Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[Trainmaster5]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

When it was extended to Brookdale (whenever that was) I believe service to E 83 Street was discontinued. I don’t remember any branch. 

There was no branch. The Brooklyn Terminal Market was the only terminus at the time. As you pointed out it was moved from the market to Brookdale .

[EastFlatbushLarry]

3 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

There was no branch. The Brooklyn Terminal Market was the only terminus at the time. As you pointed out it was moved from the market to Brookdale .

well...

there was a brief period that the B8 served both the Brooklyn Terminal Market and Brookdale. eventually what happened was that the Brooklyn Terminal Market branch became part-time service with most runs being sent to terminate at Brookdale until they finally eliminated the BTM branch. during this time, the 8 was running out of Ulmer Park. iinm by the time East NY had the B8 (albeit briefly) the BTM branch was gone.

[B35 via Church]

8 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Didn't the B8 have a part time branch to the Brooklyn Terminal Market until 95? IIRC, the Brooklyn bus map labeled the area as East Flatbush. Remsen Village and Paerdegat Basin are subsections of Canarsie I suppose?

The Paerdegats isn't "officially" a neighborhood name, but you will hear locals refer to the street name themed area as such.... But yeah, it's in Canarsie...

With Remsen Village, it depends who you ask whether if it's [a subsection of East Flatbush] or [it's own separate neighborhood] (I personally say the latter).... But the one thing Remsen Village is not, is a subsection of Canarsie....

 

[EastFlatbushLarry]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

With Remsen Village, it depends who you ask whether if it's [a subsection of East Flatbush] or [it's own separate neighborhood]

growing up on east 49th & Tilden, we always looked at Remsen Village as a part of us (East Flatbush) based solely on shared schools/school zones (Meyer Levin, Tilden HS, etc) the closer you get to rockaway pky, they definitely viewed themselves as their own separate entity.

[B35 via Church]

22 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

growing up on east 49th & Tilden, we always looked at Remsen Village as a part of us (East Flatbush) based solely on shared schools/school zones (Meyer Levin, Tilden HS, etc) the closer you get to rockaway pky, they definitely viewed themselves as their own separate entity.

Ah, so you also grew up in the 40's... Interesting... I wonder what part of E. Flatbush @JAzumah hails from..... Anyway. growing up, I used to think East Flatbush on that end, ended at Meyer Levin itself.... Once you crossed Ralph, it always felt like its own separate neighborhood.... But yeah, I won't really trip if someone refers to that area as E. Flatbush.... Now when people start calling areas south of Av. D as being in East Flatbush, I'ma be like yeeeaahh, you goin have to go somewhere else with that noise... Lol....

You know I gotta ask you this as a fellow neighborhood patron..... The Glenwood houses, what neighborhood you got it in? East Flatbush, Canarsie, or Flatlands? Another one of those little debates that pops up. is the western border of this neighborhood (Rogers or Nostrand)....

I look at the boundaries they got this neighborhood as being in on the google map & I cringe every single time.

[Nova Fly Guy]

6 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Ah, so you also grew up in the 40's... Interesting... I wonder what part of E. Flatbush @JAzumah hails from..... Anyway. growing up, I used to think East Flatbush on that end, ended at Meyer Levin itself.... Once you crossed Ralph, it always felt like its own separate neighborhood.... But yeah, I won't really trip if someone refers to that area as E. Flatbush.... Now when people start calling areas south of Av. D as being in East Flatbush, I'ma be like yeeeaahh, you goin have to go somewhere else with that noise... Lol....

You know I gotta ask you this as a fellow neighborhood patron..... The Glenwood houses, what neighborhood you got it in? East Flatbush, Canarsie, or Flatlands? Another one of those little debates that pops up. is the western border of this neighborhood (Rogers or Nostrand)....

I look at the boundaries they got this neighborhood as being in on the google map & I cringe every single time.

As a Canarsien Glenwood is considered East Flatbush as for Remsen Village only canarsie thing about it is the zip code.

