Queens Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[RailRunRob]

20 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

At a bare minimum, I would like to see the MTA use more cognitive geography and mental mapping through direct observation in their planning decisions.

Absolutely necessary that's the foundations of thinking and understanding people.

I agree wholeheartedly in Software most important part of process is User Experience A lot of cognitive principles are used For user stories and personas understanding users and how they interact with your software. I understand the importance Even though my background is more Civil /geometric engineering which is super data driven That's why you have a team and different points of input.

40 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

I will fully admit that I'm new to this, just a college student, while we have people on here and in this very thread who have been in the transit industry and/or planning for decades so I don't have much standing when I say this but in my personal opinion we need to find a way to combine hard data with people's experiences (and most importantly conceptualizations of) interacting with the network. I'm worried that we are focusing too much on ridership data and not enough on how service is conceptualized by its users.

10 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

I wouldn't know it, since you've effectively made a whole argument out of nothing.....

Sorry about that now I know to you check you off in opinions column. Live and learn I suppose.

[B35 via Church]

1 minute ago, RailRunRob said:

Sorry about that now I know to you check you off in opinions column. Live and learn I suppose.

"we should still understand the correct way of doing it which is with data and feedback. Or we're no better then folks at the MTA were pointing out."

Continue minimizing those with opinions & see how far you get with that.... Oh wait, that's what the MTA does.

[RailRunRob]

2 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

"we should still understand the correct way of doing it which is with data and feedback. Or we're no better then folks at the MTA were pointing out."

Continue minimizing those with opinions & see how far you get with that.... Oh wait, that's what the MTA does.

Never said you shouldn't have an opinion I have tons but it's always stated as such. Feedback IMO <--(Opinion) It's from multiple perspectives not just one or two people what you might hate someone else might love we wont know until we listen and see the other perspectives.

[bobtehpanda]

Looking at the plan a little more, I will say that I would be less concerned about the blue vs red subway connection if the blue routes, rather than completely skipping portions of the red routes, made the same stops with closed-door service, the same way NICE technically makes all stops in Queens but is closed-door. Because right now some trips would require a two-transfer, two-fare journey.

Also, noticing the Downtown express buses; if this is how the MTA wants to eat the dollar vans' lunches those are the wrong routes to be targeting IMO. An express bus running from Fresh Meadows to Chinatown would be wildly successful ridership wise (either along HHE or 73rd.

[B35 via Church]

19 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Never said you shouldn't have an opinion I have tons but it's always stated as such. Feedback IMO <--(Opinion) It's from multiple perspectives not just one or two people what you might hate someone else might love we wont know until we listen and see the other perspectives.

"now I know to check you off in opinions column" is a flippant retort to anyone that has an opinion...

To your other point, obviously feedback includes that of those from multiple perspectives.... Where am I saying or implicating otherwise??? Apparently you are putting me in some sort of box & its completely unfounded... People can have whatever opinions, that's part of life... That should go without saying.

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Don't they have it ending at the current Q21/41 terminal? I personally think the Lindenwood routing is good, since it eliminates that one-way loop (where people only have northbound service) and also straightens it out.

But (as a lot of people have mentioned), they went overboard with the separation of these service "classes" so to speak (and even they're not sure what classes these routes fall into. They make the Woodhaven local a red mainline/grid route, but they give it the most basic headways like it's a local/coverage circulator). Then they combine two ridership bases that have no relation to each other, instead of having those branches make up the Woodhaven trunk.

Also make note of the answer to the Frequently Asked Question "Are you cutting service"? In The Bronx and Staten Island express, they emphasised the cost-neutrality, but here they beat around the bush (which makes me believe they did set out to reduce service by a few million dollars, given that there are routes that are seeing reductions in the span & frequency)

If you're talking about Q21/41 service on 151st/153rd av, that's what the current QT88 does as well.... If you're talking about service on the Q21/41 between 160th & 164th, that's Howard Beach...

Streamlining service on 84th lessens the wait time for buses in Lindenwood, but I don't see it garnering anymore usage in that part of Howard Beach, over the current Q21/41....

