MTA to Consider new engines for fleet

[East New York]

NYCTF Exclusive!!!

 

This just in out of East New York!! The MTA is working on a proposal to retrofit an OG CNG with a Cummins ISL-G.

 

If the plan is approved, the Department of Buses will test and evaluate the new engine for a trial period. If all goes well, the entire OG fleet will swap out the Detroit Diesel DDs50G's for the Cummins!

 

As more info is available, you know ya boy ENY will keep you posted!!!

 

So stay tuned and keep it locked!!

[Melvin]

Is there any particular reason they are doing this now?

[SevenEleven]

Is there any particular reason they are doing this now?

 

Maybe its to extend the life of those bad boys and improve its gas consumption. Funny that this had came up. I was on a trip today and one of the guys were talking about having the ISL engine in our Orion V CNGs.

[Nova RTS 9147]

Is there any particular reason they are doing this now?

 

Possibly for fleet/maintenance uniformity. The buses we have that are new (Nova/Orion) feature Cummins engines, and the Novas we will be getting next year will also have Cummins in them. It is also a good possibility that the New Flyer CNGs will have Cummins in them.

[SevenEleven]

It is also a good possibility that the New Flyer CNGs will have Cummins in them.

 

The New Flyer CNGs will have Cummins in them as well. If I'm not mistaken, the Cummins ISL G engine is the only CNG engine available for transit buses.

[Cait Sith]

Not liking this, the S50/S50Gs are fading faster then it seems.

[The Real]

Not liking this, the S50/S50Gs are fading faster then it seems.

 

Thank god, aggrivating ass engine. From a driver standpoint, the only buses worth a darn with the Series 50 is the RTS and the Orion V/CNG. Outside of those two buses, good riddance!

 

Once a Cummins man, ALWAYS a Cummins man!

[Bill from Maspeth]

Maybe its to extend the life of those bad boys and improve its gas consumption. Funny that this had came up. I was on a trip today and one of the guys were talking about having the ISL engine in our Orion V CNGs.

The engines don't use gas!

 

The engines don't even use diesel fuel!

 

The bus is a HYBRID! The DIESEL FUEL powers a generator, it makes electricity, and that electricity that is generated powers the engine!

[aemoreira81]

Not liking this, the S50/S50Gs are fading faster then it seems.

 

They also have terrible climbing power---I have to wonder why the 5510-5769 batch was never repowered with a Cummins ISL. On artics, the S50 appears to underpower the bus.

 

The engines don't use gas!

 

The engines don't even use diesel fuel!

 

The bus is a HYBRID!. The DIESEL FUEL powers a generator, it makes electricity, and that electricity that is generated powers the engine!

 

With a series hybrid, yes (as MTA hybrids are), as the engine is not connected to to any of the wheels. However, on a parallel hybrid (correct me if I am wrong), the engine is connected to the wheels.

[Eric B]

The OG engine is a kind of DD50? I always wondered what exactly the combustion part of the hybrid engine was, but while the DD50 is a four cylinder engine, the hybrids sound like some sort of six cylinder (I would imagine a smaller one). When it starts accelerating, it sometimes sounds almost like a DD6V-92!

A four cylinder engine sounds a little bit more like the 8V-71, except for being four stroke and the distinct "voice" is not as prominent.

 

Is this going to be significantly more efficient in the long run? They supposedly have no money, so why would they be tinkering and buying new engines at a time like this?

[Joel Up Front]

Leave the DD50Gs to the Orion Vs...

[gtNovaBusRTS9369]

Well the DD50's is a stonger engine & more durable than the cummins. However I guess they're trying to make them quieter. Then again it depends whether or not it works. Remeber the 6400's QV got (As mentioned in some other thread) when they first came in they worked poorly with their cummins engines as they were one of the first of their kind. They would have performed better with the DD50 series (Which I hope works out one day). The point is they should be tested before the official thing happens just like what should've happed with the 6400's (if it wasn't done at all) to see if it works out.

[East New York]

They also have terrible climbing power---I have to wonder why the 5510-5769 batch was never repowered with a Cummins ISL. On artics, the S50 appears to underpower the bus.

 

With a series hybrid, yes (as MTA hybrids are), as the engine is not connected to to any of the wheels. However, on a parallel hybrid (correct me if I am wrong), the engine is connected to the wheels.

 

I always wondered why they weren't re-powered as well. When they were new, I remember being on a 5600 on Lex, and the bus would roll uphill without the operator even pressing down on the gas. They should have at least tried to stuff an s60 in there. That would have been a better option as well.

 

Is this going to be significantly more efficient in the long run? They supposedly have no money, so why would they be tinkering and buying new engines at a time like this?

 

If they re-power the OG's they will be around much longer than 12 years. So in the long run, its probably worth it. Not only that, butt the MTA would save money in the long run as well, because the entire CNG fleet will have common engines, with slightly better fuel economy. This way the TA won't have to make another CNG purchase until sometime around 2020.

 

Leave the DD50Gs to the Orion Vs...

 

The V's are on their way out the door, so they will die with the s50G's.

 

Well the DD50's is a stonger engine & more durable than the cummins. However I guess they're trying to make them quieter. Then again it depends whether or not it works. Remeber the 6400's QV got (As mentioned in some other thread) when they first came in they worked poorly with their cummins engines as they were one of the first of their kind. They would have performed better with the DD50 series (Which I hope works out one day). The point is they should be tested before the official thing happens just like what should've happed with the 6400's (if it wasn't done at all) to see if it works out.

 

I have to disagree. Even as a DD fan, even I know the Cummins have more power. Especially when they get older. The s50's loose a lot of power when the start coming of age. The 6400's were poorly maintained by QV when they came in. Notice none of the other depots that have the same series had significant problems at all. QV's buses started to sound like they were struggling just a few years after they were delivered. Not only that, but an s50 never would have worked in the OG's anyway. They are too big for the application. As stated in the opening post, they will be tested extensively before a decision is made.

[LRG]

Dislike

[MHV9218]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[gtNovaBusRTS9369]

I have to disagree. Even as a DD fan, even I know the Cummins have more power. Especially when they get older. The s50's loose a lot of power when the start coming of age. The 6400's were poorly maintained by QV when they came in. Notice none of the other depots that have the same series had significant problems at all. QV's buses started to sound like they were struggling just a few years after they were delivered. Not only that, but an s50 never would have worked in the OG's anyway. They are too big for the application. As stated in the opening post, they will be tested extensively before a decision is made.

 

1. It's not QV's fault for poorly maintaining those Orion's. They didn't get around to dealing with Orions until 2001-02 & those were the Orion V's 505-534 & 612-624 plus they had DDS 50 engines so that's a difference right there in engines. Before them QV was all RTS so this shows that they're experienced in dealing with RTS'es than Orions. Here proof: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22399

 

2. We don't know if Detroit Diesel could make stronger engines than other engines just yet since DD stopped making the engines for non-express aplications. We don't know if a DD engine could of benifited future buses or not. So it's kinda debate I'll just say that.

[East New York]

As usual, thanks for the great info.

 

I'm no expert on these engines, but just out of curiosity, when the MTA had already committed to a Cummins motor with the ISB on the VII Hybrids, what caused the MTA to hold off until the 2005 order for the ISL-G on the CNGs? Was the MTA just sticking with what they knew since the DD50s had been on the O5s?

 

The TA favored DD engines, but the Cummins was, and still is the only engine option available for the hybrids. We don't have any ISL-G's. All of our CNG's have DD's. The last of which came in 2004.

[MHV9218]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[East New York]

1. It's not QV's fault for poorly maintaining those Orion's. They didn't get around to dealing with Orions until 2001-02 & those were the Orion V's 505-534 & 612-624 plus they had DDS 50 engines so that's a difference right there in engines. Before them QV was all RTS so this shows that they're experienced in dealing with RTS'es than Orions. Here proof: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22399

 

2. We don't know if Detroit Diesel could make stronger engines than other engines just yet since DD stopped making the engines for non-express aplications. We don't know if a DD engine could of benifited future buses or not. So it's kinda debate I'll just say that.

 

1. The Orion VII's were new to everyone, so if Manhattanville could maintain them well, then there was no excuse for QV not to be able to do the same. Every depot had experience with DD engines, & RTS'. So that doesn't really make a difference. A good maintenance team can work with anything.

 

2. "We don't know if" is the key part of that sentence! We're talking about right now, and the past. The Cummins have proven themselves over the DD's. That's a fact! Once a DD gets old, it gets really sluggish. Besides, if they were all that great the TA wouldn't be studying a plan to replace them now would they???

 

My bad, I was thinking of the LIB CNGs. Those are ISL-Gs, no?

 

Anyway, thanks for the response.

 

NP.:cool:

 

LIB's NG's have the ISL-G most likely because the DD was discontinued. The only LIB's with the Cummins were the L10 powered 1998 units.

[NX Express]

Cool!

So stay tuned and keep it locked!!

:lock:?

[Joel Up Front]

LIB's NG's have the ISL-G most likely because the DD was discontinued. The only LIB's with the Cummins were the L10 powered 1998 units.

 

And the 1997 order, all but 12 of which are gone. And probably will be after Christmas... want to see 1408? Come to Hempstead on an afternoon and look in one of the N6 bays.

[East New York]

This thread has been dormant for quite some time now. I planned on doing an update last month and totally forgot.

 

has officially decided to go ahead with the re-powering of 2 Orion 07.501 Detroit Diesel/ZF buses.

 

Coaches 7691, and 7746 were selected as the first buses to test and evaluate. If the test period end in success, and funds permit, it a good possibility the MTA will re-power most if not all of the newest CNG's.

 

Stay tuned! I should have a full update(details) within the next month!:cool:

[LRG]

This sucks...the Orion 7s are not even that old, what's the point of having them repowered?

 

I hope some buses manage not to get repowered...it won't be the same. I'm not a fan of Cummins engines at all.

[trainfan22]

IMO, the DD50 was over the hill by the time these Orions came around, looking forward to them being re-powered with Cummins, however, the sound those DD50's make will be missed greatly, esp on the outside.

 

The main thing that bugged me about the OG VII CNG is the way the A/C sounds, it makes this weird noise that is literary damn near painful to listen to. I ridden on 7691 and has the sound too, at first I thought it was the engine but its not, if they changed it to the HAVC the hybrids or the NG CNG uses it would make the ride quality a 100 times better, there's been times when I rode those buses on the B8 and had move up front cause the sound was so bad.

[East New York]

This sucks...the Orion 7s are not even that old, what's the point of having them repowered?

 

I hope some buses manage not to get repowered...it won't be the same. I'm not a fan of Cummins engines at all.

 

Commonality and service life extension. The more ISL's the TA has, the more their maintenance and training costs reduce.

 

Plus, you can take the buses beyond the 12 year cycle. This way, you don't need to place another 40 foot CNG order until at least 2017-18.