Interborough Express (Triboro RX) Discussion

[m7zanr160s]

On 1/8/2022 at 7:08 PM, RapidoNewLook said:

Loud diesel powered trains once nightly is a lot less disturbing than loud subway trains all day every day. 

Honestly, trains aren't even loud anymore. Especially with continuous welded trail and concrete ties.

[R10 2952]

1 hour ago, m7zanr160s said:

Honestly, trains aren't even loud anymore. Especially with continuous welded trail and concrete ties.

The  crossing Broadway Bridge, the MNRR P32s with their horns, and the CSX SD40s with their jet-engine sounds at full throttle paint a very different picture on my end...    

[Lex]

5 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

In my opinion the only trains that can reliably run on this proposal must be diesel powered. From the waterfront eastward it's mostly open-cut trackage. Subway cars and MU consists added to snow or ice is a no-go. Look at the Sea Beach  or Dyre  in those conditions. Third rail is a non-starter ,IMO . Let's be realistic. There's nothing wrong with enthusiasm but look at the big picture every once and a while. Carry on.

Well, it's a good thing third rail isn't the only electrification method, especially since double-stacking is being considered.

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, m7zanr160s said:

Honestly, trains aren't even loud anymore. Especially with continuous welded trail and concrete ties.

Well, trains aren't as loud as that of having entered/left old South Ferry station on average, but the rumblings of NTT's up in the Bronx on them el's aren't all that quiet either.... We're not remotely at the point where we can try to convey that the noise emanated by trains can't be bothersome....

If you're referring to RR's, I actually find the screeching of the M9's {LIRR} pulling into/out of stations rather annoying at times, TBH....

[Trainmaster5]

14 hours ago, Lex said:

Well, it's a good thing third rail isn't the only electrification method, especially since double-stacking is being considered.

I'm well aware of the different means of powering a consist. The part of the thread earlier that mentioned cost is what I'm basing my response on. Carry on with the conversation. 

[bobtehpanda]

On 1/14/2022 at 9:53 PM, R10 2952 said:

The  crossing Broadway Bridge, the MNRR P32s with their horns, and the CSX SD40s with their jet-engine sounds at full throttle paint a very different picture on my end...    

The horns are at least solvable through setting up Quiet Zones. https://railroads.dot.gov/elibrary/how-create-quiet-zone LIRR trains do not sound horns at the Little Neck grade crossing.

This is what the River Line sounds like: 

 

[bobtehpanda]

Ugh. Meant to post https://youtu.be/HAZosllcM74

 

[m7zanr160s]

On 1/15/2022 at 3:10 AM, B35 via Church said:

Well, trains aren't as loud as that of having entered/left old South Ferry station on average, but the rumblings of NTT's up in the Bronx on them el's aren't all that quiet either.... We're not remotely at the point where we can try to convey that the noise emanated by trains can't be bothersome....

If you're referring to RR's, I actually find the screeching of the M9's {LIRR} pulling into/out of stations rather annoying at times, TBH....

Those are old elevated structures. Newones aren't even noisy anymore. For example: the JFK Airtrain viaduct over the Van Wyck. Also, the upgraded LIRR Atlantic Avenue viaduct in Brooklyn which, if I'm not mistaken, has rubber dampers. Technology has significantly lessened the noise trains make. 

[rbrome]

16 minutes ago, m7zanr160s said:

Those are old elevated structures. Newones aren't even noisy anymore. For example: the JFK Airtrain viaduct over the Van Wyck. Also, the upgraded LIRR Atlantic Avenue viaduct in Brooklyn which, if I'm not mistaken, has rubber dampers. Technology has significantly lessened the noise trains make. 

This! I really wish NY had a few more modern elevated lines, so people could understand how quiet they can be with modern designs. We might be able to build more transit in this city, given the high costs of tunneling. 

