Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Wallyhorse]

9 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Except it’s not possible to do that now...as in right now. The  line is still fully open and we still don’t have any R179s in service (their newest teething problems might keep them out of service for a long while), so we don’t have enough cars for  the T service.  That may change in 2019, but I don’t think the crowding on the  can wait till then. 

A perfect example of never lengthening the Eastern Division stations coming back to bite the  in one respect (as the could have been 10 cars if the stations that we know which were lengthened).

Agree something needs to be done on 2nd Avenue more immediately, but I would want to do it where it does not disrupt the Broadway Line any more than necessary.

One thing that ought to be considered would be this if it were up to me:

Making the  a full-length route, possibly split with half the trains going to 95th with the  and the other half going to Bay Parkway on the West End line and terminating there, with the becoming 24/7 to Astoria (in this format, late nights ALL trains would be 95th-Astoria with the late-night  shuttle eliminated).  The  would obviously need enough trains to be the sole service to Astoria (while the mainly goes to 96th/2nd with SOME  trains as needed also going to Astoria).  That might work for now.

Regardless, when the shutdown does happen, maybe at that point you could do the  / split I noted which would render a lot of the Broadway changes noted above moot.

[Lance]

That Broadway service you suggested is way too confusing for the average rider. Transit does not want too many services with wildly different terminals, especially to the magnitude you're suggesting. For the handful of and  trains that run to New Lots Av or Utica Av respectively, riders always bail at Franklin Av despite the side signs and in-station PA/CIS displays showing the final termini for these trains, thus creating delays due to transferring. Now imagine that with half of a line running to Bay Ridge with the other to Bay Parkway. KISS principles are not just a suggestion in these instances. Riders need clear indication of where the trains are going, not a matter of some go here while others go there.

[CenSin]

1 hour ago, Lance said:

That Broadway service you suggested is way too confusing for the average rider. Transit does not want too many services with wildly different terminals, especially to the magnitude you're suggesting. For the handful of and  trains that run to New Lots Av or Utica Av respectively, riders always bail at Franklin Av despite the side signs and in-station PA/CIS displays showing the final termini for these trains, thus creating delays due to transferring. Now imagine that with half of a line running to Bay Ridge with the other to Bay Parkway. KISS principles are not just a suggestion in these instances. Riders need clear indication of where the trains are going, not a matter of some go here while others go there.

If trains could go to a bunch of places at either end, they would simply stop using letters and just go by color… or a mix of colors…

[Eric B]

That's pretty much the way things were back in the really old days, before letter and number designations were the common route identifiers. (Even the IND letters were originally "markers" for the towers). I guess that's what may have worked back then, but the thinking is very different now.

[Wallyhorse]

11 hours ago, Lance said:

That Broadway service you suggested is way too confusing for the average rider. Transit does not want too many services with wildly different terminals, especially to the magnitude you're suggesting. For the handful of and  trains that run to New Lots Av or Utica Av respectively, riders always bail at Franklin Av despite the side signs and in-station PA/CIS displays showing the final termini for these trains, thus creating delays due to transferring. Now imagine that with half of a line running to Bay Ridge with the other to Bay Parkway. KISS principles are not just a suggestion in these instances. Riders need clear indication of where the trains are going, not a matter of some go here while others go there.

I agree my plan for Broadway is not perfect, but it would give the easier yard access with a split of half going to Bay Parkway and half going to 95th (much like the long-running split).  It also solves some of the issues with the  on 4th Avenue. 

[R42N]

15 hours ago, Lance said:

That Broadway service you suggested is way too confusing for the average rider. Transit does not want too many services with wildly different terminals, especially to the magnitude you're suggesting. For the handful of and  trains that run to New Lots Av or Utica Av respectively, riders always bail at Franklin Av despite the side signs and in-station PA/CIS displays showing the final termini for these trains, thus creating delays due to transferring. Now imagine that with half of a line running to Bay Ridge with the other to Bay Parkway. KISS principles are not just a suggestion in these instances. Riders need clear indication of where the trains are going, not a matter of some go here while others go there.

