Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[Lex]

5 minutes ago, NY1635 said:

The MTA could just keep the codes but renumber them similar to Cali. 1-88-Locals 83-100-Limited and 100 and above Express. 

QT sounds more like cutie. Did a woman right the code?

The should build the expressways similar to Cali. The Pasadena Expressway and Oil Fields are still my favorite story.

Moses is a gifted amateur but those Oil Execs are professional salesmen.

The state is trying to figure out a way to get rid of Moses's name since Long Islands hate him.

They liked Vanderbilt's Private Motor Parkway system better since they were made for personal use and drag racing.

Long Island is famous for racing culture, we can't have that cause it scares locals. 

What.

[NY1635]

2 minutes ago, Lex said:

What.

It's an open secret that long islanders hate Robert Moses. He's pretty much big name city planner who bought land for cheap and relied on Government.

Most land in Nassau was made by church planters and millionaries from Europe. 

Stewart Avenue is named after A. Stewart, who bought land and developed it. County Life Press is a subsection named after a publishing company.

Hicksville is name after a guy named after a Quaker Preacher named Valentine Hicks. It was farm land before it got converted to a suburb. 

[Future ENY OP]

49 minutes ago, NY1635 said:

It's an open secret that long islanders hate Robert Moses. He's pretty much big name city planner who bought land for cheap and relied on Government.

Most land in Nassau was made by church planters and millionaries from Europe. 

Stewart Avenue is named after A. Stewart, who bought land and developed it. County Life Press is a subsection named after a publishing company.

Hicksville is name after a guy named after a Quaker Preacher named Valentine Hicks. It was farm land before it got converted to a suburb. 

Does this have bearing with this re-design plan?

[Lex]

12 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Does this have bearing with this re-design plan?

Nope.

[BrooklynBus]

On 12/30/2019 at 8:55 PM, Brillant93 said:

Surprised they cut the Q53. I wonder why though? Was it not getting its service it needed from that portion of Far Rockaway? Also I see they are straightening out the Q58 with its routing. I wonder where is the B15 going to go now since its being replaced by the Q5? 

My guess is that it will operate non-stop along Linden Blvd or maybe make one stop.

[BrooklynBus]

On 12/31/2019 at 12:49 AM, MHV9218 said:

Not even getting into the routes, let's just note how dumb it is to #1) rename routes that have had their current numbers for decades and decades and #2) release the entire report with the useless and confusing "QT" nomenclature that they've explicitly stated will not be used in the final. If you're not going to use the T, don't put in the T. This isn't rocket science. I don't know why they had the reinvent the wheel on the naming, and the Manhattan-centric numbering system sort of misses the point with how Queens works. Queens isn't a tourist borough – at least not most of it, where these buses are ridden. Nobody's thinking route 1-2-3 working Eastward from the city. These numbers have been there for decades, mostly coming from original streetcar and bus lines. Don't fix what isn't broken. That could've been the very simplest part.

They had to use the temporary QT in the report since they are reusing bus numbers for different routes. There is a new Q38 for example so they had to call it QT 38 temporarily, otherwise you wouldn’t know if they are talking about the current route or the proposed route. 

[B35 via Church]

10 hours ago, paulrivera said:

Express buses aside, we in the Bronx came off easy.

This does reek of a low-key "2010 doomsday" scenario tho I'm not gonna lie.

We shouldn't have to kick and scream to keep decent bus service and keep the from making every bloody bus route have 125% loading guidelines and having stops every half mile like the subway. If every bus route has the same loading guidelines as the subway, you're just going to end up losing everyone that's not a 9-to-5-er.

Anytime the MTA comes out with any changes regarding bus service, I'm expecting cuts (whether subtle or overt)... Call it pessimistic or even fatalistic, but I'll continue to not put anything past this agency for as long as they're in existence...

I don't pay attention to anything loading guideline related (with the MTA), because they don't follow them anyway....

10 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

@B35 via Church My guess is they get off the Q22 at Cross Bay because they have the option of the Q52 & Q53, as opposed to just the Q52 in Arverne.

They don't have mutual stops in the Rockaways...

The last NB stop of the Q52 in the Rockaways is way over on B. 91st.... The last stop of the Q53 in the Rockaways is over on B. 96th....

People are taking WB Q22's to Cross Bay Pkwy, crossing the street & walking over the short block for the Q53..... They're either doing it because they need service past QCM, or as @NewFlyer 230 stated, there's more service on the Q53 (IMO, the main reason most of those people that do that, are doing it)....