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, rbrome said:

This! I really wish NY had a few more modern elevated lines, so people could understand how quiet they can be with modern designs. We might be able to build more transit in this city, given the high costs of tunneling. 

I am kind of surprised NY has never embarked on wholesale replacement, considering the MTA gets sued over noise on a fairly regular basis, and other cities have reconstructed elevated lines as concrete structures (Philadelphia has done it, Chicago is doing it).

It's part of how those cities have attacked ADA among other things.

Edited January 16, 2022 by bobtehpanda

[B35 via Church]

4 hours ago, m7zanr160s said:

Those are old elevated structures. Newones aren't even noisy anymore. For example: the JFK Airtrain viaduct over the Van Wyck. Also, the upgraded LIRR Atlantic Avenue viaduct in Brooklyn which, if I'm not mistaken, has rubber dampers. Technology has significantly lessened the noise trains make. 

Technology lessening train noise isn't being disputed, this basic notion of trains not being loud anymore are... Trains still run on those old el's & they're still loud as hell at times... Yes, trains aren't as loud, but they're still not, not loud at times....

11 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The horns are at least solvable through setting up Quiet Zones. https://railroads.dot.gov/elibrary/how-create-quiet-zone LIRR trains do not sound horns at the Little Neck grade crossing.

This is what the River Line sounds like: 

 

Funny you bring up Riverline... I wanted to ride the thing (out to Florence, from Trenton) yesterday & just missed the sucker, coming off the god-awful NEC (which made an extra stop at N. Elizabeth, apparently due to a cancelled NJCL train & on top of it, sat short of Trenton for a whole 18 mins before finally pulling into the station).... The noise they (RiverLine) make I would classify as moderate; not too loud, but not all that quiet either... I personally think the Newark "subway" is nice & quiet(er)....

Edited January 16, 2022 by B35 via Church

[mrsman]

If this line gets built, and if it can be extended a little bit to the north, at minimum there should be plans to provide a transfer with Penn Station Access trains ,even if there is no plan to actually run the Interboro to Co-op City.

Not sure how feasible it is, though.

North of Jackson Heights, one branch of the Interboro could provide the link to LGA, following the BQE and Grand Central alignments - although my preference for LGA is still an extension of Astoria  lline.

 

 

[mrsman]

Here's a link to a good article from LIRR today.

https://www.thelirrtoday.com/2022/01/interborough-express.html?utm_source=LIRRToday-Twitter&utm_campaign=auto-pub&utm_medium=social&m=1

 

 

[Trainmaster5]

2 hours ago, mrsman said:

Here's a link to a good article from LIRR today.

https://www.thelirrtoday.com/2022/01/interborough-express.html?utm_source=LIRRToday-Twitter&utm_campaign=auto-pub&utm_medium=social&m=1

 

 

This is what I was talking about when I mentioned cost earlier in the thread. Thanks for the article. I've seen similar things over the years. Carry on.

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

This is what I was talking about when I mentioned cost earlier in the thread. Thanks for the article. I've seen similar things over the years. Carry on.

At this point, the thread is mostly a "glass half empty or glass half full" situation.

We should probably wait for the study to actually reject anything outright though. Not sure why people like to just dismiss things out of hand. At the MTA's rate, the study'll come out in like five years. Where's that Utica study?

[Trainmaster5]

9 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

At this point, the thread is mostly a "glass half empty or glass half full" situation.

We should probably wait for the study to actually reject anything outright though. Not sure why people like to just dismiss things out of hand. At the MTA's rate, the study'll come out in like five years. Where's that Utica study?

I'm still waiting for the subway stops at Utica and Empire Blvd and Church Avenues. I think BrooklynBus and I have been looking for those stops for 60 + years now 

[R10 2952]

6 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I'm still waiting for the subway stops at Utica and Empire Blvd and Church Avenues. I think BrooklynBus and I have been looking for those stops for 60 + years now 

Similar scenario as the folks who live along Webster in the Bronx, waiting for that long-promised SAS replacement for the Third Avenue El.  If ever there was a glass-half-empty situation, it would be that one for sure.