18 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Also, noticing the Downtown express buses; if this is how the MTA wants to eat the dollar vans' lunches those are the wrong routes to be targeting IMO. An express bus running from Fresh Meadows to Chinatown would be wildly successful ridership wise (either along HHE or 73rd.

 That's not a bad idea - Too bad it isn't who the MTA's actually targeting by running buses along Bowery.

Edited January 2, 2020 by B35 via Church

[BrooklynBus]

42 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Sounds familiar, doesn't it....

I hope you are not inferring that is something I do, because I don't.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

If anyone needs a template to write to a local politician about this issue regarding local bus service changes you find objectionable, you can use the template below based on a letter I sent to my council member. Since many politicians might not be entirely aware of all transportation needs in specific, especially to destinations outside your district, you will need to explain it a little more detailed in some cases. Feel free to change anything around however you like. If you like in an area with high elderly populations and/or have politicians who have focuses or interests in the elderly populations, it will be beneficial to explain that point as much as possible. 

Dear [Insert Politician's Name],

I am writing because I am very concerned about the fate of local bus service in [Neighborhood] under the MTA’s Queens bus redesign. I have a link to the report in case you need it: https://new.mta.info/document/12706. Under the draft plan there would be significant changes to routes, service levels, and service hours which overall are a poor representation of what riders actually need. While there are some benefits, like [briefly mention one change in your area and what it accomplishes, if applicable], there are major problems with the proposed plan, including reduction in bus coverage, service levels, and ADA accessibility for the handicapped and elderly. 

I ask that you please do not support this plan, which would be so detrimental for local bus riders. I also urge that you demand and pressure the MTA to make necessary modifications, because the plan reduces overall connectivity and makes taking the bus tedious, especially for the more vulnerable populations which are most dependent on the bus.

[Write about other connectivity issues, including lost access to subway lines, commercial areas, and any areas where the new walk to a bus would be greater than 1/4 of a mile] 

[Explain any reductions in service hours, and compare it with respect to existing service]

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. I know it's rather long but there are so many issues on supposed ‘draft’ plan which cannot be ignored. These issues need to be rectified for the overall sustainability of our community. 

Sincerely,

[Name]

 

[RailRunRob]

31 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

now I know to check you off in opinions column" is a flippant retort to anyone that has an opinion...

To your other point, obviously feedback includes that of those from multiple perspectives.... Where am I saying or implicating otherwise??? Apparently you are putting me in some sort of box & its completely unfounded... People can have whatever opinions, that's part of life... That should go without saying.

No not really after trying to explain a few times maybe it didn't catch on this end. I honestly was taking your comments as partially factual thinking maybe this was some insight to the MTA's process. Why I asked for more details and how you maybe confirmed all of this. And it's partially my fault I actually think that some people might actually work in the industry on this form and A few do so im treating it like real life. I know people that work in transportation and engineering so everyone's starting off at 100%. Maybe I should just take everything as an opinion and work up from there start at 0%. That's my point No disrespect. @BrooklynBus had 45 years in I didn't know that. Okay sir you know way more than I do you're the expert here's my ear. Again if it's my fault I'll take it I need to start looking at it from the opinion standpoint first and foremost so it's all in the Opinion column, now from my perspective so it's nothing personal. But I am the type a guy that needs to see it If you're claiming it for anything more than an opinion. If everyone's talking about there an expert at something and no one's doing it and putting into practice I'm going to think that's a little strange personally. And I might be a jerk for that but I personally don't have a problem telling you I don't know or submitting or this is IMO. But I'm not afraid to tell you what I do know and what im a expert at either.

Edited January 2, 2020 by RailRunRob

[B35 via Church]

59 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

No not really after trying to explain a few times maybe it didn't catch on this end. I honestly was taking your comments as partially factual thinking maybe this was some insight to the MTA's process. Why I asked for more details and how you maybe confirmed all of this. And it's partially my fault I actually think that some people might actually work in the industry on this form and A few do so im treating it like real life. I know people that work in transportation and engineering so everyone's starting off at 100%. Maybe I should just take everything as an opinion and work up from there start at 0%. That's my point No disrespect. @BrooklynBus had 45 years in I didn't know that. Okay sir you know way more than I do you're the expert here's my ear. Again if it's my fault I'll take it I need to start looking at it from the opinion standpoint first and foremost so it's all in the Opinion column, now from my perspective so it's nothing personal. But I am the type a guy that needs to see it If you're claiming it for anything more than an opinion. If everyone's talking about there an expert at something and no one's doing it and putting into practice I'm going to think that's a little strange personally. And I might be a jerk for that but I personally don't have a problem telling you I don't know or submitting or this is IMO.