[Trainmaster5]

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Ah, so you also grew up in the 40's... Interesting... I wonder what part of E. Flatbush @JAzumah hails from..... Anyway. growing up, I used to think East Flatbush on that end, ended at Meyer Levin itself.... Once you crossed Ralph, it always felt like its own separate neighborhood.... But yeah, I won't really trip if someone refers to that area as E. Flatbush.... Now when people start calling areas south of Av. D as being in East Flatbush, I'ma be like yeeeaahh, you goin have to go somewhere else with that noise... Lol....

You know I gotta ask you this as a fellow neighborhood patron..... The Glenwood houses, what neighborhood you got it in? East Flatbush, Canarsie, or Flatlands? Another one of those little debates that pops up. is the western border of this neighborhood (Rogers or Nostrand)....

I look at the boundaries they got this neighborhood as being in on the google map & I cringe every single time.

I think it’s a generational thing with the neighborhood names. Ask BrooklynBus where we went to school . PS 268 and Winthrop JHS were considered East Flatbush although the Post Office was Rugby. Wingate High School was in East Flatbush although it was also called “Pigtown” as a derogatory name. I lived in Flatbush , now called Prospect-Lefferts by the later residents. Our borders were the west side of New York Avenue to Flatbush Avenue and also included the east side of Ocean Avenue across from Prospect Park and Empire Boulevard down past Erasmus Hall and included 2 post offices, Lefferts on Empire and Nostrand and Flatbush station on Church and Bedford. Kings County and Downstate were considered Flatbush in my day. Your Glenwood Houses comment illustrated the problem directly. Zip code (post office) or what ? We also need something else that makes sense. My aunt lived on Marion Street at Rockaway Avenue, I lived on Vermont and Flatlands, and my supervisor lived in Starrett when it was new. We all had the same post office back then, 11207, East New York station at Pennsylvania and Atlantic. Damn sure wasn’t the same neighborhood as the post office name. On that end we used the Canarsie office on Flatlands. I had relatives in Queens back then and their neighborhood names were just as mysterious as my Brooklyn ones. Try Google Maps, Apple Maps or Bing on a lark and compare the results. Just my experience. Carry on.

[BrooklynBus]

29 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I think it’s a generational thing with the neighborhood names. Ask BrooklynBus where we went to school . PS 268 and Winthrop JHS were considered East Flatbush although the Post Office was Rugby. Wingate High School was in East Flatbush although it was also called “Pigtown” as a derogatory name. I lived in Flatbush , now called Prospect-Lefferts by the later residents. Our borders were the west side of New York Avenue to Flatbush Avenue and also included the east side of Ocean Avenue across from Prospect Park and Empire Boulevard down past Erasmus Hall and included 2 post offices, Lefferts on Empire and Nostrand and Flatbush station on Church and Bedford. Kings County and Downstate were considered Flatbush in my day. Your Glenwood Houses comment illustrated the problem directly. Zip code (post office) or what ? We also need something else that makes sense. My aunt lived on Marion Street at Rockaway Avenue, I lived on Vermont and Flatlands, and my supervisor lived in Starrett when it was new. We all had the same post office back then, 11207, East New York station at Pennsylvania and Atlantic. Damn sure wasn’t the same neighborhood as the post office name. On that end we used the Canarsie office on Flatlands. I had relatives in Queens back then and their neighborhood names were just as mysterious as my Brooklyn ones. Try Google Maps, Apple Maps or Bing on a lark and compare the results. Just my experience. Carry on.

Pigtown was not a derogatory name. It just referred to the number of Pig farms in the area. After WWII when much of the area was developed, Pigtown was not a good selling name. So the real estate agents renamed the area Dodgertown. When I asked my elementary schoolmates where they lived, many said Dodgertown. 
 

But when the Dodgers left in 1957, the name Dodgertown soon faded and the western half just became part of East Flatbush and the Eastern part was renamed Wingate for the newly built high school in 1954. 