17 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

My guess is that it will operate non-stop along Linden Blvd or maybe make one stop.

My concern is that they're going to do that to the B35 (running them along Linden, en route to JFK) & have the B15 stop dead at the hospital...

Edited January 1, 2020 by B35 via Church

[Lawrence St]

The whole Q52/53 situation is a mess. They've basically reduced BPH because of the loss of one variant, and would rather keep the Q52 (where riders all ready have frequent enough service) and cut the Q53 where it has the most ridership out of both variants and dosent have a reliable and frequent subway service to Manhattan. Sometimes these ideas are just plain stupid.

And I mean, the QT88 looks good on paper, but in reality they've basically closed or added another transfer point between South Queens and Elmhurst, and will make a lot of riders crowd onto the at Rockaway Blvd or utilize the QT52SBS.

They should have left the Q11 & Q21 as it is and have the Q21 be the replacement for the Q52SBS in the Rockaways in my opinion.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Lawrence St

[BrooklynBus]

16 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Duh! Makes perfect sense. 

Yeah for sure Some of these new routes travel pretty far into Brooklyn. Pertaining to the QT5 just trying to get into the head of the planners just thinking about the new transfer  options that would open for Flatbush,East Flatbush and Brownsville riders. Im sure there won't be to many people traveling across Church from extreme western neighborhoods (Ie Sunset park) for a connection to the QT5 but it opens up options for ENY,Ozone Park as well as points beyond for riders on the eastern end of the B35 and even the B8 and B15 if they Survive as is with the Brooklyn redesign. There had to be some type of data from current stats that hinted that service should be extended into Brownsville. Just thinking.

Why do assume there had to be data? I think it was just done to set up the B15 to operate on Linden non stop to the airport to make the route quicker.

[BrooklynBus]

12 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Anytime the MTA comes out with any changes regarding bus service, I'm expecting cuts (whether subtle or overt)... Call it pessimistic or even fatalistic, but I'll continue to not put anything past this agency for as long as they're in existence...

I don't pay attention to anything loading guideline related (with the MTA), because they don't follow them anyway....

They don't have mutual stops in the Rockaways...

The last NB stop of the Q52 in the Rockaways is way over on B. 91st.... The last stop of the Q53 in the Rockaways is over on B. 96th....

People are taking WB Q22's to Cross Bay Pkwy, crossing the street & walking over the short block for the Q53..... They're either doing it because they need service past QCM, or as @NewFlyer 230 stated, there's more service on the Q53 (IMO, the main reason most of those people that do that, are doing it)....

My concern is that they're going to do that to the B35 (running them along Linden, en route to JFK) & have the B15 stop dead at the hospital...

As you know, I support extension of the Church Avenue route to the airport, but don’t see how they can end the B15 at the hospital. Politically, they have to keep airport service running from Bed Stuy even if they extend Church Avenue service. 

[B35 via Church]

14 hours ago, aemoreira81 said:

Off the bat, I see it as a bad idea to end all routes on Woodhaven short of Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Avenue. The proposed headways north of there are not sufficient to handle the crowds, and the subway alternative is not ADA compliant. I would be surprised if this remains in the final form. If anything, I would propose swapping the Q52 and Q53 terminals on the south end (and also shorten the Q. The only "slow" portion of the route is north of Whitney. The proposed QT63 would be swamped with transfer traffic as the subway is not an option for Elmhurst Hospital for many bus riders, nor can the Q63 in proposed headways even come close to handling transfer traffic. Those Q53 buses are arriving with a full-seated load into Elmhurst Hospital due south.

I also see no bus service to the central terminal area as a bad idea, given that I don't see the PANYNJ increasing bus services to compensate for the loss of all MTA services to T5. On weekends when the AirTrain is scheduled for a total shutdown, those shuttle buses sometimes cannot be accessed because of crowds.

Also, there should be a Little Neck Parkway service at least for network coverage. The n6 would also need to become open-door along Hempstead Avenue to make up for removed Hempstead Avenue local service.

What are you suggesting be shortened?

Anyway, as stated in another thread relatively recently, buses serving Federal Circle is only a temporary measure...

If NICE does that to the n6, they're fools... They have their own problems with the n6.... They have no obligation to make up for the MTA's f***ups...

3 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

The whole Q52/53 situation is a mess. They've basically reduced BPH because of the loss of one variant, and would rather keep the Q52 (where riders all ready have frequent enough service) and cut the Q53 where it has the most ridership out of both variants and dosent have a reliable and frequent subway service to Manhattan. Sometimes these ideas are just plain stupid.

