Idea: The Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

[R110B]

if they closed it that would be horrible.

[AgedPolaris]

Wow, there's a lot of interesting & great points being brought up here. I'm looking at pictures of the ROW on oldnyc.com, and it seems like this could easily made back into a very manageable subway extension. It was brought up that bus service along Woodhaven blvd. is frequent and generally pretty crowded, (total truth) and also one thing which I figure I'd add to the table are plans I've heard about trying to revitalize the Rockaways as a viable destination/summer area. I don't agree with all the rumors I've heard going around... especially those about plans to open it up as a gambling/casino corridor a la Atlantic City, but you can't deny that already the Rockaways are experiencing a housing boom, and we might be seeing a return to the Rockaways of old.

 

What better way to help this urban renewal along than something like a train extension on the old ROW? It could have physical connections or Metrocard transfers to the above Jamaica Ave, and then of course somehow meet up with the down to the Rockaways. (The other thing that TransitGuy put into his original map was a extenstion into Queens Village... which would be very nice!)

 

We're not talking huge stretch of service here distance-wise, so even in theory, why would an LIRR spur make sense? There's the subject of having to pay for two separate services deterring ridership, the lower frequency of service, and the fact that you can't just connect the LIRR to the subway at Rockaway Blvd. (Kind of ironic being that the IND Rockaway line was originally part of the LIRR.) But that's the point, if the LIRR wanted anything to do with branches in this part of Queens, they wouldn't have given up on them. The LIRR has their main line, and to me that's about all they care about west of Jamaica. The Montauk branch to LIC lost it's intermediate stations, and... doesn't even run a normal schedule.

 

As a subway extension:

 

* People who already use the train would have enhanced service and a connection to QBL. In turn, the Rockaways seem like a more realistic neighborhood to live in commute-wise if they work in/around Manhattan.

* Stations along now abandoned ROW would offer a quicker means of getting into/out of Manhattan and other areas of the city to residents. The linking of the QBL trains to the in areas like Rego Park & Woodhaven would be beneficial.

* I imagine as a subway line, the rolling stock is already pretty much there, I could easily see sets of 75 foot R44/R46s working very well on service such as this. As a few of you have said, extend the , and with the inclusion of the current Rockaway Park , the rolling stock should be there. Obviously the would no longer be needed.

* As far as with connections to yards, it's much more feasible as a subway extension than a LIRR branch.

 

Of course, for LIRR integration, there's the Forest Hills station just a couple stops after the proposed cut-off at Rego Park.

 

I enjoy riding the subway and LIRR both, but I can't see any reason for the LIRR to take over this unused ROW. They're in the habit of closing their zone 1 stations, not opening new ones. Plus an extra $4-$5.75 or however much the fare would be... would deter ridership.

 

And light rail? That would call for all new rolling stock and such. Seems unnecessary to me.

[Messino]

I know throughout the years people have been infatuated with this old rail line and my friends and I grew up playing on the old tracks throughout our youth and there always have been rumors of the MTA rebuilding it, but the fact of the matter is, it would not be feasable to re-use this line.

 

First off where the tracks go underground below the current in use LIRR tracks in Rego Park the tunnel/tracks has been filled in with rocks and buildings have been built over them so it would be very hard to build a tunnel leading to where the tracks are now terminated in rego park. Also the MTA would have to rebuild all of the over passes. There are also now businesses and apartment building parking lots where the tracks cross over union turnpike and the MTA no longer owns that land as it was sold to the people who developled the apartment buildings. Longer down the line through forest park would be very difficult to rebuild as well. The MTA would also have to completely rebuild the overpass that streches from Atlantic avenue all the way to the point were the old LIRR tracks meet up with the A train tracks. Not to mention all of the electrical substations they would have to install to get power to the tracks and all but 1 or 2 of the old substations are now gone and the property has been sold to businesses.

 

It would be a nice idea and people always talk about it every few years who live in the area but it would not be econimically feasable at all because it would run into the hundreds of millions if not low billions to get it up and running and really it boils down to the same reason they closed the line in the first place, it would not generate enough revenue to make it all worth while not to mention the protestes from the people who have newely built houses along the line.

 

Its a nice dream but thats all it will ever be.

[AgedPolaris]

I know throughout the years people have been infatuated with this old rail line and my friends and I grew up playing on the old tracks throughout our youth and there always have been rumors of the MTA rebuilding it, but the fact of the matter is, it would not be feasable to re-use this line.

