bay Ridge-Bowery (7.5 tph) Whitehall-Astoria (15 tph) and to 96 St/2 Av deinterlined This gives the Broadway local roughly 22.5 tph, and ups the Broadway express capacity as well to about the same, if not more. Edited June 24, 2019 by Bay Ridge Express 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R68OnBroadway Posted June 24, 2019 Share #441 Posted June 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Lex said: I'm done. Am I missing something here? He (Wallyhorse) wrote that the would be the Broadway local to Astoria and didn’t say it would be rerouted via Montague so the I’m assuming it’s still via the bridge. This means the would have to switch from the express to local at Prince (which would just delay service like the 34th junction). That is in no way a reasonable plan. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Posted June 24, 2019 Share #442 Posted June 24, 2019 7 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said: Am I missing something here? He (Wallyhorse) wrote that the would be the Broadway local to Astoria and didn’t say it would be rerouted via Montague so the I’m assuming it’s still via the bridge. This means the would have to switch from the express to local at Prince (which would just delay service like the 34th junction). That is in no way a reasonable plan. I know. The fact that he completely failed to consider a southern merge is why I said it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R68OnBroadway Posted June 24, 2019 Share #443 Posted June 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Lex said: I know. The fact that he completely failed to consider a southern merge is why I said it. Oh ok then lol. I thought you meant that to me since you quoted me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence St Posted June 24, 2019 Share #444 Posted June 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said: For the first part, I thought you were referring to the staying in Queens. And for the second part, I guess you're right. I was not aware that Broadway local could run 21-24 tph. The ideal service pattern would be this then: Bay Ridge-Forest Hills (7.5 tph) Bay Ridge-Bowery (7.5 tph) Whitehall-Astoria (15 tph) and to 96 St/2 Av deinterlined This gives the Broadway local roughly 22.5 tph, and ups the Broadway express capacity as well to about the same, if not more. Correct me if I'm wrong, but why not just move the weekday switching to 57th St instead of 34th St? 34th St interlocking has a low-MPH switch compared to 57th St if I remember correctly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share #445 Posted June 24, 2019 53 minutes ago, Lawrence St said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but why not just move the weekday switching to 57th St instead of 34th St? 34th St interlocking has a low-MPH switch compared to 57th St if I remember correctly. They're both as bad as each other. Moving the merge wouldn't change anything. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted June 24, 2019 Share #446 Posted June 24, 2019 I just don’t understand why people are making this so complicated... The limits on Broadway line capacity are as follows: -Bay Ridge terminal capacity: 20tph or more -Dekalb Avenue junction capacity: 20tph -City Hall Curve capacity: 21-24tph -Astoria terminal capacity: 15tph -Queens Boulevard local capacity: 10tph, 15tph with competent operation at Forest Hills The 20 from Dekalb is easy to sort out: 10tph of and straightrailed up and down Broadway express between 96 and the junction. Putting the northern limits together, we have 25 or 30tph of capacity in Queens today. Run that south, and the first barrier you hit is City Hall. Short turn everything over 20tph at Canal relaying downstairs at City Hall, and run the other 20 through to Bay Ridge. Done. And if/when you want to remove the from Queens Boulevard, you either upgrade Astoria to handle 25-30, or you run an efficient short turn terminal at Queensboro Plaza and have the QB expats turn on the middle track at 39 Ave. It isn’t like those trains would carry air, transfer loads being what they are. This isn’t rocket science, folks. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Ridge Express Posted June 24, 2019 Share #447 Posted June 24, 2019 10 hours ago, Around the Horn said: They're both as bad as each other. Moving the merge wouldn't change anything. Also because wanted to serve 49 St. Unfortunately that does more harm than good. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Ridge Express Posted June 24, 2019 Share #448 Posted June 24, 2019 9 hours ago, RR503 said: I just don’t understand why people are making this so complicated... The limits on Broadway line capacity are as follows: -Bay Ridge terminal capacity: 20tph or more -Dekalb Avenue junction capacity: 20tph -City Hall Curve capacity: 21-24tph -Astoria terminal capacity: 15tph -Queens Boulevard local capacity: 10tph, 15tph with competent operation at Forest Hills The 20 from Dekalb is easy to sort out: 10tph of and straightrailed up and down Broadway express between 96 and the junction. Putting the northern limits together, we have 25 or 30tph of capacity in Queens today. Run that south, and the first barrier you hit is City Hall. Short turn everything over 20tph at Canal relaying downstairs at City Hall, and run the other 20 through to Bay Ridge. Done. And if/when you want to remove the from Queens Boulevard, you either upgrade Astoria to handle 25-30, or you run an efficient short turn terminal at Queensboro Plaza and have the QB expats turn on the middle track at 39 Ave. It isn’t like those trains would carry air, transfer loads being what they are. This isn’t rocket science, folks. What's also not rocket science is the being able to streamline multiple tph during the off-peak hours by terminating alternating trains at 8 Av, 6 Av, and Union Sq and different locations in Brooklyn using even single track operation. Unfortunately, they choose to run 3 tph. Less is always more with the . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence St Posted June 24, 2019 Share #449 Posted June 24, 2019 2 hours ago, Bay Ridge Express said: Also because wanted to serve 49 St. Unfortunately that does more harm than good. But why? 49th St already has the and , why do all this extra non-sense? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bay Ridge Express Posted June 24, 2019 Share #450 Posted June 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Lawrence St said: But why? 49th St already has the and , why do all this extra non-sense? High ridership and it's also apparently a popular spot for Astoria riders, but yes, it is nonsense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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