[EastFlatbushLarry]

9 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The Glenwood houses, what neighborhood you got it in? East Flatbush, Canarsie, or Flatlands?

i can't lie, having gone to PS 135, Roy H. Mann & South Shore (and having family that currently lives in Glenwood) that area is TECHNICALLY the flatlands. however, most people in Glenwood (at least the older generations) will claim East Flatbush based on their own family connections and the street beefs that the 40's and 50's share against the 90's (and now the 80's) the newer generations try to tie themselves to Canarsie, but that's total bull IMO.

as you know, the thing about these areas is that there isn't much of a drastic difference economically or culturally. we all went to the same schools (the multitude that exist in those areas) and we all have family that live in and around these areas. to this day, i have family (mother's & father's) that all live within relative walking distance from each other, from Troy & Foster, to Albany & Farragut, to 56th & H, ect. i have plenty of schoolmates & friends/family that can say the same thing, and we've all had these debates in school or on the block, regarding what constitutes as E. Flatbush or not. Joey Badass, the rapper/actor, claims E. Flatbush, even though he grew up on New York Avenue, which to some of us that doesn't count at all, but ultimately, it truly depends on who you ask. IMO the lines have always been blurred based upon what block you grew up on and what schools you went to, however I do have my own definition of what the borderlines are.

[Nova Fly Guy]

1 hour ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i can't lie, having gone to PS 135, Roy H. Mann & South Shore (and having family that currently lives in Glenwood) that area is TECHNICALLY the flatlands. however, most people in Glenwood (at least the older generations) will claim East Flatbush based on their own family connections and the street beefs that the 40's and 50's share against the 90's (and now the 80's) the newer generations try to tie themselves to Canarsie, but that's total bull IMO.

as you know, the thing about these areas is that there isn't much of a drastic difference economically or culturally. we all went to the same schools (the multitude that exist in those areas) and we all have family that live in and around these areas. to this day, i have family (mother's & father's) that all live within relative walking distance from each other, from Troy & Foster, to Albany & Farragut, to 56th & H, ect. i have plenty of schoolmates & friends/family that can say the same thing, and we've all had these debates in school or on the block, regarding what constitutes as E. Flatbush or not. Joey Badass, the rapper/actor, claims E. Flatbush, even though he grew up on New York Avenue, which to some of us that doesn't count at all, but ultimately, it truly depends on who you ask. IMO the lines have always been blurred based upon what block you grew up on and what schools you went to, however I do have my own definition of what the borderlines are.

The flatlands start south of ave H /West of E 56 Street. The intersection of Ralph & Glenwood is the border of Canarsie/ East Flatbush.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Nova Fly Guy

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

But when the Dodgers left in 1957, the name Dodgertown soon faded and the western half just became part of East Flatbush and the Eastern part was renamed Wingate for the newly built high school in 1954. 

Instead of these realtors/REA's conjuring up all these dumb ass "trendy" acronyms for neighborhoods, I'd like for Wingate (as a neighborhood/name) to come back..... AFAIC, nothing north of KCH is East Flatbush.... I've heard news reporters in the past say, so-and-so was rushed to Kings County Hospital in the Crown Heights section of Brooklyn.... And I'd always say to myself, it's not Crown Heights....

1 hour ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i can't lie, having gone to PS 135, Roy H. Mann & South Shore (and having family that currently lives in Glenwood) that area is TECHNICALLY the flatlands. however, most people in Glenwood (at least the older generations) will claim East Flatbush based on their own family connections and the street beefs that the 40's and 50's share against the 90's (and now the 80's) the newer generations try to tie themselves to Canarsie, but that's total bull IMO.

as you know, the thing about these areas is that there isn't much of a drastic difference economically or culturally. we all went to the same schools (the multitude that exist in those areas) and we all have family that live in and around these areas. to this day, i have family (mother's & father's) that all live within relative walking distance from each other, from Troy & Foster, to Albany & Farragut, to 56th & H, ect. i have plenty of schoolmates & friends/family that can say the same thing, and we've all had these debates in school or on the block, regarding what constitutes as E. Flatbush or not. Joey Badass, the rapper/actor, claims E. Flatbush, even though he grew up on New York Avenue, which to some of us that doesn't count at all, but ultimately, it truly depends on who you ask. IMO the lines have always been blurred based upon what block you grew up on and what schools you went to, however I do have my own definition of what the borderlines are.