Edited January 17, 2022 by R10 2952

[GojiMet86]

 

The MTA has released a report:

https://new.mta.info/document/72081

 

Governor Kathy Hochul on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/GovKathyHochul/status/1484216551616262144

Quote

Proud to announce that we’re moving forward with a huge New York City transit project: the new Interborough Express This line will connect Brooklyn and Queens, shaving time off commutes and making it easier to connect to subway lines across the route.

 

 

The MTA now has an Interborough page:

https://new.mta.info/projects/interborough-express

Quote

 

Interborough Express
Updated Jan 10, 2022

About the project
The Interborough Express is a transformative rapid transit project that would connect currently underserved areas of Brooklyn and Queens. It would substantially cut down on travel times between the two boroughs, reduce congestion, and expand economic opportunities for the people who live and work in the surrounding neighborhoods.

The project would be built along the existing Bay Ridge Connector, a 14-mile freight line that extends from Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, to Jackson Heights, Queens. It would create a new transit option for close to 900,000 residents of the neighborhoods along the route, along with 260,000 people who work in Brooklyn and Queens. It would connect with up to 17 different subway lines, as well as Long Island Rail Road stations, with end-to-end travel times anticipated at around 40 minutes.

Using the existing rail infrastructure means the Interborough Express could be built more quickly,  regardless of the mode of transit chosen for the project. It would also preserve the Bay Ridge Connector’s use as a freight line, providing an opportunity to connect to the Port Authority’s Cross-Harbor Freight Project.

 

Project benefits

• A direct public transit option between Brooklyn and Queens
• Connections with up to 17 subway lines and Long IslandRail Road
• A faster commute — end-to-end rides are expected to take 40 minutes
• Projected initial ridership of 74,000 to 88,000 weekday riders
• A new transit option in underserved locations where more than a third of residents are below the federal poverty line
• Shorter construction time, since the project will use an existing freight right-of-way

Next steps
In January 2022, Gov. Kathy Hochul directed the MTA to begin the environmental review process for the Interborough Express, and identify the best mode of transit for the project (heavy rail, light rail, or bus rapid transit).

To that end, we will seek input from community members, elected officials, and other stakeholders to determine the best mode of transit for the project. Then, we will begin the state and federal environmental review process.

Gov. Hochul has also directed the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey to complete an environmental review for a cross-freight rail tunnel, which could potentially link with the Bay Ridge Connector freight line.

 

 

[bobtehpanda]

They did an alternatives screening already! So this is already more progressed than the Utica Study.

Quote

Conventional Rail (CR)

The final Conventional Rail alternative calls for two dedicated passenger rail tracks, running largely alongside the existing freight rail line. The line would use FRA-compliant electrical multiple units (EMUs). Unlike Conventional Rail elsewhere in the region, trains would be configured similarly to subway cars, allowing for faster boarding and alighting as well as more standing room on trains, and trains would operate at transit-level frequencies.

Light Rail Transit (LRT)
The Light Rail alternative envisions a two-track line that would be physically separated from freight traffic due to FRA regulations. Most of the line would run side-by-side with the freight tracks. Some parts would run on a viaduct above the freight tracks at street level. A short segment of the line would run on existing streets: a half-mile segment on Metropolitan Avenue, 69th Street, 69th Place, and Juniper Boulevard; and a 900-foot segment from the railroad cut to Jackson Heights Bus Terminal.

Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)
The final bus rapid transit alternative involves a dedicated busway fully separated from freight traffic. The busway would run either alongside existing freight tracks or on a viaduct, identical to the alignment of the proposed LRT alternative. Buses would be electrically powered. BRT would operate on the same short on-street segments as LRT. In order to provide the same operating capacity as the other two modes, buses would need to operate more frequently.