And I mean, the QT88 looks good on paper, but in reality they've basically closed or added another transfer point between South Queens and Elmhurst, and will make a lot of riders crowd onto the at Rockaway Blvd or utilize the QT52SBS.

They should have left the Q11 & Q21 as it is and have the Q21 be the replacement for the Q52SBS in the Rockaways in my opinion.

The QT88 doesn't even look good on paper.... I'd like to hear a Howard Beach, Old Howard Beach, Hamilton Beach, and/or Lindenwood resident's take on that route....

As for the Q52/53, the end goal was always to have the Woodhaven SBS stop dead at QB/QCM..... What's going to happen in the Rockaways is the reverse of what's going on now - that is, taking the QT22 (from the west) to the Q52 to get to mainland Queens.... Instead of simply cutting the Q53 back to QCM, they're suggesting discontinuing the whole Q53 in a further attempt to prove that the creation of the Q52 was justified.... Remember, the Q53 had service taken away from it to create the Q52... This is the coup de grâce.

They did everything possible to keep the Q21 around & eventually found something that stuck (remember, the Q21 used to end in Rockaway Park).... Now they're kicking the Q21 out (as this QT83), to terminate on the fringe of Lindenwood (serving much of nobody, directly) to promote a double-edged feeder route (QT88).... Lunacy.

1 minute ago, BrooklynBus said:

As you know, I support extension of the Church Avenue route to the airport, but don’t see how they can end the B15 at the hospital. Politically, they have to keep airport service running from Bed Stuy even if they extend Church Avenue service. 

They'll find some way to have this QT5 & the B15 end at the hospital.....

[RailRunRob]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

Why do assume there had to be data? I think it was just done to set up the B15 to operate on Linden non stop to the airport to make the route quicker.

How do you run a business, offer a product or measure cost without data? What you're saying maybe true but you already on step five you skipped a few trust steps 1-4 was everything from road ops to ridership and mileage all before that decision is made for anything. To your point how do you measure if somethings quicker without data? Im I missing something?

Edited January 1, 2020 by RailRunRob

[B35 via Church]

3 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

How do you run a business, offer a product or measure cost without data? What you're saying maybe true but you already on step five you skipped a few trust steps 1-4 was everything from road ops to ridership and mileage all before that decision is made for anything. To your point how do you measure if somethings quicker without data? Im I missing something?

The MTA's been doing it for decades.

[RailRunRob]

6 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

The MTA's been doing it for decades.

Even if that's true we should still understand the correct way of doing it which is with data and feedback. Or we're no better then folks at the MTA  were pointing out.

Edited January 1, 2020 by RailRunRob

[B35 via Church]

2 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Even if that's true we should still understand the correct way of doing it which is with data and feedback. Or we're no better then folks of at the MTA  were pointing out.

The problem isn't that we don't understand.... Nobody here is disagreeing that data & feedback shouldn't have a place in making an informed decision.... You're trying to refute something that's not being argued....

BrooklynBus' point more or less is that the MTA does what it wants - and he's spot on with that.

[LTA1992]

I've noticed something about the Light Green routes.

All but three have proposed headways of 30 minutes or better. Most are also located within walking distance of either another light green route making similar transfers, or a higher frequency and higher speed route. So there are usually alternatives within 5-10 minutes of walking.

I think I'm starting to fully understand and appreciate the methodology behind it.

[RailRunRob]

2 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

The problem isn't that we don't understand.... Nobody here is disagreeing that data & feedback shouldn't have a place in making an informed decision.... You're trying to refute something that's not being argued....

BrooklynBus' point more or less is that the MTA does what it wants - and he's spot on with that.

I guess ultimately my issue is trying to process how much of the comment is personal preference or perception especially in a thread of people that have personal interest and passion for the bus network. If someone has a passion for buses or its a hobby. Could they be blinded by there personal views? Or are they looking at it from an executive business POV? Which any bus operation is it's customer and market-driven, competitive and needs to more focused on efficiency. This particular topic kinda hits home my company we build tracking and customized vehicle platforms a little different from this but we understand the cost and things (KPI)'s that our clients measure success. How many miles ' between breakdown?, Fuel efficiency and cost? On-time performance? They count every penny as they should it adds up over time and with a fleet of trucks or Buses. So I'm looking through this redesign I can't help but process it through operations and numbers pov as well. Void of anything personal bc the goal of a bus route is to move and attract people. So I'm not saying you don't have a point with the MTA but for me the next step is to ask how you came to that conclusion? There's absolutely a unique point of view from being on the street and seeing it firsthand. But there's also an equally unique situation when you're the person having to go over the budget and numbers and balance it and making the hard call. The bottom line it'd be amazing to have detail rider stats for current service to compare measure against the proposals That would take most of the guesswork out. But that's my angle.