So do I (have my own declaration of what boundaries this neighborhood constitutes)... This neighborhood is simply not remotely as big as all these maps & other mediums have it as being... Just got through mentioning Wingate (the neighborhood) being folded into East Flatbush; which magically happened sometime in the early 2000's... Flatlands apparently has a hard northern boundary, Canarsie has a hard western boundary, and Midwood has a hard eastern boundary.... Everything in-between those aforementioned hard boundaries somehow gets lumped in as being in East Flatbush..... Amazing..... Got the got damn JUNCTION as being in East Flatbush..... Got me CTFU.....  I mean, you just gotta like how some neighborhoods have hard boundaries, while others have malleable/questionable boundaries....

As for the Glenwood Houses, 100% agreed..... It's not Canarsie & it's not East Flatbush either.... Canarsie's hard western boundary is Ralph, and even if we go by the whole north-of-the-tracks definition/boundary for East Flatbush, that would eliminate East Flatbush, because those projects are clearly south of the old ROW.....

Edited September 4, 2023 by B35 via Church

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I think it’s a generational thing with the neighborhood names. Ask BrooklynBus where we went to school . PS 268 and Winthrop JHS were considered East Flatbush although the Post Office was Rugby. Wingate High School was in East Flatbush although it was also called “Pigtown” as a derogatory name. I lived in Flatbush , now called Prospect-Lefferts by the later residents. Our borders were the west side of New York Avenue to Flatbush Avenue and also included the east side of Ocean Avenue across from Prospect Park and Empire Boulevard down past Erasmus Hall and included 2 post offices, Lefferts on Empire and Nostrand and Flatbush station on Church and Bedford. Kings County and Downstate were considered Flatbush in my day. Your Glenwood Houses comment illustrated the problem directly. Zip code (post office) or what ? We also need something else that makes sense. My aunt lived on Marion Street at Rockaway Avenue, I lived on Vermont and Flatlands, and my supervisor lived in Starrett when it was new. We all had the same post office back then, 11207, East New York station at Pennsylvania and Atlantic. Damn sure wasn’t the same neighborhood as the post office name. On that end we used the Canarsie office on Flatlands. I had relatives in Queens back then and their neighborhood names were just as mysterious as my Brooklyn ones. Try Google Maps, Apple Maps or Bing on a lark and compare the results. Just my experience. Carry on.

Definitely generational.... The neighborhood boundary vs. zip code dynamic is a very good point.... While some people tend to, I personally don't go by zip codes when referencing/referring to some neighborhood.... It obfuscates things...

Prospect - Lefferts Gardens... I swear, before they combined the first renditions of the old B47 & B62 to form today's B43, I have never heard of a Prospect-Lefferts Gardens.... On the destination signage was the first time I've ever seen any type of a reference to it.... Growing up, the area around Prospect Park was considered Prospect Heights.... Now they got Prospect Heights panning no further south than Eastern Pkwy - which is funny, because Prostitute Heights & Clara-bortion.... I meant, Prospect Heights & Clara Barton high schools are both south of Eastern Pkwy - but are still advertised as being in Prospect Heights....

Speaking of boundary shifts, although they are attempting to break up East Flatbush, being perfectly honest, I don't at all like this Little Haiti & Little Caribbean crap they're trying to push..... Even the addresses on these food delivery apps are literally saying ".....Little Caribbean NY, 11203" ... I have my own conspiracy theory as to why that's being done, but that's neither here, nor there.

[Q43LTD]

All this talk about neighborhoods makes me want to reopen my thread from a few years back lol

[Ex696]

What about the  routing changes in Sunset Park? I don't really know much about the this part of the B11 west of 53 Street  and according to the Existing Conditions Report, there seems to be a decent amount of ridership there.