 

First off where the tracks go underground below the current in use LIRR tracks in Rego Park the tunnel/tracks has been filled in with rocks and buildings have been built over them so it would be very hard to build a tunnel leading to where the tracks are now terminated in rego park. Also the MTA would have to rebuild all of the over passes. There are also now businesses and apartment building parking lots where the tracks cross over union turnpike and the MTA no longer owns that land as it was sold to the people who developled the apartment buildings. Longer down the line through forest park would be very difficult to rebuild as well. The MTA would also have to completely rebuild the overpass that streches from Atlantic avenue all the way to the point were the old LIRR tracks meet up with the A train tracks. Not to mention all of the electrical substations they would have to install to get power to the tracks and all but 1 or 2 of the old substations are now gone and the property has been sold to businesses.

 

It would be a nice idea and people always talk about it every few years who live in the area but it would not be econimically feasable at all because it would run into the hundreds of millions if not low billions to get it up and running and really it boils down to the same reason they closed the line in the first place, it would not generate enough revenue to make it all worth while not to mention the protestes from the people who have newely built houses along the line.

 

Its a nice dream but thats all it will ever be.

 

On a realistic scale, I doubt it will happen anytime soon, if at all. But if it were to happen, I don't think the LIRR would have anything to do with it - it would be an NYCTA project. Plus that sign at 63rd drive is very belittling...

 

"To JAMAICA and ROCKAWAY."

 

I never knew they were so close to having such an extension.

[Trainmaster5]

I know throughout the years people have been infatuated with this old rail line and my friends and I grew up playing on the old tracks throughout our youth and there always have been rumors of the MTA rebuilding it, but the fact of the matter is, it would not be feasable to re-use this line.

 

First off where the tracks go underground below the current in use LIRR tracks in Rego Park the tunnel/tracks has been filled in with rocks and buildings have been built over them so it would be very hard to build a tunnel leading to where the tracks are now terminated in rego park. Also the MTA would have to rebuild all of the over passes. There are also now businesses and apartment building parking lots where the tracks cross over union turnpike and the MTA no longer owns that land as it was sold to the people who developled the apartment buildings. Longer down the line through forest park would be very difficult to rebuild as well. The MTA would also have to completely rebuild the overpass that streches from Atlantic avenue all the way to the point were the old LIRR tracks meet up with the A train tracks. Not to mention all of the electrical substations they would have to install to get power to the tracks and all but 1 or 2 of the old substations are now gone and the property has been sold to businesses.

 

It would be a nice idea and people always talk about it every few years who live in the area but it would not be econimically feasable at all because it would run into the hundreds of millions if not low billions to get it up and running and really it boils down to the same reason they closed the line in the first place, it would not generate enough revenue to make it all worth while not to mention the protestes from the people who have newely built houses along the line.

 

Its a nice dream but thats all it will ever be.

 

The forgotten wild card in all of these posts is "eminent domain". The State of New York, or the City of New York, by themselves, or through the , can do what they wish with the property in question. Protest all you want but if the project is deemed to be in the public's good ..... Just look at the intersection of Flatbush and Atlantic avenues in Brooklyn and you'll see what I'm getting at. If this were a "shovel ready" project NYS,NYC, and the would be backing up the moving trucks now to get that Federal stimulus money and the public be damned. Never underestimate these guys. Heck, if the state and wanted to third track the LIRR mainline all the way to Greenport who could stop them?

[Messino]

The forgotten wild card in all of these posts is "eminent domain". The State of New York, or the City of New York, by themselves, or through the , can do what they wish with the property in question. Protest all you want but if the project is deemed to be in the public's good ..... Just look at the intersection of Flatbush and Atlantic avenues in Brooklyn and you'll see what I'm getting at. If this were a "shovel ready" project NYS,NYC, and the would be backing up the moving trucks now to get that Federal stimulus money and the public be damned. Never underestimate these guys. Heck, if the state and wanted to third track the LIRR mainline all the way to Greenport who could stop them?

 

Eminent domain can only be used in certain scenarios. There is no way the city can pull that wild card out when the land has been sold to apartment buildings and shopping malls due to the fact this this route of transporation is not a vital means of public transport. There are already existing alternative routes that accomplish transport to these areas. I could see if there were no other means of transportation what so ever that would lead to these areas but this is not the case. Since it is not vital to rebuild this rail line, eminent domain would be 100% out of the question. Seriously it would cost billions to revive this line, and it would boil down to what I said before. The LIRR shut down this branch in 1969 because it was not making enough money and it still would not be profitable. The only way I could see them even thinking about reviving this train line is if they built a Disney land or a Six Flags great adventures type amusement park in the Rockaways which was actully proposed a long time ago but never came to be. The most that would ever happen would possibly be the same as what happened to the elevated CSX lines on the west side of Manhattan that were turned into a city park.

[AgedPolaris]

The most that would ever happen would possibly be the same as what happened to the elevated CSX lines on the west side of Manhattan that were turned into a city park.

 

Kind of what I was thinking, too. But since this isn't the west side of Manhattan, I imagine it will just stay as it is, unless super-gentrification occurs, then maybe it will become a stip-mall in the sky.

[Trainmaster5]

Eminent domain can only be used in certain scenarios. There is no way the city can pull that wild card out when the land has been sold to apartment buildings and shopping malls due to the fact this this route of transporation is not a vital means of public transport. There are already existing alternative routes that accomplish transport to these areas. I could see if there were no other means of transportation what so ever that would lead to these areas but this is not the case. Since it is not vital to rebuild this rail line, eminent domain would be 100% out of the question. Seriously it would cost billions to revive this line, and it would boil down to what I said before. The LIRR shut down this branch in 1969 because it was not making enough money and it still would not be profitable. The only way I could see them even thinking about reviving this train line is if they built a Disney land or a Six Flags great adventures type amusement park in the Rockaways which was actully proposed a long time ago but never came to be. The most that would ever happen would possibly be the same as what happened to the elevated CSX lines on the west side of Manhattan that were turned into a city park.

 

While I agree 100% with you about the costs entailed in such a project I'd like to see who really owns the properties that abut the land in question. I do remember some LIRR workers telling some of us TA workers about people building structures on railroad property in Queens along the mainline between Woodside and Jamaica, and a few other areas. They couldn't wait to hear the wails of people who had built storage sheds, etc. on what they assumed was derelict unused property. That's the type of land I was referring to. As far as the LIRR shutting down the line that goes without saying. As a piece of the railroad it couldn't be profitable to keep open. How many people would opt to pay LIRR prices when the subway or bus gave more options for a lower price. The LIRR had no interest in it's NYC lines at all except as a waystation or connection to the mainline and midtown. Look how much service was cut within the city limits in the last 40-50 years by the LIRR. That's why I thought the O.P. brought up the question in the first place. It wouldn't be profitable as a LIRR project but it might make more sense as an subway line. BTW if a new amusement park or a Starrett / CO-OP City development of that size were built out there I think the O.P was on the right track. The railroad wouldn't touch it but subways would. Just my 2 cents.

[yoshi]

i think this would be a great idea for a subway due to the fact it would connect so many line together and make it much easer to get from the to the without having to get off at woodhaven and transfer to a bus thought it would be nice to see a new tour set up sines its been a while sines the last one and a chance to get better photo of the route

[Forest Glen]

The most they could build is a light rail but not a subway or LIRR. NIMBY's would oppose it.

[yoshi]

i see your point and i live on one of the dead end streets the the rails run behind and it would be nice to see some use put to it instead of it just roting but a light rail would be a good idea sines it would be much quieter so there should be less complaints from people thought i wounder how the route looks now

[TheKorean]

Not necessarily. Subway service to the Rockaways is abysmal. Also, people in Rockaway Park are snooty enough to pay the extra money for the LIRR.

 

Hey hey hey, I prefer LIRR when going to Rockaway. Faster and no transfer needed except at Altantic Avenue.

[67thAve]

I'd possibly reconstruct it as a BRT route. That would allow the buses on Woodhaven Bvld. to have an alternative.

[Far Rock Depot]

Hey hey hey, I prefer LIRR when going to Rockaway. Faster and no transfer needed except at Altantic Avenue.

 

Its not that much faster. Its a one hour trip from end to end. the Far Rock stop is just inside queens. its a 2 to 3 block walk to Q22/(A) service to continue down Rockaway, which makes the trip longer. How do i know, Snow use to shut down service and i had no choice but to use the LIRR from Manhattan to the Rock. one good thing, i was able to have a beer on the LIRR.

 

truth is, not many people board the LIRR at Far Rock. And remember, LIRR abandoned service along the ROW and in Rockaway. Its the reason why the city took over in the early 50s and the Q53 was created.

Subway service along the ROW would be the best option. with Q53 buses being crowded and the Q21 extended north of Liberty Ave to Queens center mall, the next service increase along Woodhaven/Cross Bay would logically be re opening that ROW as a subway. The terminal station @ Roosevelt is already there. simplify the original routing plan to avoid middle Village would bring the cost of rebuilding the line down.

[Grand Concourse]

The most they could build is a light rail but not a subway or LIRR. NIMBY's would oppose it.

 

Why must the solution be an LRT? If you wanted a faster connection from the Rockaways to Queens Blvd, just make the Q53 stop at only Jamaica and Liberty avs and let the Q21 and Q11 handle the riders.

[Far Rock Depot]

Why must the solution be an LRT? If you wanted a faster connection from the Rockaways to Queens Blvd, just make the Q53 stop at only Jamaica and Liberty avs and let the Q21 and Q11 handle the riders.

 

the reason the 21 was extended in the first place was because they needed more buses along woodhaven and to help the 53. taking away stops on the 53

would make the 11/21 more crowded. But i do agree, the solution doesnt always have to me an LRT. first of all, NIMBY's would also oppose an LRT. they are NIMBY's. they dont want anything.

Now a Light Rail wont help on the ROW. even if you put the LRT on woodhaven to replace the buses, theres still gonna be a demand for a subway.

[Grand Concourse]

True. But they really did bog down the Q53 though with all those additional stops.

 

Exactly, a LRT will still be subjected to the same traffic problems as a bus. And should a car be stupidly parked on the tracks, the LRT can't go around the obstruction the way a bus can. [Assuming the LRT is on Woodhaven that is.]

Still as you said, NIMBYs won't accept a LRT on the structure either, no matter how 'quiet' the train is.

[Messino]

Fact of the matter is NIMBYS have no real say in the long run, if GUVT or MTA wants it to happen it will. Its all about $ not NIMBYS complaints. If they want to build a highway in your backyard, you either sell your house or deal with it cause they are going to build the highway either way.

[yoshi]

True. But they really did bog down the Q53 though with all those additional stops.

 

Exactly, a LRT will still be subjected to the same traffic problems as a bus. And should a car be stupidly parked on the tracks, the LRT can't go around the obstruction the way a bus can. [Assuming the LRT is on Woodhaven that is.]

Still as you said, NIMBYs won't accept a LRT on the structure either, no matter how 'quiet' the train is.

 

how would a car be parked on the tracks? when the line has bridges that run over the streets

[MTR Admiralty]

Crap, I thought this debate was over already.

Hey hey hey, I prefer LIRR when going to Rockaway. Faster and no transfer needed except at Altantic Avenue.

If you read the earlier posts in this thread, you would know why commuter rail would NOT work, despite faster service. First, the bottom portion is already taken over by the subway. Second, even if it is reactivated as a LIRR line, it won't be profitable because the people there would not want to ride it due to the cost. Tell me the fare of a Zone 1 LIRR fare, and the subway fare. Also the LIRR does not serve Manhattan really well, its only station is Penn, with a future terminal at GCT. Connecting the line to the subway will open greater access to other boroughs as well as other parts of Manhattan.

I'd possibly reconstruct it as a BRT route. That would allow the buses on Woodhaven Bvld. to have an alternative.

I would not. While it is easy to implement, I'm pretty sure the locals would want service to Manhattan. Also, just like the North Shore line in another thread, BRT is not always the answer to everything.

[MAA89]

Here is a video of a Arverne (Rockaway) Civic Association meeting where this subject was discussed:

 

 

The guy doing most of the talking seemed very sure of the idea. I just wanted to put the video on here to gauge the reactions here. Will it really be feasible from a technical POV, and will it cut down the time to Penn Station to 32 minutes (as claimed)? It seems like there is enough consensus that people will use it if they are talking about it so seriously.

[Roadcruiser1]

So now that the is dead what is the new idea here?

[Shortline Bus]

True. But they really did bog down the Q53 though with all those additional stops.

 

Exactly, a LRT will still be subjected to the same traffic problems as a bus. And should a car be stupidly parked on the tracks, the LRT can't go around the obstruction the way a bus can. [Assuming the LRT is on Woodhaven that is.]

Still as you said, NIMBYs won't accept a LRT on the structure either, no matter how 'quiet' the train is.

 

While i support a LRT in the '5' boros on a 'very limited' basis, i don't think it would work on Woodhaven/Cross Bay or the Rock Park LIRR line. Instead a strict bus only lane/"select' bus service would work better i.e (Q53) SBS to replace the current (Q53) IMO.

 

A big issue is also the Cross Bay Bridge which was recently re-bulit would have to be torn up yet again.

[Roadcruiser1]

I suggest that the surviving section of the LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch should be connected to the subway via the IND Queens Boulevard Line in a similar plan from the IND Second System Map.

 

[Guest qjtransitmaster]

I suggest that the surviving section of the LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch should be connected to the subway via the IND Queens Boulevard Line in a similar plan from the IND Second System Map.

 

 

How sad some areas lost rail service should at least try and get it back. The network really is incomplete