[LTA1992]

On 12/31/2019 at 9:05 AM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

I did read it. My neighborhood has only QT15 (Rapid) and QT30*/QT31 (Rush) with no local counterpart, so...

• From 46th/Utopia to 46th/169th is 0.3 mile.
• From 46th/169th to 46th/162nd is 0.4 mile.
• From 46th/162nd to Flushing Hospital is 0.6 mile. 

 

Again, it is disingenuous at best to discuss populations within 0.25 mile of bus stops while spacing bus stops more than 0.25 mile apart.

 

* QT30 non-stop section is shown on 46th Avenue in the redesign document but on Northern Blvd in the Remix map.

THEN. YOU. ADD. MORE. AS. NEEDED.

The fine print literally says these are generalized locations listed and are subject to change. If people want it, they'll ask for it.

Simple as that.

[LTA1992]

33 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

I guess ultimately my issue is trying to process how much of the comment is personal preference or perception especially in a thread of people that have personal interest and passion for the bus network. If someone has a passion for buses or its a hobby. Could they be blinded by there personal views? Or are they looking at it from an executive business POV? Which any bus operation is it's customer and market-driven, competitive and needs to more focused on efficiency. This particular topic kinda hits home my company we build tracking and customized vehicle platforms a little different from this but we understand the cost and things (KPI)'s that our clients measure success. How many miles ' between breakdown?, Fuel efficiency and cost? On-time performance? They count every penny as they should it adds up over time and with a fleet of trucks or Buses. So I'm looking through this redesign I can't help but process it through operations and numbers pov as well. Void of anything personal bc the goal of a bus route is to move and attract people. So I'm not saying you don't have a point with the MTA but for me the next step is to ask how you came to that conclusion? There's absolutely a unique point of view from being on the street and seeing it firsthand. But there's also an equally unique situation when you're the person having to go over the budget and numbers and balance it and making the hard call. The bottom line it'd be amazing to have detail rider stats for current service to compare measure against the proposals That would take most of the guesswork out. But that's my angle.

And this is why we need OMNY. The MTA would finally get accurate data on where everybody is going and this sort of thing will be far easier.

[RailRunRob]

12 minutes ago, LTA1992 said:

And this is why we need OMNY. The MTA would finally get accurate data on where everybody is going and this sort of thing will be far easier.

100% as a transit system you have to be Technology and data driven now and moving forward.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, RailRunRob said:

I guess ultimately my issue is trying to process how much of the comment is personal preference or perception especially in a thread of people that have personal interest and passion for the bus network. If someone has a passion for buses or its a hobby. Could they be blinded by there personal views? Or are they looking at it from an executive business POV? Which any bus operation is it's customer and market-driven, competitive and needs to more focused on efficiency. This particular topic kinda hits home my company we build tracking and customized vehicle platforms a little different from this but we understand the cost and things (KPI)'s that our clients measure success. How many miles ' between breakdown?, Fuel efficiency and cost? On-time performance? They count every penny as they should it adds up over time and with a fleet of trucks or Buses. So I'm looking through this redesign I can't help but process it through operations and numbers pov as well. Void of anything personal bc the goal of a bus route is to move and attract people. So I'm not saying you don't have a point with the MTA but for me the next step is to ask how you came to that conclusion? There's absolutely a unique point of view from being on the street and seeing it firsthand. But there's also an equally unique situation when you're the person having to go over the budget and numbers and balance it and making the hard call. The bottom line it'd be amazing to have detail rider stats for current service to compare measure against the proposals That would take most of the guesswork out. But that's my angle.

You have a thread full of people that have a personal interest & passion for the bus network because they have something to lose, if some facet of this proposed network ends up becoming reality.... Quite frankly, it's insulting to come on here & ask a forum comprised of enthusiasts, commuters, and even MTA bus operators if they're looking at things from the vantage point of a business exec'....

I don't have a problem with your narrative, I have problem who you're directing it at.... It's as if you're criticizing the MTA through those of us on here voicing their opinions.....

[7-express]

1 hour ago, LTA1992 said:

THEN. YOU. ADD. MORE. AS. NEEDED.

The fine print literally says these are generalized locations listed and are subject to change. If people want it, they'll ask for it.

Simple as that.