[JAzumah]

On 9/4/2023 at 8:06 AM, B35 via Church said:

I wonder what part of E. Flatbush @JAzumah hails from

Near the Bermuda Triangle of Kings Highway, Remsen Avenue, and Linden Boulevard.

I think that the eastern edge of East Flatbush is basically Remsen Avenue, but if you want to include that Popeyes at Church Av & E 92 St in the neighborhood, I'll take it.

[BrooklynBus]

3 hours ago, JAzumah said:

Near the Bermuda Triangle of Kings Highway, Remsen Avenue, and Linden Boulevard.

I think that the eastern edge of East Flatbush is basically Remsen Avenue, but if you want to include that Popeyes at Church Av & E 92 St in the neighborhood, I'll take it.

East Flatbush extends to East 98 Street north of Linden.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

20 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

East Flatbush extends to East 98 Street north of Linden.

What does the local Community Board say about the boundaries of East Flatbush?

[Nova Fly Guy]

1 hour ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

What does the local Community Board say about the boundaries of East Flatbush?

The official neighborhood start at E 98 and Linden going north to East New York Av running down Empire, West to Nostrand, south to Av D, Back East to Linden & E 98.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Nova Fly Guy

[BrooklynBus]

26 minutes ago, Nova Fly Guy said:

The official neighborhood start at E 98 and Linden going north to East New York Av running down Empire, West to Nostrand, south to Av D, Back East to Linden & E 98.

My only disagreement is I would say the western boundary is NY Ave not Nostrand. 

[B35 via Church]

On 9/6/2023 at 5:25 AM, JAzumah said:

Near the Bermuda Triangle of Kings Highway, Remsen Avenue, and Linden Boulevard.

I think that the eastern edge of East Flatbush is basically Remsen Avenue, but if you want to include that Popeyes at Church Av & E 92 St in the neighborhood, I'll take it.

Ah, so you're closer to Brookdale then.... I'm right there, close to the ass end of KCH.....

Lol, that popeyes on the corner of Church/Linden.... See them seagulls & pigeons fighting for scraps every morning going to work (I dunno why they leave that dumpster area open like that)... lmfao.... Anyway, that little pocket along Church b/w Linden & 98th is part of E. Flatbush (so, we gotta claim that jank ass chicken spot on the corner of Church/Rockaway Pkwy also) ....

You'd be hard pressed to hear a Brownsville patron say that Church/Linden is a part of their neighborhood.... Matter fact, I've never heard anyone make the case for it.

13 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

My only disagreement is I would say the western boundary is NY Ave not Nostrand. 

So you consider Nostrand & Church a part of Flatbush? Nah; that's like saying Coney Island av. is the borderline between Brighton Beach & Manhattan Beach.....

I have to concur with whatever consensus says that Nostrand is the border between Flatbush & E. Flatbush..... Usually, the disagreement between folks in this neighborhood as to what the western border is, is with either Rogers or Nostrand....

Edited September 8, 2023 by B35 via Church

[BrooklynBus]

54 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Ah, so you're closer to Brookdale then.... I'm right there, close to the ass end of KCH.....

Lol, that popeyes on the corner of Church/Linden.... See them seagulls & pigeons fighting for scraps every morning going to work (I dunno why they leave that dumpster area open like that)... lmfao.... Anyway, that little pocket along Church b/w Linden & 98th is part of E. Flatbush (so, we gotta claim that jank ass chicken spot on the corner of Church/Rockaway Pkwy also) ....

You'd be hard pressed to hear a Brownsville patron say that Church/Linden is a part of their neighborhood.... Matter fact, I've never heard anyone make the case for it.

So you consider Nostrand & Church a part of Flatbush? Nah; that's like saying Coney Island av. is the borderline between Brighton Beach & Manhattan Beach.....

I have to concur with whatever consensus says that Nostrand is the border between Flatbush & E. Flatbush..... Usually, the disagreement between folks in this neighborhood as to what the western border is, is with either Rogers or Nostrand....

I don’t see your analogy with Brighton and Manhattan Beach. Part of my rationale is that the portion east of New York Avenue was built later and Lincoln Road, Parkside Avenue, and Martense Street all end at New York Avenue. When I was a kid, my father told me NY Avenue was the border, and it seemed to make sense. 