I feel like we’ve been through all of this before.

The Astoria-95th Street Late Night  isn’t really a  anymore, it’s a  in Queens and Manhattan and a in Brooklyn, and the designations would have different route patterns during different times of day. 

I know the argument is that it’s a “supplemental” route, but there is a reason why ’s are sent up SAS during midday GOs, and it’s because the  is more familiar along the Astoria Line and at Lex-5th/59th. When the MTA has the ability to do so, they will try to keep designations as familiar as possible, while it might be awesome for me or you to have a cool, changing 24/7  route, it would come off as sloppy in the eyes of the public. The current service pattern keeps things under control. 

------

And, to talk about the and  trains, I’m shocked they aren’t signed as  or  ’s going southbound. One of the major benefits of the rush hour  ’s is that they are signed as  ’s northbound, thus eliminating the need for constant manual announcements to transfer, only to have a bunch of riders (with headphones) realizing the train is on the express track at 57/7. 

 

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, R42N said:

I feel like we’ve been through all of this before.

The Astoria-95th Street Late Night  isn’t really a  anymore, it’s a  in Queens and Manhattan and a in Brooklyn, and the designations would have different route patterns during different times of day. 

 

------

And, to talk about the and  trains, I’m shocked they aren’t signed as  or  ’s going southbound. One of the major benefits of the rush hour  ’s is that they are signed as  ’s northbound, thus eliminating the need for constant manual announcements to transfer, only to have a bunch of riders (with headphones) realizing the train is on the express track at 57/7. 

When the R142 equipment came to the line the fleet didn't have a to Utica Avenue program. My last trip for years was always a to Utica so my C/R and I came up with an improvisation. S/B leaving Bowling Green we would turn the side signs off completely and make manual announcements from Borough Hall to Franklin Avenue. Our regular riders knew our destination because as a crew we'd been together for over 10 years making that same interval dating back to the Redbird days. They would see us and board without question. The problem was always at Nevins St. There was a C/R on the s/b who would purposely hold his doors open to make a connection and announce us as an arriving train. That's all his riders needed to hear even though we had no side signs displayed and we weren't going to Flatbush. Finally some riders complained about us so we had a TSS meet us at Borough Hall and take over door operations to " re-instruct" us. He reactivated the to Flatbush program. His operation (?) delayed the that always followed us to Utica while RCC went crazy on the radio as did our follower on the .Needless to say that after that the RCC let us operate  our way until the programs were updated. Back then we were told do not change the signage to or so that option was out. As you point out above that isn't really a and if it's going to 95th St via the tunnel late evenings it's an . Changing signage enroute was always frowned on. Pre- NTT if my was sent over the Seventh Avenue line neither  the end sign nor the C/Rs side signs was ever changed whether my destination was Bowling Green, Atlantic Avenue, Flatbush, Utica or New Lots.

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Trainmaster5

[R42N]

23 hours ago, Lance said:

That Broadway service you suggested is way too confusing for the average rider. Transit does not want too many services with wildly different terminals, especially to the magnitude you're suggesting. For the handful of and  trains that run to New Lots Av or Utica Av respectively, riders always bail at Franklin Av despite the side signs and in-station PA/CIS displays showing the final termini for these trains, thus creating delays due to transferring. Now imagine that with half of a line running to Bay Ridge with the other to Bay Parkway. KISS principles are not just a suggestion in these instances. Riders need clear indication of where the trains are going, not a matter of some go here while others go there.

It’s also worth noting that while you are technically “splitting”  service, you are essentially adding an additional 5th line, as Astoria would need it’s headways maintained, and with the car shortage and no R179s coming up soon with the recent issues, that’s not a solution. 