Things of note:

• Diesel was categorically rejected, probably for the pollution
• Automated Guideway Transit (AirTrain JFK) and subway was also rejected, probably due to the ROW constraints
• Runtimes are 45 minutes, 39, 41 for Rail, LRT, and BRT respectively.
• The projected yard is either 65th St, Brooklyn Army Terminal, and for BRT Jackie Gleason depot
• Annual ridership estimates range from 22M for BRT to 26M for light rail

And a nice little callout, I guess:

Quote

A Different Kind of Conventional Rail
The Conventional Rail alternative involves the use of FRA-compliant vehicles that can operate in the same corridor as freight trains, but which offer service frequencies and train car interiors that more closely resemble the subway. Such hybrid systems operate in many places, such as London’s Overground, Paris’ RER, and Berlin’s S-Bahn.

 

[bobtehpanda]

One interesting thing to note: the proposed renderings have no faregates. Even the rail version does not, having direct exits to the sidewalk in a similar fashion to Murray Hill station in Queens. Perhaps SBS-style proof of payment?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

2 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

 

The MTA has released a report:

https://new.mta.info/document/72081

 

Governor Kathy Hochul on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/GovKathyHochul/status/1484216551616262144

 

 

The MTA now has an Interborough page:

https://new.mta.info/projects/interborough-express

 

Wow…that was fast! Governor Hochul ain’t playing. Still don’t like how the graphic showing key destinations has a giant white space where The Bronx would be. It reminds me of that state map of Maryland that left off the City of Baltimore which then-newly elected Governor Larry Hogan stood in front of to announce a huge amount of spending on roads in that state back in 2015 (after pulling the plug on the proposed Red Line light rail in Baltimore).

[Lex]

23 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Wow…that was fast! Governor Hochul ain’t playing. Still don’t like how the graphic showing key destinations has a giant white space where The Bronx would be. It reminds me of that state map of Maryland that left off the City of Baltimore which then-newly elected Governor Larry Hogan stood in front of to announce a huge amount of spending on roads in that state back in 2015 (after pulling the plug on the proposed Red Line light rail in Baltimore).

In fairness, they'd probably want Penn Station Access active before any potential Bronx extensions come into play (if they really value any amount of sanity).

[Jsunflyguy]

On 1/13/2022 at 4:40 AM, bobtehpanda said:

Right, but what I'm saying is that movement on Bay Ridge can still be done on those off-times, as it is done on the rest of the network. 

Most of the freight customers are out east where there are similar if not more restrictions on when one can actually run a freight train. The Babylon Branch is also only double-tracked with frequent services. 

The problem is the trains can move from the Bronx in the dead of night, be sorted in Fresh  Pond in the dead of night and be sent to LI in the dead of night. It would take 3 dead of nights. Which means more cargo will end up going down the LIE and through 

As far as third rail places like Murray Hill, Bayside etc survive and an LIRR option have the luxury of running a DE/DM replacement if it was really that wicked. Not going to oppose building public transport on the off chance it gets murked 3-4 days a year. If we can dump money into making an LRT/BRT ROW we can pay for third rail heaters and an alcohol train.

[trainfan22]

YES! They are considering a light rail option!!!!!!

 

 

They better not make this no BRT/SBS BS, buses suck, every major transportation project from here on out should be rail, PERIOD!

 

[mrsman]

1 hour ago, trainfan22 said:

YES! They are considering a light rail option!!!!!!

 

 

They better not make this no BRT/SBS BS, buses suck, every major transportation project from here on out should be rail, PERIOD!

 

I would think that it is done for the purpose of reports to show a careful consideration of alternatives.

BRT would make no sense over here.  You already have the rails.  The rails at present are needed for freight, so we are not ripping them apart.  To the extent that you have a wide ROW, great - separate freight from passenger to the extent practical.  But given that there are places where there is no easy way to widen the corridor to more than two tracks wide, leads me to believe that the only good option is FRA compliant train.