[B35 via Church]

32 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I don’t see your analogy with Brighton and Manhattan Beach. Part of my rationale is that the portion east of New York Avenue was built later and Lincoln Road, Parkside Avenue, and Martense Street all end at New York Avenue. When I was a kid, my father told me NY Avenue was the border, and it seemed to make sense. 

Nostrand/Church isn't Flatbush, like Brighton Beach/Coney Island av's isn't Manhattan Beach.... You got the analogy, it just isn't in tune with your claim.

Edited September 8, 2023 by B35 via Church

[Trainmaster5]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Nostrand/Church isn't Flatbush, like Brighton Beach/Coney Island av's isn't Manhattan Beach.... You got the analogy, it just isn't in tune with your claim.

Actually BrooklynBus was taught the same thing I was told back in the day. The east side of New York Avenue was the border between East Flatbush and Flatbush. That was also the borderline for our high schools. Erasmus Hall was the west side of New York Avenue and Wingate was the east side back then. Kings County Hospital and Downstate were both East Flatbush. A generational thing . I think that I mentioned that my first apartment was on East 98th St and Livonia, the west side. The fire house was directly across the street from me. It was in Brownsville and my apartment was in East Flatbush. That was according to the FDNY, NYPD and the post office and my mailman. Like I said it’s all generational. BTW what he mentioned about the three streets that dead end at New York Avenue was also what we learned in our neighborhood. Difference is that Parkside Avenue was known as Robinson Street by the real old timers in the neighborhood. Parkside ended at Flatbush Avenue way before I was born. The exit at the Winthrop Street station on the s/b platform was tiled Robinson Street until about 2000 or so. My memories. Carry on.

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Actually BrooklynBus was taught the same thing I was told back in the day. The east side of New York Avenue was the border between East Flatbush and Flatbush. That was also the borderline for our high schools. Erasmus Hall was the west side of New York Avenue and Wingate was the east side back then. Kings County Hospital and Downstate were both East Flatbush. A generational thing . I think that I mentioned that my first apartment was on East 98th St and Livonia, the west side. The fire house was directly across the street from me. It was in Brownsville and my apartment was in East Flatbush. That was according to the FDNY, NYPD and the post office and my mailman. Like I said it’s all generational. BTW what he mentioned about the three streets that dead end at New York Avenue was also what we learned in our neighborhood. Difference is that Parkside Avenue was known as Robinson Street by the real old timers in the neighborhood. Parkside ended at Flatbush Avenue way before I was born. The exit at the Winthrop Street station on the s/b platform was tiled Robinson Street until about 2000 or so. My memories. Carry on.

The only thing I'll say to this, is that I'm not arguing the past (as if to say it was never the case), I'm arguing the present..... I don't/didn't disagree with your earlier point about these things being generational, because hell, there are certain neighborhoods today that are either getting smaller, and/or having subsections being carved out of them....

The perfecr example I always point to is Manhattan's Little Italy.... I think it's only like one or two blocks now.... Most of the old neighborhood has been swallowed up/encapsulated by Chinatown... I'm looking at how google maps designates the area, and I can say without a doubt that today, Little Italy does not pan as far east as the Bowery & pan as far west as Lafayette..... Not even remotely.

[Robert Spire]

41 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

The only thing I'll say to this, is that I'm not arguing the past (as if to say it was never the case), I'm arguing the present..... I don't/didn't disagree with your earlier point about these things being generational, because hell, there are certain neighborhoods today that are either getting smaller, and/or having subsections being carved out of them....

The perfecr example I always point to is Manhattan's Little Italy.... I think it's only like one or two blocks now.... Most of the old neighborhood has been swallowed up/encapsulated by Chinatown... I'm looking at how google maps designates the area, and I can say without a doubt that today, Little Italy does not pan as far east as the Bowery & pan as far west as Lafayette..... Not even remotely.

Even Chinatown is starting to be swallowed up due to gentrification.