Here are the five lines under your scenario that would need decent headways: 

 96st or Astoria to Sea Beach

 Astoria to Bay Ridge

 Astoria to Bay Parkway

 Forest Hills to Bay Ridge

 96st to Brighton

Unfortunately, the car shortage really does knock down most of these scenarios, which is why extracting one  from Queens Blvd is the best solution at the moment. 

[R42N]

7 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Our regular riders knew our destination because as a crew we'd been together for over 10 years making that same interval dating back to the Redbird days.

An additional problem, Trainmaster, is that in this day and age, there are a lot of people that don’t listen to announcements. 

Many people have headphones on, see the  bullet as it pulls in, and grab a seat, never to look up at any signage, only to realize that things are wrong at Franklin Ave. This is why having the  northbound (even through SeaBeach) is a smart move. 

[Union Tpke]

They screwed up!

Station Information

No elevator service 
at 96 St  station while modifications are in progress 

 

Weekends, 10 PM Fri to 5 AM Mon 
Nov 3 – 6 • Nov 10 – 13
Nov 17 – 20 • Nov 24 – 27

Nearest elevator accessible station:

• 86 St 

 

Origin/DestinationTravel Alternatives

From street level at 96 St 
to 86 St • Go to the corner of E 96 St at 2 Av.  
• Board an M15 or M15 SBS bus and take it to 86 St.
• Cross 2 Av at E 86 St to enter the station on the southeast  
 corner.

From platform to street level at 
96 St 

• Take a downtown  one stop to 86 St.  
• Exit to street and go one block to the corner of E 86 St at 
  1 Av.  
• Board an M15 or M15 SBS bus and take it to E 96 St.  
• 96 St   station is located one block to the west. 

From street level at 86 St  to 
96 St 

• Go one block to the corner of E 86 St at 1 Av.  
• Board an M15 or M15 SBS bus and take it to E 96 St.  
• 96 St   station is located one block to the west. 

From mezzanine at 86 St  
to 96 St 

• Exit to street and proceed one block to the corner of 
  E 86 St at 1 Av.  
• Board an M15 or M15 SBS bus and take it to E 96 St.  
• 96 St  station is located one block to the west. 

From 72 St  to 96 St 

• Exit to street and proceed one block to the corner of
  E 72 St at 1 Av.  
• Board an M15 bus and take it to E 96 St.  
• 96 St   station is located one block to the west. 

Please note that this work is being performed on weekends to minimize the inconvenience to our customers.We apologize for any inconvenience.

* Click here to check Elevator & Escalator Status system wide

 For Accessible Travel Information and the Elevator & Escalator Hotline call 511 6 AM to 10 PM for agent assistance or 24/7 for automated information.

If you are hearing impaired:
Use your preferred relay service provider or the free 711 service relay to reach 511. If you cannot be connected for any reason, you can ask the relay operator to connect you to 511 via the following phone number: 877-690-5116.

Click here to plan your trip with Trip Planner+, or call 511 for automated travel information 24/7; agents are available from 6 AM to 10 PM daily.

[Lance]

Why am I not surprised? I do wonder why elevators are such a hard concept to grasp for the MTA.

[Wallyhorse]

2 hours ago, Lance said:

Why am I not surprised? I do wonder why elevators are such a hard concept to grasp for the MTA.

Who knows.  Maybe whoever does the work uses cheap equipment that breaks down repeatedly.  

[Lance]

Then maybe the MTA shouldn't use these companies as vendors. It's absolutely ludicrous that a brand new station cannot keep its elevators in service for a year without them needing to be taken out service for an extended amount of time.

[Wallyhorse]

On 10/27/2017 at 8:09 AM, R42N said:

It’s also worth noting that while you are technically “splitting”  service, you are essentially adding an additional 5th line, as Astoria would need it’s headways maintained, and with the car shortage and no R179s coming up soon with the recent issues, that’s not a solution. 

