Express bus cut talk

[Grand Concourse]

Not totally true. Since there is a recession now and given how much more it costs to run an express bus route [especially underused ones], I would say that such routes should have some runs merged to get more ppl on the fewer buses. Then if that doesn't work, they [MTA] should look into cutting the route and let people take local buses to get to the express bus that takes them to their destination.

I'm not saying just cut the express bus route outright.

The BM4 is the one line that I still think needs a major reduction if not axed.

 

As for the 86th St station - I've been removed from that station for 5 years now. How 'bad' are things there? It didn't seem that bad the few years I rode it from 1999-2005.

[checkmatechamp13]

Here is the data for the per-rider cost of operating express buses vs. local buses:

 

NYCT routes: http://mta.info/mta/news/books/pdf/100125_1031_service2010-nyct.pdf (See pages 8-13 for local bus data, and page 14 for express bus data)

 

MTA Bus routes: http://mta.info/mta/news/books/pdf/100125_1034_service2010-bus.pdf (See page 10 for express bus data and pages 11-12 for local bus data, as well as the BxM7, which couldn't fit onto page 10)

 

You can see that NYCT express routes, as a whole, are much more cost-efficient than the MTA Bus express routes.

 

As far as what the standard should be for keeping the express bus routes, that is up for debate, but the data is indisputable.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Not totally true. Since there is a recession now and given how much more it costs to run an express bus route [especially underused ones], I would say that such routes should have some runs merged to get more ppl on the fewer buses. Then if that doesn't work, they [MTA] should look into cutting the route and let people take local buses to get to the express bus that takes them to their destination.

I'm not saying just cut the express bus route outright.

The BM4 is the one line that I still think needs a major reduction if not axed.

 

As for the 86th St station - I've been removed from that station for 5 years now. How 'bad' are things there? It didn't seem that bad the few years I rode it from 1999-2005.

 

And you haven't stated how much more you would slash the BM4. As I stated previously, it has already been reduced and runs the least compared to the BM1 - BM3 buses.

[Shortline Bus]

And you haven't stated how much more you would slash the BM4. As I stated previously, it has already been reduced and runs the least compared to the BM1 - BM3 buses.

 

Sorry buddy but I agree with Concourse with this one:(. Most of the BM4 Gerristean residents basically only use this line on weekdays. It should be a weekday only route. Gerristean is a politically connected neighborhood that screams every few years when the wants to cut BM4 service. Yet other than rush hours, those Gerristean riders rarely use it.

What not fair is that weekend X27/28 service I am sure had as much as double the ridership than the BM4 and yet the X27/28 Saturday/Sunday service was canned.

 

Dirty little secret guys. In the pre takeover days I worked for a year answering phones for the Command Bus in the late 1990's as a "Customer Service Rep' doing anything from giving schedules to taking complaints. So I know the Spring Creek Depot lines very well.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Sorry buddy but I agree with Concourse with this one:(. Most of the BM4 Gerristean residents basically only use this line on weekdays. It should be a weekday only route. Gerristean is a politically connected neighborhood that screams every few years when the wants to cut BM4 service. Yet other than rush hours, those Gerristean riders rarely use it.

What not fair is that weekend X27/28 service I am sure had as much as double the ridership than the BM4 and yet the X27/28 Saturday/Sunday service was canned.

 

Dirty little secret guys. In the pre takeover days I worked for a year answering phones for the Command Bus in the late 1990's as a "Customer Service Rep' doing anything from giving schedules to taking complaints. So I know the Spring Creek Depot lines very well.

 

I used to use both the X27 and X28 on the weekends when I went back to South Brooklyn, and I can recall quite a few times being the only person the entire trip. I once caught an X28 near Cropsey and 16th Ave and I joked with the B/O about having never reached 57th street so quickly before in my life. Don't get me wrong it wasn't always completely empty, but 30 minute intervals were just way too much for both lines. They should've kept Saturday and Sunday service with hourly intervals like they do on some of the MTA Bus express bus lines.

 

Now regarding Gerritsen Beach, I have a soft spot for the neighborhood because I used to play street hockey with some of the guys over in my neighborhood in Sheepshead Bay and some of my good friends are from GB. They should let them keep it because they only have the B31 and Sheepshead Bay should get the B4 back.... :cool:

 

But as you say, they do have political clout, which is nice to see because as you know, Gerritsen Beach isn't that big.

[checkmatechamp13]

But there's a limit to how much that additional service should be worth (By that, I mean having the BM4 in addition to the B31). It costs $40 per passenger to run Saturday service on the BM4.