Yeah, there's no disrespect here either... I will admit though that I was exuding irritation - as I was trying to figure out where all this was even coming from, on your end, since this afternoon... I'm reading your posts, and I'm sitting there like, who's even arguing this? We know planning isn't easy... We know that there are costs involved with running bus routes... We know data is important..... So forth & so on....

So yeah, all points taken, but again, nobody's claiming expert status on here (well I'm not, anyway).....

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

I hope you are not inferring that is something I do, because I don't.

Dude, I'm talking about the MTA.

 

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

If anyone needs a template to write to a local politician about this issue regarding local bus service changes you find objectionable, you can use the template below based on a letter I sent to my council member. Since many politicians might not be entirely aware of all transportation needs in specific, especially to destinations outside your district, you will need to explain it a little more detailed in some cases. Feel free to change anything around however you like. If you like in an area with high elderly populations and/or have politicians who have focuses or interests in the elderly populations, it will be beneficial to explain that point as much as possible. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Dear [Insert Politician's Name],

I am writing because I am very concerned about the fate of local bus service in [Neighborhood] under the MTA’s Queens bus redesign. I have a link to the report in case you need it: https://new.mta.info/document/12706. Under the draft plan there would be significant changes to routes, service levels, and service hours which overall are a poor representation of what riders actually need. While there are some benefits, like [briefly mention one change in your area and what it accomplishes, if applicable], there are major problems with the proposed plan, including reduction in bus coverage, service levels, and ADA accessibility for the handicapped and elderly. 

I ask that you please do not support this plan, which would be so detrimental for local bus riders. I also urge that you demand and pressure the MTA to make necessary modifications, because the plan reduces overall connectivity and makes taking the bus tedious, especially for the more vulnerable populations which are most dependent on the bus.

 

[Write about other connectivity issues, including lost access to subway lines, commercial areas, and any areas where the new walk to a bus would be greater than 1/4 of a mile] 

[Explain any reductions in service hours, and compare it with respect to existing service]

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. I know it's rather long but there are so many issues on supposed ‘draft’ plan which cannot be ignored. These issues need to be rectified for the overall sustainability of our community. 

Sincerely,

[Name]

 

Good looking out..... I've been contacting people behind the scenes anyway (I'll shoot you a PM)... If anyone wants to use any of my talking points made in this thread, please, have at it.... Don't even have to ask.... Reword them to your liking, whatever.... I'm beyond fed up & I'm not even a Queens resident....

Edited January 2, 2020 by B35 via Church

[RailRunRob]

1 minute ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, there's no disrespect here either... I will admit though that I was exuding irritation - as I was trying to figure out where all this was even coming from, on your end, since this afternoon... I'm reading your posts, and I'm sitting there like, who's even arguing this? We know planning isn't easy... We know that there are costs involved with running bus routes... We know data is important..... So forth & so on....

So yeah, all points taken, but again, nobody's claiming expert status on here (well I'm not, anyway).....

All good no question the respect is there. I think it was just a difference perception. Plus it being in the digital form and the format of a thread doesn't help as well. 

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

What truly concerns me about all this are those "non-stop" sections that these planners have made so commonplace in the name of quote on quote route efficiency. It doesn't help people at all when they have to walk even further to reach a bus stop than they normally would in sacrifice of runtime. I might be a bit harsh in critiquing this new proposal draft, but I am calling out BS on the majority of it. I get the impression that the MTA is trying to pull something NICE with this crap. Nothing really creative, more like take apart and rearrange...

[BrooklynBus]

25 minutes ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

What truly concerns me about all this are those "non-stop" sections that these planners have made so commonplace in the name of quote on quote route efficiency. It doesn't help people at all when they have to walk even further to reach a bus stop than they normally would in sacrifice of runtime. I might be a bit harsh in critiquing this new proposal draft, but I am calling out BS on the majority of it. I get the impression that the MTA is trying to pull something NICE with this crap. Nothing really creative, more like take apart and rearrange...