And that's the big thing.  Comment the hell out of the remix page and give them the feedback they're looking for so it can be incorporated into the final draft.  Commenting on here is nice but it won't amount to anything if no one comments on the proposal so the designers can see what they have likely overlooked.

[N6 Limited]

12 hours ago, SubBus said:

Wow...

The Q3 goes to Jamaica Hospital via Parsons-Archer

The Q77 have no subway connection...

The Q85 runs down Guy Brewer and terminate at Rosedale LIRR...

The Q111 Farmers short turn is 24/7.

The Q111 Rosedale is limited while the Q113 is local...

Bye bye Q114...

Look a little closer, the Q3 (QT68) is going to Jamaica Hospital via Hillside.

The Q77 (QT73) goes to the

Both Guy R Brewer routes which cross Farmers Blvd are limited, the one to Far Rockaway is a super limited blue line.

Q114's unique portion is being taken over by the QT62 (Q22) where riders have a choice between the Guy R Brewer or Rockaway Blvd Routes on Rockaway Tpke.

 

 

1 hour ago, LTA1992 said:

I've noticed something about the Light Green routes.

All but three have proposed headways of 30 minutes or better. Most are also located within walking distance of either another light green route making similar transfers, or a higher frequency and higher speed route. So there are usually alternatives within 5-10 minutes of walking.

I think I'm starting to fully understand and appreciate the methodology behind it.

I like it, both the Francis Lewis and Springfield Green Routes go all the way up to Northern Blvd (and further), the others provide connectivity which is currently lacking.

I also just realized the Springfield Bus goes all the way down to Rockaway Blvd so now eastern Queens is connected to Far Rockaway without having to go all the way to Jamaica.

So these routes allow you to get around without going to Jamaica or Flushing (etc) to transfer and getting stuck in the congestion. 

----------------------

Also, the new routes in general are not all using the same roads (Archer Ave, Main Street, Kissena Blvd, Jamaica Ave) and they designed a few to be through routes so they can get in and out without clogging bus lanes and streets with layover buses. 

[RailRunRob]

49 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

You have a thread full of people that have a personal interest & passion for the bus network because they have something to lose, if some facet of this proposed network ends up becoming reality.... Quite frankly, it's insulting to come on here & ask a forum comprised of enthusiasts, commuters, and even MTA bus operators if they're looking at things from the vantage point of a business exec'....

I don't have a problem with your narrative, I have problem who you're directing it at.... It's as if you're criticizing the MTA through those of us on here voicing their opinions.....

You know what and it may be my fault maybe I'm too much on build and business side. Maybe I am taking people's opinions as truth and overthinking it when somebody just wants to voice there opinion, point of view or just simply get something off there chest. I apologize for that again my intent is not to diminish to someone else's opinion. Just simply offering different point I'm definitely not criticizing and I'm sorry that that's what im giving off from your POV. But I am definitely looking at it objectively and going through the possible what,why and the goals these planners had in mind. So when I hear someone say the MTA is up to no good I'm automatically going to ask how you came to that conclusion and look some type infomation or data I'm just trained too. Maybe that gives off  A** hole vibe (Shurgs) But to me it's objective reasoning and confirmation. And if it's an opinion it's an opinion no need poke and prod. The one thing I can tell you that I know is that I don't know. So if im off or missing something just let me know.But I do think it's important to have another point of view Who wouldn't want the actual designers of this plan to be on a thread like this to explain their point of view? True that's not me but sometimes even having someone say"Hey did you think about this? Or did you take a look at that? Might give you another perspective. And that goes both ways. Comfort is the enemy of progression IMO. But rest asured the respect is there.

Edited January 1, 2020 by RailRunRob

[BrooklynBus]

3 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

How do you run a business, offer a product or measure cost without data? What you're saying maybe true but you already on step five you skipped a few trust steps 1-4 was everything from road ops to ridership and mileage all before that decision is made for anything. To your point how do you measure if somethings quicker without data? Im I missing something?

The MTA decides what they want to do, then goes and cherry picks through the data to support the conclusions it made. They don’t let the data guide the conclusions. As proof, look at all the high volume bus stops they eliminated. The buses won’t save time by doing this. They will just overload adjacent stops. Riders will become inpatient and more will evade the fare by entering the rear door. And as for the lightly used stops eliminated, buses won’t run faster either if most buses would have skipped these stops anyway. 

Also, why would you cutback the Q53 where there is heavy ridership from Woodside with buses filled by the time they reach Queens Center if you are letting the data lead the way to forming your conclusions? 

And why are they ignoring passenger travel time and numbers of transfers needed to complete a trip?