 

Plus, with the B31, its not like they are completely cut off from transit service. If they really want to avoid the subway, they can take the B31 over to Ocean Avenue for the BM3.

[Amtrak7]

But there's a limit to how much that additional service should be worth (By that, I mean having the BM4 in addition to the B31). It costs $40 per passenger to run Saturday service on the BM4.

 

Plus, with the B31, its not like they are completely cut off from transit service. If they really want to avoid the subway, they can take the B31 over to Ocean Avenue for the BM3.

 

Remember, the MTA LOVES clock-face scheduling. The BM4 used to have several roundtrips on Saturdays. The MTA doesn't like that because they think the rider can't "remember" it, so it converted it to hourly service. With a clock face schedule, one can't have headways >60 min that are not multiples of 60, and uniform bi-hourly service probably wasn't enough in their thoughts. Also, there are no bi-hourly routes in the system, even "owl" service, so the hourly could have been done to avoid political backlash.

[checkmatechamp13]

Remember, the MTA LOVES clock-face scheduling. The BM4 used to have several roundtrips on Saturdays. The MTA doesn't like that because they think the rider can't "remember" it, so it converted it to hourly service. With a clock face schedule, one can't have headways >60 min that are not multiples of 60, and uniform bi-hourly service probably wasn't enough in their thoughts. Also, there are no bi-hourly routes in the system, even "owl" service, so the hourly could have been done to avoid political backlash.

 

So what was the headway on the BM4? 45 minutes?

 

IMO, if that few people are riding the BM4, it should just be discontinued on Saturdays and replaced with an additional B31 trip per hour (reducing the headway from 20 minutes to 15)

[LRG]

I remember having a discussion with a B/O on here in an older thread on the board pertaining interlining bus fleet on both local and express bus lines and I thought I'd like to bring it here.

 

MCIs are costly to maintain, and the price tag for an MCI in itself is quite high compared to a standard local bus. Before MCIs started becoming prominent in the mid-1990s, the MTA used Suburban-seated RTS' and Orion 5.501s. Some routes still used them for quite some time before eventually switching to MCIs.

 

What I', trying to bring up here is the following: why does the MTA continue on ordering these buses that are just limited to certain types of usage (express/local)? MCIs have been used on Shuttle bus routes when subway lines are out but the chances of seeing an MCI on a local line is slim to none, but if a local bus appears on an express bus line then people raise hell because they have hard seats.

 

The MTA recently ordered some Nova LFS Articulated buses for the Bx12 and M15 bus routes, and we are due to receive 90 Nova LFS 40-ft. buses in a matter of time. The LFS' are nice looking buses. They are sleek, attractive, and are a cross-breed of what could be used on a local bus line as well as an express bus line:

 

 

This is the interior of a NovaBus LFS Suburban. Where I'm getting to is the MTA should consider ordering buses like these that could be used on both express AND local bus routes so they won't have to deadhead empty to the depot...they could instead start their run on a local bus route during midday hours.

 

Please discuss as to whether such a move would be a good or a bad idea and elaborate as to why you feel such and such. The way I see it, it would make sense even though we know making sense means nothing to the MTA, but it would only be most effective if done right.

[checkmatechamp13]

That would be a good idea (to use them in Manhattan during the midday hours), but there might be a union rule against doing that type of interlining (between buses from different depots)

 

What I suggested to the MTA would raise zero opposition from express bus passengers. Instead of sending express buses back to the outer boroughs for the midday, keep most of them in Manhattan for the midday in a Manhattan depot.

 

The reason I say most of them is because some of the buses would be needed to transport B/Os back to the outer boroughs in the late PM rush and back to Manhattan in the early PM rush. Instead of 50 buses deadheading to/from the outer boroughs, there would only be one bus carrying 50 B/Os.

[BZGuy]

That would be a good idea (to use them in Manhattan during the midday hours), but there might be a union rule against doing that type of interlining (between buses from different depots)

 

What I suggested to the MTA would raise zero opposition from express bus passengers. Instead of sending express buses back to the outer boroughs for the midday, keep most of them in Manhattan for the midday in a Manhattan depot.

 

The reason I say most of them is because some of the buses would be needed to transport B/Os back to the outer boroughs in the late PM rush and back to Manhattan in the early PM rush. Instead of 50 buses deadheading to/from the outer boroughs, there would only be one bus carrying 50 B/Os.

 

They already do that. Looking at the Bid Sheets,there are some express runs that leave buses in Manhattan. Mostly at 126st,but now it looks like everybody will be @ Quill come the start of the winter pick. And they are running driver shuttles to the various depots.