Cutting gross operating costs is their only objective. They are still treating revenue as if there is no relation between the amount of service provided and revenue attained. How can you issue a plan and not disclose the before and after costs to run the system and they have the nerve to claim transparency. 

[danielhg121]

The QT68 route says northbound to Federal Circle and southbound to Jamaica Hospital. How did this happen? Smh. They prob don't even ride the routes.

They released the route profiles too and this still slipped through the cracks, shows how inept they are and we're having them redesign a whole borough's bus network. Someone just shoot me.

EDIT: ......and they did the same thing with the QT11. Eastbound to East Elmhurst and Westbound to 188th. REALLY?

Edited January 2, 2020 by danielhg121

[danielhg121]

Did the same thing with the QT47... can't differentiate between north, east, south or west. These are such simple mistakes that shouldn't have happened in the first place had we had an effective team planning this, 

QT73 needs to be switched too.

QMT117 to "Hudsdon Yards"

😒😪

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

My hot takes on this are pretty similar to Alon Levy's so i'll post the blog post from Pedestrian Observations at the end here. There's one thing about these NYC borough redesigns that makes this a lot different then other redesign projects that are seen as recent planning successes (ala Houston). Hardly anyone took the bus in those places. You get a lot more freedom to implement changes when the group of people it's geared to aren't touching the current setup with a 10 foot pole. With, NYC you have to deal with a legacy system that is tremendously well utilized (even if at a declining rate). That means that changes now have to pass muster with the commuters who are using the current system and those people are going to compare all the changes to what is currently running. 

And this is where the MTA is stuck between a rock and a hard place. With usage of the current system (in all boroughs, not just queens) being as high as it is, there has to be the recognition that most of what's here is either a) uniquely benefitting many commuters and/or b) the best possible service that can be provided for some commuters under any network design. If you make wholesale changes to the degree that was done here in Queens you come off as ignoring the above and already pissing off the largest stakeholders in the project. Many of these same people though are the main ones who will complain about slow speeds, overcrowding an other nuisances with the bus that are leading to the decline in ridership that the MTA is aiming to resolve. You have to come into a network redesign project with the idea then that a) most routes in the current setup have some sort of operational problem that needs to be improved and/or b) there is money being left on the table in terms of potential trips the current system doesn't serve. It is nearly impossible to pull off a successful redesign with all four of those bolded assumptions in place. This is why I thought if any significant changes were made in the Queens project, it was going to be bashed on here. Most regular commuters and especially transitfans have adapted to the current system enough to where any major change is going to be seen as worse by default. Not making matters any better is the well earned reputation of the agency being an incompetent operator of buses in general. Who is to say that any potential opportunities introduced by new routes, or non-stop feeders would be met with the right frequencies and bus priority treatments to make them viable in real life. 

To end this with where I actually stand, I have two points to make. I do think the draft redesign looks better than the current system for reasons many in the "always follow best practices" school of transit planning would agree with. I will be posting a blog at the bottom of this which is a critique I agree with. I see stop consolidation on the major corridors, faster feeder service with the non-stop segments introduced on some routes and quite a few corridors where the MTA would continue it's SBS push which is the current day LTD so I'll live with it. Do I think this draft redesign should be implemented though? No, not in the slightest. It is way too much of a departure from the current model that does work for enough people to make significant changes a non-starter. There are too many people's lives that will be affected by this to afford getting anything wrong and for what I know international best practices could be "wrong" so I say scrap the whole thing. Since it won't be scrapped, I say godspeed to all those who will be voicing their complaints and speaking for the public on this. 

https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/12/31/queens-bus-redesign/

Edited January 2, 2020 by JubaionBx12+SBS
add a link

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

57 minutes ago, JubaionBx12+SBS said:

https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/12/31/queens-bus-redesign/

 

"I am not going to look at the changes to the express buses, which are not an important part of the network anyway"

 

Couldn't close the tab any faster. I know a lot of people may be anti-express bus for X reason (I've even heard the argument that it enforces racist institutions, outside this forum), but to say that express buses are not important in the Queens bus network is ignorant at best, and completely disingenuous at worst. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[paulrivera]

Anyone else notice they're proposing cutting the weekend hawk runs on the Q44? Last bus on Sat/Sun at 9:30?!? Like, are you kidding me?

