Interborough Express (Triboro RX) Discussion

[P3F]

2 hours ago, Lex said:

Personally, I'd have three tracks along at least 70% of the alignment and mandate all freight operations to use electric locomotives. The third track would be used primarily for daytime freight operations, but a select number of stations would come with island platforms as a backup for passenger service. (Naturally, daytime freight trains would be on the shorter end in order to reduce the odds of conflicts.)

For the parts of the ROW with four trackways, they could use the northernmost one for freight trains, second to north for westbound trains, second to south for island platforms, and the southernmost track for eastbound trains. At least that would line up with the pre-existing abandoned island platform at East New York.

Edited January 8, 2022 by P3F

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 1/5/2022 at 9:48 PM, R10 2952 said:

That's exactly my point.  The financial revenue projections are currently very scarce, and they will likely remain so for the foreseeable future.  

Remember that the TRX, if built, will make it easier to travel between "outer" areas of Brooklyn and "outer" areas of Queens without going through Manhattan. That will free up capacity on the "inner zone"sections of connecting routes, and that is where much of the ridership/revenue growth will happen.   

 

On 1/6/2022 at 12:49 PM, P3F said:

If they end up determining that they want to start running service, I'm curious what type of rolling stock it would use. Would they buy a fleet of LRVs, or just have some R211s specced out to FRA standards? Probably wouldn't be too different from what SIR is getting, even though SIR is no longer required to conform to FRA standards. If they do use some kind of heavy rail cars, I would expect them to have 4-car trains, maybe 5 cars at most.

By the time they announce that alternatives are "being developed," the final decisions will already have been made. 

[RapidoNewLook]

19 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But they already live near an active rail line. Which already hosts loud diesel-powered freight trains. While there are some segments of the line that are single track, I believe they do have room to widen to at least double track. 

Loud diesel powered trains once nightly is a lot less disturbing than loud subway trains all day every day. 

[Lex]

3 hours ago, RapidoNewLook said:

Loud diesel powered trains once nightly is a lot less disturbing than loud subway trains all day every day. 

That's assuming quite a bit about operations.

[Around the Horn]

On 1/6/2022 at 10:47 PM, R10 2952 said:

You're not getting it, as you say, because you apparently see Triboro RX as a viable plan that the MTA can offload yet-to-be fully determined cash into, whereas I see Triboro RX as unrealistic pie-in-the-sky.

Although there are exceptions, most people in Hunt's Point, West Farms and Parkchester are trying to get to Midtown and below; not Glendale or Flatlands.  I grew up across the street from the Bay Ridge Branch in Middle Village- much of nobody was clamoring for light rail along a north/south freight secondary that would either get them to derelict factories in Mott Haven on one end or abandoned warehouses in Sunset Park on the other.

With this whole TriboroRX thing, there seems to be a fundamental disconnect between the transit planners and enthusiasts, versus the everyday people who live along the Bay Ridge Branch.  Go to communities along the line like Ridgewood or Midwood, and ask them if this thing is a priority on their list compared to say, restoring LIRR commuter rail service on the Rockaway or Lower Montauk branches.

Better yet, ask the folks up in Crotona Park or Claremont whether they'd rather have a subway to Manhattan, or a dinky rail shuttle to West Elmhurst.  A misplaced priority is a misplaced priority, that's how I see it.

 

It's a good thing we have ridership projections then:

(if we were to classify this as a commuter rail, it would be the 7th highest ridership system in the country)

https://new.mta.info/projects/interborough-express

Edited January 9, 2022 by Around the Horn
added link

[R10 2952]

Say what you all will, but I still think sending the Second Avenue Line into the Bronx is a higher priority.  Compared to SAS, or the Cross-Harbor Freight Tunnel for that matter, this Triboro RX proposal is lower down on the priority list as far as I'm concerned.  I take it about as seriously as deBozo's half-baked plan to put a Brooklyn-Queens streetcar in from a few years ago.

God forbid anyone should have a contrary opinion around here...

Edited January 9, 2022 by R10 2952

[RapidoNewLook]

The question isn't so much about priorities as much as it's about what will be ready for passengers first, with this the infrastructure is mostly there. Contrast that with SAS, which will probably take another year or 10 to get shovels in the ground, and then at least a decade to build.