Here are the five lines under your scenario that would need decent headways: 

 96st or Astoria to Sea Beach

 Astoria to Bay Ridge

 Astoria to Bay Parkway

 Forest Hills to Bay Ridge

 96st to Brighton

Unfortunately, the car shortage really does knock down most of these scenarios, which is why extracting one  from Queens Blvd is the best solution at the moment. 

Astoria's headways would remain unchanged.

What could be done if need be is shorten as needed the Bay Parkway  trains to 9th Avenue.  The idea is to do enough to supplement the  along 4th Avenue while eliminating crossovers as much as possible and streamlining the lines for more efficient service overall.

[itmaybeokay]

On 10/25/2017 at 2:42 PM, R42N said:

Well, Astoria (with the booming LIC/Hoyt population) really needs more trains than it has (Even if it is at maximum TPH on the schedule, they often fall behind which leads to massive gaps in service during rush hours.

Queens Blvd, on the other hand, is doing quite well, and can spare an  or an  without much (any) issue. So, unless if you want to switch northern terminals to provide one extra train, the will be going up SAS. 

I really don’t see an issue with this. As long as it’s not a regular thing, one switch will not ruin the day. The Broadway Line is not the Lexington Avenue Line, it’s headways are not overwhelming to the point where merging isn’t feasible. 

 

 

On 10/25/2017 at 3:01 PM, CenSin said:

or

• −2  to Astoria
• +2  to 2 Avenue
• −2  to Forest Hills
• +2  to Astoria
• +2  to Forest Hills

The trouble is if you "extract" one R train you could wind up with a headway of 20 minutes. 

Adding M trains doesn't help that much, considering I have to choose a broadway or 6th ave station before I board. 

The 46's don't deal with crowding super well - 8 less doors per train. The following QBL R is going to be crowded, and subsequently delayed. Further - if it's an R-46 set you're sending to 96 - harder to communicate to passengers its terminal. Yes there's always the PA - but it doesn't always work. 

None of this is the end of the world - I just think the change would hurt more than it helps. 

[R42N]

22 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Astoria's headways would remain unchanged.

What could be done if need be is shorten as needed the Bay Parkway  trains to 9th Avenue.  The idea is to do enough to supplement the  along 4th Avenue while eliminating crossovers as much as possible and streamlining the lines for more efficient service overall.

I get that Astoria’s headways would remain unchanged, that’s the problem. You would have to boost up  service to that of another line, which would create five broadway lines, which one can’t do under the current car constraints. 

The only thing you can do is pick and peel one more ,   or , that’s it. 

[R42N]

19 hours ago, itmaybeokay said:

 

The trouble is if you "extract" one R train you could wind up with a headway of 20 minutes. 

Adding M trains doesn't help that much, considering I have to choose a broadway or 6th ave station before I board. 

The 46's don't deal with crowding super well - 8 less doors per train. The following QBL R is going to be crowded, and subsequently delayed. Further - if it's an R-46 set you're sending to 96 - harder to communicate to passengers its terminal. Yes there's always the PA - but it doesn't always work. 

None of this is the end of the world - I just think the change would hurt more than it helps. 

You do not need to extract any ’s. 

Bay Ridge-95th is not at capacity (barely), so you could run an additional up it’s normal route (help out some 4th ave local pax) and switch it over to the  at 34th. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I wouldn’t switch the extra  at 34th. Not with all the northbound  express trains switching over to the local tracks there. Maybe do the switch somewhere in Brooklyn, either right after Pacific Street (Atlantic-Barclays) or just before DeKalb Ave, which would then allow that train to also stop at DeKalb. And sign it as a  going northbound - like they do with the Sea Beach  ‘s - so it doesn’t confuse riders. At least no more so than the Sea Beach riders who board the trains signed up as  ‘s there.

[MysteriousBtrain]

34 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I wouldn’t switch the extra  at 34th. Not with all the northbound  express trains switching over to the local tracks there. Maybe do the switch somewhere in Brooklyn, either right after Pacific Street (Atlantic-Barclays) or just before DeKalb Ave, which would then allow that train to also stop at DeKalb. And sign it as a  going northbound - like they do with the Sea Beach  ‘s - so it doesn’t confuse riders. At least no more so than the Sea Beach riders who board the trains signed up as  ‘s there.