 

What I', trying to bring up here is the following: why does the MTA continue on ordering these buses that are just limited to certain types of usage (express/local)? MCIs have been used on Shuttle bus routes when subway lines are out but the chances of seeing an MCI on a local line is slim to none, but if a local bus appears on an express bus line then people raise hell because they have hard seats.

 

Interlining Local and Express is not as simple as it may seem. What I am gonna write will make me seem like an "elitist" but its RealTalk.

 

Your right, people that pay for Express service want some more comfort than a regular local bus provides. They don't want to ride a trashed OG to/from work. Putting suburban seating on a Local run is screaming for it to be vandalized. Then you have the problem of how to interline the runs. People waiting for the x10 are gonna be pissed if the bus is late everyday because it comes off the M42.

 

The MCIs (and future Prevost) have their place in the system. I think the routes need to be rationalized to keep up productivity of the fleet

[Joel Up Front]

And the point of this thread is? "Oh no, they run express buses when there is no one out there to ride them." So what? They're not going to listen to people on some random forum. They'll do what they want about the express buses when they want.

 

That titling every post thing still pisses me off, though.

[Forest Glen]

I remember having a discussion with a B/O on here in an older thread on the board pertaining interlining bus fleet on both local and express bus lines and I thought I'd like to bring it here.

 

MCIs are costly to maintain, and the price tag for an MCI in itself is quite high compared to a standard local bus. Before MCIs started becoming prominent in the mid-1990s, the MTA used Suburban-seated RTS' and Orion 5.501s. Some routes still used them for quite some time before eventually switching to MCIs.

 

What I', trying to bring up here is the following: why does the MTA continue on ordering these buses that are just limited to certain types of usage (express/local)? MCIs have been used on Shuttle bus routes when subway lines are out but the chances of seeing an MCI on a local line is slim to none, but if a local bus appears on an express bus line then people raise hell because they have hard seats.

 

The MTA recently ordered some Nova LFS Articulated buses for the Bx12 and M15 bus routes, and we are due to receive 90 Nova LFS 40-ft. buses in a matter of time. The LFS' are nice looking buses. They are sleek, attractive, and are a cross-breed of what could be used on a local bus line as well as an express bus line:

 

 

This is the interior of a NovaBus LFS Suburban. Where I'm getting to is the MTA should consider ordering buses like these that could be used on both express AND local bus routes so they won't have to deadhead empty to the depot...they could instead start their run on a local bus route during midday hours.

 

Please discuss as to whether such a move would be a good or a bad idea and elaborate as to why you feel such and such. The way I see it, it would make sense even though we know making sense means nothing to the MTA, but it would only be most effective if done right.

 

It's a nice looking bus but you are still incorrect

[B35 via Church]

And the point of this thread is? "Oh no, they run express buses when there is no one out there to ride them." So what? They're not going to listen to people on some random forum. They'll do what they want about the express buses when they want.

 

That titling every post thing still pisses me off, though.

 

well, what's the point of any thread...

 

...and yeah, I find single post titling irritating also...

especially how Garibaldi does it, with the sneering remarks w/i them....

[LRG]

It's a nice looking bus but you are still incorrect

 

You know something...I give up. I'm trying to start a semi-topic in this topic on an important matter but if all you're gonna say is that I'm incorrect and not even give your reason, which I kindly asked for from everyone in the last paragraph then what's the point?

 

I'm done with this subject. You guys can continue discussing your precious X16s, X32s, X37s, X38s, X42s, X90s, this that and the third. I'll just continue using the subway and bus like an average commuter...might as well just participate in threads that participate in local buses and subways for what it's worth. Good f**kin night!!!

[Forest Glen]

Good

[B35 via Church]

seriously lol....

 

yo, this thread pissed off mad people....

[Forest Glen]

At this point I don't give a f*ck.

[B35 via Church]

case in point.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I remember having a discussion with a B/O on here in an older thread on the board pertaining interlining bus fleet on both local and express bus lines and I thought I'd like to bring it here.

 

MCIs are costly to maintain, and the price tag for an MCI in itself is quite high compared to a standard local bus. Before MCIs started becoming prominent in the mid-1990s, the MTA used Suburban-seated RTS' and Orion 5.501s. Some routes still used them for quite some time before eventually switching to MCIs.

 

What I', trying to bring up here is the following: why does the MTA continue on ordering these buses that are just limited to certain types of usage (express/local)? MCIs have been used on Shuttle bus routes when subway lines are out but the chances of seeing an MCI on a local line is slim to none, but if a local bus appears on an express bus line then people raise hell because they have hard seats.