[rbrome]

11 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

It's a good thing we have ridership projections then:

And it would certainly change over time. Once this is built, there will be new opportunities for transit-oriented development. People will choose to live in places they wouldn't have otherwise, and take jobs they wouldn't have otherwise. Whole new commuting patterns will emerge over time, and it should be an economic boon to the neighborhoods it serves. 

And as someone else pointed out, it will provide a relief for capacity-constrained lines that do serve Manhattan, since so many trips between Brooklyn and and Queens currently require a ridiculous trek through Manhattan. 

[Lex]

I should also mention that the area around Broadway Junction is a target for redevelopment. (Before anyone claims this is irrelevant, Broadway Junction is along the planned alignment.)

 

[bobtehpanda]

21 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Say what you all will, but I still think sending the Second Avenue Line into the Bronx is a higher priority.  Compared to SAS, or the Cross-Harbor Freight Tunnel for that matter, this Triboro RX proposal is lower down on the priority list as far as I'm concerned.  I take it about as seriously as deBozo's half-baked plan to put a Brooklyn-Queens streetcar in from a few years ago.

God forbid anyone should have a contrary opinion around here...

Dude, no one is personally attacking you.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from questioning and debate. This is a forum. That's what the whole point is.

[bobtehpanda]

On 1/6/2022 at 1:28 PM, GojiMet86 said:

LRV stands for Light Rail Vehicle. That's the common name given to many different models in the United States. I just really hope this is rail and not a BRT. Preferably heavy rail, most likely mainline, then light rail.

For what its worth, RiverLine in Trenton is considered "light rail" in the US, but the Stadler GTW it uses is actually used as a mainline rail vehicle by most of its operators.

The definition of light rail is very arbitrary.

[Lex]

15 hours ago, RapidoNewLook said:

The question isn't so much about priorities as much as it's about what will be ready for passengers first, with this the infrastructure is mostly there. Contrast that with SAS, which will probably take another year or 10 to get shovels in the ground, and then at least a decade to build.

All for maybe 5 stations (if we even get that many)...

[N6 Limited]

1 hour ago, RapidoNewLook said:

The question isn't so much about priorities as much as it's about what will be ready for passengers first, with this the infrastructure is mostly there.

Speaking of which, do you think they'd open it in segments?

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

Speaking of which, do you think they'd open it in segments?

That's actually a very interesting question. Here's a follow-up: if they were to open it in segments, what would they open first?

[mrsman]

7 hours ago, Vulturious said:

That's actually a very interesting question. Here's a follow-up: if they were to open it in segments, what would they open first?

I could see this opening in segments, with the southern section (Bay Ridge - East New York) opening first.  That section could replace (or redirect) some cross-Brooklyn bus service and provide a service shortcut for passengers from Southern Brooklyn who may be heading to Jamaica or JFK.

[bobtehpanda]

8 hours ago, Vulturious said:

That's actually a very interesting question. Here's a follow-up: if they were to open it in segments, what would they open first?

Probably south.

I'd imagine that the yard would be in the Sunset Park end; it does run in the vicinity of Fresh Pond but my understanding is that NY&A is already very busy over there with freight in the yard.

[CenSin]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Probably south.

I'd imagine that the yard would be in the Sunset Park end; it does run in the vicinity of Fresh Pond but my understanding is that NY&A is already very busy over there with freight in the yard.

If they connected with the subway at both ends and in between, it would probably easy OOS train movements between yards, and the could finally get a share of yard closer to its southern terminus.

Fresh Pond, East New York, Canarsie, Sunset Park, Coney Island, and maybe even Livonia could be attached to this “backbone” connection depending on what is allowed to run on the tracks. No more doubling back through Manhattan over 2 bridges/tunnels to get trains from Brooklyn to Brooklyn.

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, CenSin said:

If they connected with the subway at both ends and in between, it would probably easy OOS train movements between yards, and the could finally get a share of yard closer to its southern terminus.

Fresh Pond, East New York, Canarsie, Sunset Park, Coney Island, and maybe even Livonia could be attached to this “backbone” connection depending on what is allowed to run on the tracks. No more doubling back through Manhattan over 2 bridges/tunnels to get trains from Brooklyn to Brooklyn.

Your next to last sentence makes more sense, to me,  than most of the previous postings I have read so far. Most seem to put the cart well before the horse. Exactly what type of equipment would be utilized on this "line" ? I happen to think the Cross Harbor Railroad component is more valuable than the commuter option , which is 60 years too late in my opinion. It would be beneficial to the South Brooklyn west-east bus network  to a point. As far as projected ridership numbers are concerned  how many posters over 20-25 years old believe any  stats ? Come on now. My take.YMMV.Carry on.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Well, yes, we don't know what type of equipment will be utilized on the line to transport potential riders. If something productive comes from this study, then we might. Though I'm pretty sure it won't be boxcars, Amtrak Amfleets or maglev. But I'd like to hazard a guess that it'll likely be some sort of railcar that doesn't require a physical or a time separation from the freight trains that currently run there in keeping with FRA regulations. That's most likely to be a railcar closer in size to Metro-North's M8 or LIRR's M7 or M9 rolling stock than to Transit's R160 or R211 cars, but with interiors closer to those of R160s or R211s (with way more seats obviously). It should blur the lines between transit and mainline passenger rail a bit. The way London Overground does. And frankly, we could really use a bit more of that in North America. The old school attitude of "Transit is Transit and Railroad is Railroad and never the two shall meet" is a big reason why we hamper our rail infrastructure from working better to transport people and force them to choose driving over transit. That attitude in the US, and Canada to a lesser extent, has got to go.

Honestly, I don't expect the ridership numbers to rival that of a full-built Second Ave Subway with extensions to The Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens, but I would like to think that it could put a dent in the amount of cars getting onto the Belt Parkway or Kings Highway. And give some much-needed relief to the busy crosstown bus routes in South Brooklyn

Edited January 11, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[GojiMet86]

28 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Well, yes, we don't know what type of equipment will be utilized on the line to transport potential riders. If something productive comes from this study, then we might. Though I'm pretty sure it won't be boxcars, Amtrak Amfleets or maglev. But I'd like to hazard a guess that it'll likely be some sort of railcar that doesn't require a physical or a time separation from the freight trains that currently run there in keeping with FRA regulations. That's most likely to be a railcar closer in size to Metro-North's M8 or LIRR's M7 or M9 rolling stock than to Transit's R160 or R211 cars, but with interiors closer to those of R160s or R211s (with way more seats obviously). It should blur the lines between transit and mainline passenger rail a bit. The way London Overground does. And frankly, we could really use a bit more of that in North America. The old school attitude of "Transit is Transit and Railroad is Railroad and never the two shall meet" is a big reason why we hamper our rail infrastructure from working better to transport people and force them to choose driving over transit. That attitude in the US, and Canada to a lesser extent, has got to go.

Honestly, I don't expect the ridership numbers to rival that of a full-built Second Ave Subway with extensions to The Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens, but I would like to think that it could put a dent in the amount of cars getting onto the Belt Parkway or Kings Highway. And give some much-needed relief to the busy crosstown bus routes in South Brooklyn

 

Maybe they can use the converted Underground D-Stock that is being tested.

[Eric B]

On 1/7/2022 at 9:47 PM, trainfan22 said:

My Ideal interborough express would be from Bay Ridge to the unused level at Roosevelt IND, and tunnel to LGA Airport (with a stop at Northern Blvd) and terminate there using Light Rail equipment. 

I realize that the line going to LGA via an tunnel is an pipe dream due to the streets it would have to travel under being in residential areas... I remember how much of an mess the SAS made of the Upper East Side.

But man I'd love for this to be Light Rail, I already have the equipment envisioned in my head, LRV's wrapped in the Cuomo scheme the buses use with R211 features. On the side of the cars would have an sliver and blue "MTA Light Rail" logo similar to what the subway cars have. 

I think this proposed route would travel from Bay Ridge to the unused Roosevelt IND level and terminate there since the Roosevelt Ave - Jackson Heights station is only a couple blocks away from the ROW this proposed rail service would travel on.

LGA is a great idea! Wonder why they didn't think of that, since they're looking for alternatives to Cuomo's plan. I think that would be better than extending the Astoria line.

The track already runs right next to the BQE, so you would branch off and follow the highway to the airport. (Anther branch eading to the unused Roosevelt Av. staton would be nice as well, but that would be digging under the street for 3 blocks. Doable, but would increase the time, cost and disuption to the streets). 