It's the little shit they're trying to sneak in like this that's going to make people lose even more faith in this agency, I swear.

Edited January 2, 2020 by paulrivera

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

Did the same thing with the QT47... can't differentiate between north, east, south or west. These are such simple mistakes that shouldn't have happened in the first place had we had an effective team planning this, 

QT73 needs to be switched too.

QMT117 to "Hudsdon Yards"

😒😪

Oy vey.... I noticed a couple errors in that PDF also...

Critiquing the proposals are subjective, however having that many errors in an official document like that is indefensible.... I don't wanna hear the whole, oh, we were rushed BS either....

3 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

The QT68 route says northbound to Federal Circle and southbound to Jamaica Hospital. How did this happen? Smh. They prob don't even ride the routes.

They had the map upside down !

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

"I am not going to look at the changes to the express buses, which are not an important part of the network anyway"

 

Couldn't close the tab any faster. I know a lot of people may be anti-express bus for X reason (I've even heard the argument that it enforces racist institutions, outside this forum), but to say that express buses are not important in the Queens bus network is ignorant at best, and completely disingenuous at worst. 

...and it's a wonder why express bus service is becoming more & more expendable

Thanks for the heads up though.... Was that from someone else replying to the blogpost, or Alon himself?

Edited January 2, 2020 by B35 via Church

[NY1635]

3 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

The QT68 route says northbound to Federal Circle and southbound to Jamaica Hospital. How did this happen? Smh. They prob don't even ride the routes.

They released the route profiles too and this still slipped through the cracks, shows how inept they are and we're having them redesign a whole borough's bus network. Someone just shoot me.

EDIT: ......and they did the same thing with the QT11. Eastbound to East Elmhurst and Westbound to 188th. REALLY?

I heard that Port Authority has or had a shuttle between Jamaica Railroad and Federal Circle. 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

17 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

...and that attitude is a significant enough a reason as to why express bus service is becoming more & more expendable

Thanks for the heads up though.... Was that from someone else replying to the blogpost, or Alon himself?

That was from Alon himself. It was in the second paragraph of his post.

[Cait Sith]

1 minute ago, NY1635 said:

I heard that Port Authority has or had a shuttle between Jamaica Railroad and Federal Circle. 

Never did....that only happens when the Air Train is down.

[paulrivera]

1 minute ago, NY1635 said:

I heard that Port Authority has or had a shuttle between Jamaica Railroad and Federal Circle. 

You mean that overcrowded robotrain that costs $7.50?

I'm gonna miss the Q10...

[NY1635]

5 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

Never did....that only happens when the Air Train is down.

Oh, so it's an express route from JFK Airport to Manhattan just like the JFK Flyer from the Airport to Hempstead. 

The n91 used to be an airport route for LI Workers and Hospitality Staff over at LI Marriot. They should bring it back using those small cutaway buses. IIRC, Long Islanders didn't like paying premium for school buses and want tour buses.

I personally think that tour busses should be put on the n20 and n24 and n72 to Bablyon for college students.

Edited January 2, 2020 by NY1635

[paulrivera]

3 minutes ago, NY1635 said:

it's an express route from JFK Airport to Manhattan

I think those buses went to an on-demand model or was otherwise severely curtailed.

I'd like to know how the hell JFK is gonna end up having such mediocre public transit options when it's supposed to be the crown jewel of our airports?

The fact that LaGuardia is going to look more attractive to me is pretty ass backwards tbh.

[NY1635]

Just now, paulrivera said:

I think those buses went to an on-demand model or was otherwise severely curtailed.

I'd like to know how the hell JFK is gonna end up having such mediocre public transit options when it's supposed to be the crown jewel of our airports?

The fact that LaGuardia is going to look more attractive to me is pretty ass backwards tbh.

Let NICE use their shuttles buses for JFK-Hempstead. It can be used by Queens Residents. It only takes roughly 30-40 minutes for the route to reach there via Merrick and Peninsula. They have cutaway buses now.