I actually disagree with the labeling. I rather have the label reflect their own main routes. Sea Beach routes should be preserved as , Brighton for , Bay Ridge for , etc (with exception of emergency runs, GOs or modified extensions like the .) If riders get confused, oh well. There was not much advanced tech to help you out back then. You had to actually read signs.

 

It's like the 21st century made people forget how to actually pay attention.

Edited November 1, 2017 by MysteriousBtrain

[Around the Horn]

53 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I wouldn’t switch the extra  at 34th. Not with all the northbound  express trains switching over to the local tracks there. Maybe do the switch somewhere in Brooklyn, either right after Pacific Street (Atlantic-Barclays) or just before DeKalb Ave, which would then allow that train to also stop at DeKalb. And sign it as a  going northbound - like they do with the Sea Beach  ‘s - so it doesn’t confuse riders. At least no more so than the Sea Beach riders who board the trains signed up as  ‘s there.

I can guarantee that signing it up as a  would be much much worse than just as an . You'll have like a million people asking the C/R questions in Brooklyn, particularly the Bay Ridge section.

[Union Tpke]

It is going to be signed as an R. It runs local in Manhattan, unlike the Q, while the N share a central segment.

[Eric B]

I looked on the work program and saw this (R), staffed by a finishing midnight crew that does shuttles to Whitehall, and then finishes at 96th. No other  crews pick it up from there, so where does it go after that? 

[Around the Horn]

1 hour ago, Eric B said:

I looked on the work program and saw this (R), staffed by a finishing midnight crew that does shuttles to Whitehall, and then finishes at 96th. No other  crews pick it up from there, so where does it go after that? 

Just out of curiosity, what's the scheduled times for this trip?

[Lance]

22 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I wouldn’t switch the extra  at 34th. Not with all the northbound  express trains switching over to the local tracks there. Maybe do the switch somewhere in Brooklyn, either right after Pacific Street (Atlantic-Barclays) or just before DeKalb Ave, which would then allow that train to also stop at DeKalb. And sign it as a  going northbound - like they do with the Sea Beach  ‘s - so it doesn’t confuse riders. At least no more so than the Sea Beach riders who board the trains signed up as  ‘s there.

I foresee two major problems with that suggestion. First and foremost, it's ill-advised to change route designations mid-route, especially in such a drastic manner as this. This is just asking for problems by the boatload. Everyone is going to bail at Atlantic Av or DeKalb Av if it suddenly changes from an to a . Secondly, if it's to remain as a Broadway local as later posts seem to indicate, it needs to be signed as such. The  cannot be the catch-all for any line that happens to run to 96 Street. Unlike the internal to 96 Street runs, which are signed as trains via Sea Beach, most riders are heading to Manhattan on the Broadway express, so it doesn't matter. A via Whitehall St/Broadway local would be a harder sell to most riders who know the  as the primary express service for Broadway.

It just came to me. Everyone here is trying to fit this as a rerouted of sorts, when it really isn't. If the intention is to continue adding more service to 2nd Avenue while using the existing Broadway/6th Ave lines, perhaps Transit should look into labeling these random runs as 2nd Avenue specials. This way riders know these trains are not going to the usual destinations.

[Eric B]

11 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

Just out of curiosity, what's the scheduled times for this trip?

It leaves 95th St. at 7:01 and arrives at 96th St. at 8:05. (I don't have the timetables yet, which might show where the train goes).

This is still in time for the rush hour, so the only thing I can imagine, is that this will be a CI 160 borrowed for the midnight shuttle, and will go into  service afterward. Or a JYD 160, that goes into  service, then lays up at CIYD, then goes back into service for the evening. (what do the shuttles currently use? 46's? Would they use one of those?)