(From the time they began tossing this idea around any years ago, I always got the sense the line was planned to be LRV's. I guess tat could have changed by now).

Edited January 11, 2022 by Eric B

[GojiMet86]

I saw these posted in an FB infrastructure group. I don't what the exact source is (from what PDF it came from, around 2014 I think), but if it is any indication, LaGuardia Airport does seem like a possibility. This proposed track diagram shows the following services:

Brooklyn Army - Jackson Heights (Rush Hours)

Brooklyn Army - LaGuardia Airport (All Times)

Brooklyn Army - Co-Op City (Rush Hours+Late Nights)

East New York - Co-Op City (Weekends+Middays)

 

And it proposes the following TPH:

- The Bronx branch, from Co-Op to Jackson Heights:

8-10 (Peak)

4 (Evenings+Late Nights)

 

- The LaGuardia Branch, from LGA to Jackson Heights:

20 (Peak)

10 (Evenings)

4 (Late Nights)

 

- Jackson Heights to East New York:

34 (Peak)

14 (Evenings)

4 (Late Nights)

 

- East New York to Brooklyn Army Bay Ridge:

24 (Peak)

10-14 (Evenings)

4 (Late Nights)

[Orion 7]

18 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Well, yes, we don't know what type of equipment will be utilized on the line to transport potential riders. If something productive comes from this study, then we might. Though I'm pretty sure it won't be boxcars, Amtrak Amfleets or maglev. But I'd like to hazard a guess that it'll likely be some sort of railcar that doesn't require a physical or a time separation from the freight trains that currently run there in keeping with FRA regulations. That's most likely to be a railcar closer in size to Metro-North's M8 or LIRR's M7 or M9 rolling stock than to Transit's R160 or R211 cars, but with interiors closer to those of R160s or R211s (with way more seats obviously). It should blur the lines between transit and mainline passenger rail a bit. The way London Overground does. And frankly, we could really use a bit more of that in North America. The old school attitude of "Transit is Transit and Railroad is Railroad and never the two shall meet" is a big reason why we hamper our rail infrastructure from working better to transport people and force them to choose driving over transit. That attitude in the US, and Canada to a lesser extent, has got to go.

Honestly, I don't expect the ridership numbers to rival that of a full-built Second Ave Subway with extensions to The Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens, but I would like to think that it could put a dent in the amount of cars getting onto the Belt Parkway or Kings Highway. And give some much-needed relief to the busy crosstown bus routes in South Brooklyn

I honestly get the feeling that this service could end up being an entirely new MTA branch, similar to SIR, but independent of the subway. It's too long to be a Light rail or bus rapid transit line, and too short to be an MNRR/LIRR line unless it offshoots from existing trackage from those services that are still active. It would do best in my option as either a full on subway line (with some major upgrades and expansions) or as i mentioned above, an SIR type service.

[mrsman]

I see alot of this as a proof in concept service.  If MTA seriously provides sufficient funding to build and operate it can be a huge opportunity for better, more frequent operation of railroad corridors within city limits.

The line should be frequent.  The line should be affordable - subway fare with free transfers to nearby subways (as if it were a closed transfer) and transfers to buses (in a similar vein to existing bus-subway transfers).  While I don't beleive 24 hour service is necessary, service should definitely be running 7 days a week and at frequent enough intervals during the operating period to not need to rely on a schedule.  (Something like every 10 minutes.)

The line should operate a fleet similar to that of LIRR.  For purposes of governance, it would seem that it should operate under its own authority, like the Staten Island Railroad and not as a subsidiary of NYCT or LIRR.

Other possilble lines that can garner similar treatment in the future can (should) be the Lower Montauk branch and the Atlantic-Jamaica branch "shuttle" after ESA is completed.  It would also be nice if certain sections of existing railroads be operated in a similar way, with frequent service and lower fates, but realistically those will have to be operated by either LIRR or MNRR, like Port Washington branch withiin the city, Atlantic branch between Rosedale and Jamaica, Hudson line branch into Penn Station, and New Haven line branch into Penn Station.

[HSRR]

I'd like to point out that Gov Horchul wants to study the cross harbor freight tunnel. if that gets built, wouldn't that increase the amount of freight traffic on the line? And in turn eliminate the possibilities of a bus way or light rail? Unless in the case of a bus way, would it be built over the row? Or for light rail would be time separated mandated by the FRA?