 

The MTA recently ordered some Nova LFS Articulated buses for the Bx12 and M15 bus routes, and we are due to receive 90 Nova LFS 40-ft. buses in a matter of time. The LFS' are nice looking buses. They are sleek, attractive, and are a cross-breed of what could be used on a local bus line as well as an express bus line:

 

 

This is the interior of a NovaBus LFS Suburban. Where I'm getting to is the MTA should consider ordering buses like these that could be used on both express AND local bus routes so they won't have to deadhead empty to the depot...they could instead start their run on a local bus route during midday hours.

 

Please discuss as to whether such a move would be a good or a bad idea and elaborate as to why you feel such and such. The way I see it, it would make sense even though we know making sense means nothing to the MTA, but it would only be most effective if done right.

 

BZGuy hit it right on the nose. Express bus riders are paying a premium for a premium service and they should get extra comfort. I don't know if you've seen the RTS's with the coach style seating, but once they were used for the local lines (i.e. Ulmer Park Depot lines) those seats got turn apart, so for that reason alone it would be a bad idea. Imagine the cost to constantly replace broken or ripped up seats, overhead lights, etc.

[Cait Sith]

BZGuy hit it right on the nose. Express bus riders are paying a premium for a premium service and they should get extra comfort. I don't know if you've seen the RTS's with the coach style seating, but once they were used for the local lines (i.e. Ulmer Park Depot lines) those seats got turn apart, so for that reason alone it would be a bad idea. Imagine the cost to constantly replace broken or ripped up seats, overhead lights, etc.

 

I've been on MCIs with seats torn apart, whats your point?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

seriously lol....

 

yo, this thread pissed off mad people....

 

I had read the express bus threads in here and it was the main reason I joined actually to try to understand the railing on express buses and also shed some light on express buses because to be honest, it is often overlooked except for when cuts are discussed. Perhaps the fact that they aren't really advertised is the reason why some lines don't do so well. If you think about it, I would like to compare all of the subway lines in the system and see which ones have the lowest ridership and if any that were recently cut were cut due to low ridership and then compare that with express bus ridership and cuts.

 

I think the main reason the MTA keeps express buses, even ones that don't do so well is the whole "network coverage thing". They understand that express buses generally run in suburban areas with no subway and perhaps if they went and axed every line that wasn't packed, you could argue that they were bias against suburban areas by constantly reducing their service when ridership wasn't up to their standards. Afterall, their thinking is that as a public agency they have a resposnsbility to provide everyone with a rapid form of transportation, be it in urban areas or suburban areas.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I've been on MCIs with seats torn apart, whats your point?

 

The point is that if you used them on local lines, this would become a bigger problem because they would certainly be torn up as show by the ripped up seats I consistently witnessed on RTS's that had suburban seating and were switched for local bus service out of Ulmer Park Depot (i.e. B64). I do see torn seats on express buses, but it's a rarity and it's usually on buses that are a good 10 years old and not on the newer MCIs.

 

In fact many of the MCIs being used on MTA Bus are in pristine condition and some of them are or will be 6 or 7 years old soon. I don't think that would be the case if they were used on local lines.

[checkmatechamp13]

He's saying that, for $5.50 per ride, there shouldn't be any torn seats.

 

IMO, for $5.50, you do get a lot of value. You get a fast ride without having to stand (and it is a luxury to have a seat when the nearby subway line is crushloaded), and, generally, it is a much more peaceful ride than the subway/local bus. Even if the seats end up being a little more torn (provided they aren't slashed to shreds), you're still getting good value.

 

Also, like LRG said, the local buses cost less than the express buses (to purchase), so, even after replacing some of the seat cushions, the MTA will still come out ahead.

 

Personally, some overcrowded lines could use that local bus-style seating (with seat cushions, of course). It would allow some extra people to fit in, rather than being bypassed because there is no more standing room.

 

When I took the express bus, I was shocked that regular, healthy people would turn down a bus just because there were no seats. My logic is: If there are no seats on this one, there might not be seats on the next one, or the one after that, so why wait another 15-20 minutes when you can get on the bus right there and relax at work?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

well, what's the point of any thread...

 

...and yeah, I find single post titling irritating also...

especially how Garibaldi does it, with the sneering remarks w/i them....

 

And I'm not going to change it, so I guess those who don't like it will have to live w/it...

 

But at least you're direct about it (B35) and don't BS... I can respect that. :cool: