Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Union Tpke]

Oh and by the way, the next AAS update removes the annoying "via 2nd Avenue" part

 

Excellent. Hopefully the fix the mistake on the E at Kew Gardens. Since that is the station I use most often it is really getting on my nerves. Have you found any mistakes. I saw in a video on youtube that the W train to 86th during midday say Atlantic Avenue–Pacific Street instead of Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center.

[IAlam]

Historically, the two main roads of NYC were Broadway and Park Ave / Bowery, which met at Union Square. They preceded the 1811 plan which added the grid north of Houston St. It's not surprising that the intersections of Broadway and the north-south avenues (the "squares") contain the city's busiest commercial districts and subway stations.

 

 

I mentioned this before, but the original IRT subway was supposed to be one single line under Broadway, but the lower half was diverted to Park Ave and Lafayette St due to NIMBYs. This gave the BMT a direct route from the Manhattan Bridge to Midtown West, although the downtown route was forced to take sharp curves to and from Church St because the IRT was in the way. The express tracks of the BMT Broadway Line were supposed to naturally extend up CPW, but the IND decided to build their own 8 Ave Line instead. With UWS having ample subway capacity, the express tracks had to be rerouted east, which eventually happened in 1989.

 

 

The original IRT subway was supposed to be a straight line under Broadway, but NIMBYs forced the line to be rerouted south of 42 St. The H configuration fixed the system and allowed for two direct north-south lines which converged in Downtown, which was the city's main CBD in the early 20th century. The density of stations is an artifact of having all local stops serve only five-car trains until they were extended in the 1940s and 50s. The only thing the IRT really did wrong was to have a ton of inefficient loops to turn around trains in Downtown Manhattan.

 

The BMT actually first proposed a similar system to the IRT, with local trains terminating at City Hall and express trains continuing to Brooklyn. The plan was changed to take advantage of the four unused tracks on the already built Manhattan Bridge, which allowed for more of its Brooklyn lines to be extended into Manhattan.

 

The IND's best design element was to segregate its local routes and express routes outside the CBD so that ridership would be more evenly distributed. For instance, UWS riders had to take the local trains, allowing for the express trains to be less overcrowded. The major design flaw was to not build tunnels for local trains to run from Manhattan into Brooklyn or Queens. Crowding on the Queens Blvd Line is still heavily imbalanced today because of that issue, even with the building of the 63 St tunnel.

Even with the Imbalance Queens Blvd is performing better than the crowding wise at Woodside the dwell times can go over 2 minutes.

 

Oh and by the way, the next AAS update removes the annoying "via 2nd Avenue" part

Thank goodness, have they also fixed the issue with the announcements not playing?

[Caelestor]

How would have you built a Manhattan to Queens route for local trains?

Four-tracking 53rd?

 

That's a good question. Unlike the crosstown and lines, QBL was built with four tracks, so it'd make sense to build a four-tube river crossing straight up. Assuming that the 6 and 8 Ave lines are still four tracked, the 4 tracks from CPW and 4 from QBL would feed into them. Services would run as CPW local / 6 Ave exp, CPW exp / 8 Ave exp, QBL exp / 6 Ave local, and QBL local / 8 Ave local, with some CPW / 8 Ave local trains to fill in the gaps. In addition, there would be a third express track between 65 St and 36 St, to be used by select local trains in the peak direction. Local riders between Forest Hills and Jackson Heights would stay on their semi-express trains during rush hour, reducing the transfer volume at Roosevelt Ave. 

 

If I was planning the system though, I would've entirely forgone building the 6 Ave line for a takeover and extension of the existing PATH line, and built the first section of the SAS instead.

[Wallyhorse]

Would you agree in retrospect, one mistake was not extending the 63rd Street tunnel to go all the way across to the CPW/8th Avenue line?  If that could have been done, it would have come in very handy since then, you could have used it when needed for the to go across 63rd after a stop at Columbus Circle or when necessary send trains from 8th Avenue via the SAS to currently 96th/2nd for example.

That and extending Phase 2 of the SAS all the way across 125 (with a connection to the 8th Avenue Line at St. Nicholas) is something that needs to be done in my opinion.

[S78 via Hylan]

We don't need any "crosstown" line across 125th.

Edited January 13, 2017 by S78 via Hylan

[HenryB]

Really? I see M60 SBS, M100, M101 are very busy across 125st all the time

[bobtehpanda]

Really? I see M60 SBS, M100, M101 are very busy across 125st all the time

 

That doesn't mean that people will use a 125th Crosstown to go crosstown. How many people take the to go crosstown instead of the M42, or the to go crosstown instead of the M14A/D? If it's a short distance then going down the stairs, waiting for the train, taking the subway, and going back up the stairs is actually slower.

Edited January 13, 2017 by bobtehpanda

[HenryB]

From my observation, lots of people use those crosstown buses for subway (especially for       )
But I agree that subway has its constraint, like it can't have much stops across 125st as buses do.

[biGC323232]

That doesn't mean that people will use a 125th Crosstown to go crosstown. How many people take the to go crosstown instead of the M42, or the to go crosstown instead of the M14A/D? If it's a short distance then going down the stairs, waiting for the train, taking the subway, and going back up the stairs is actually slower.

Theirs lots of ppl that uses the   for crosstown purposes over the M14A/D...  not to many cause of the shuttle... If the  decided to end a 125st crosstown at like the west side hwy...i think it will get used....But you no the bigger picture here...Not enough money to extend...No one is gonna use it...

[Mysterious2train]

A 125th St crosstown, by connecting all the north-south subway lines, would make it easier to go from one side of the Bronx to the other. Or from one side of the Bronx/Upper Manhattan to the other side. I don't really think it should be built before the rest of the SAS and outer borough expansions, but it should absolutely be built at some point.

[bobtehpanda]

Theirs lots of ppl that uses the   for crosstown purposes over the M14A/D...  not to many cause of the shuttle... If the  decided to end a 125st crosstown at like the west side hwy...i think it will get used....But you no the bigger picture here...Not enough money to extend...No one is gonna use it...

 

Not if they're coming from somewhere on 14 St and going somewhere else on 14 St. Most bus travelers on 125 St are traveling somewhere else on 125 St (or to Columbia); this is what they found out during the M60 SBS studies.

 

Granted, there are more people doing it on 14 St, if only because 14 St is longer than 42 St.

Edited January 13, 2017 by bobtehpanda

[biGC323232]

Not if they're coming from somewhere on 14 St and going somewhere else on 14 St. Most bus travelers on 125 St are traveling somewhere else on 125 St (or to Columbia); this is what they found out during the M60 SBS studies.

 

Granted, there are more people doing it on 14 St, if only because 14 St is longer than 42 St.

I agree....i wont go downstairs for a train if a bus right there if i was staying on the same street or avenue...I was thinking both..For crosstown options and traveling options

[Caelestor]

A 125th St crosstown, by connecting all the north-south subway lines, would make it easier to go from one side of the Bronx to the other. Or from one side of the Bronx/Upper Manhattan to the other side. I don't really think it should be built before the rest of the SAS and outer borough expansions, but it should absolutely be built at some point.

 

The high bus ridership already justifies a 125 St Crosstown subway. Such a line would facilitate a new market for West Side / East Side travel, and the Broadway terminus serves as a natural anchor for ridership given Columbia's expansion. The question is whether or not the line should be a branch of the SAS, which would take away capacity from a potential Bronx epansion. In an ideal world, it would be the north section of the Triboro RX, and stations would be shorter to cut cost, but the SAS and Queens Bypass lines are higher in priority for construction. That said, if SAS Phase 2 proceeds as currently planned, the 125 St line is locked in as an extension of the SAS.

[S78 via Hylan]

Other areas in Queens or Brooklyn that aren't covered with subways should receive it before this crosstown line.

Edited January 13, 2017 by S78 via Hylan

[TheNewYorkElevated]

If a crosstown subway line under 125th Street is ever done, I hope the area of western Harlem is examined closely; the land there is a massive valley that was a mountainous place before it got ever developed, hence why the roads are like hills.

[bobtehpanda]

If a crosstown subway line under 125th Street is ever done, I hope the area of western Harlem is examined closely; the land there is a massive valley that was a mountainous place before it got ever developed, hence why the roads are like hills.

 

Examined closely for what? We already know that an old earthquake fault runs underneath the street (hence the valley)

[Trainmaster5]

If a crosstown subway line under 125th Street is ever done, I hope the area of western Harlem is examined closely; the land there is a massive valley that was a mountainous place before it got ever developed, hence why the roads are like hills.

It's on a fault line from river to river. That's a historical fact.

[Brooklyn]

Would you agree in retrospect, one mistake was not extending the 63rd Street tunnel to go all the way across to the CPW/8th Avenue line?  If that could have been done, it would have come in very handy since then, you could have used it when needed for the to go across 63rd after a stop at Columbus Circle or when necessary send trains from 8th Avenue via the SAS to currently 96th/2nd for example.

 

That and extending Phase 2 of the SAS all the way across 125 (with a connection to the 8th Avenue Line at St. Nicholas) is something that needs to be done in my opinion.

 

I've actually thought about that (63st to 8th avenue).....it would have been a good idea, actually and helpful during fastrack or any reroutes...

[bobtehpanda]

Would you agree in retrospect, one mistake was not extending the 63rd Street tunnel to go all the way across to the CPW/8th Avenue line?  If that could have been done, it would have come in very handy since then, you could have used it when needed for the to go across 63rd after a stop at Columbus Circle or when necessary send trains from 8th Avenue via the SAS to currently 96th/2nd for example.

 

Absolutely not. Building some backup infrastructure for emergencies is one thing; building a complex, redundant, grade separated junction in that wouldn't be used in service would only sink the business case made to the FTA at the time and the project just wouldn't have been done at all. The project already had its costs blow out of proportion.

[Brooklyn]

That's a good question. Unlike the crosstown and lines, QBL was built with four tracks, so it'd make sense to build a four-tube river crossing straight up. Assuming that the 6 and 8 Ave lines are still four tracked, the 4 tracks from CPW and 4 from QBL would feed into them. Services would run as CPW local / 6 Ave exp, CPW exp / 8 Ave exp, QBL exp / 6 Ave local, and QBL local / 8 Ave local, with some CPW / 8 Ave local trains to fill in the gaps. In addition, there would be a third express track between 65 St and 36 St, to be used by select local trains in the peak direction. Local riders between Forest Hills and Jackson Heights would stay on their semi-express trains during rush hour, reducing the transfer volume at Roosevelt Ave. 

 

If I was planning the system though, I would've entirely forgone building the 6 Ave line for a takeover and extension of the existing PATH line, and built the first section of the SAS instead.

 

Interesting....so what would go through 63rd? Also, where would the QBL /8th avenue trains terminate (both ends)?

 

I've also thought about a EE train with its own tracks--I think it would do wonders for Queens Blvd.

 

Now, your last idea is extremely interesting. No 6th avenue line, the system looks really different. I am curious--how would you do it?

 

And yes, what a shame PATH wasn't extended....the least that could have been done was go to 42nd st (I'll take Grand Central)...The 33rd st terminal is a major pain in the rear end--too many jobs in Midtown East for it not to go to.

Absolutely not. Building some backup infrastructure for emergencies is one thing; building a complex, redundant, grade separated junction in that wouldn't be used in service would only sink the business case made to the FTA at the time and the project just wouldn't have been done at all. The project already had its costs blow out of proportion.

Fair enough.

[Caelestor]

Interesting....so what would go through 63rd? Also, where would the QBL /8th avenue trains terminate (both ends)?

 

I've also thought about a EE train with its own tracks--I think it would do wonders for Queens Blvd.

 

Now, your last idea is extremely interesting. No 6th avenue line, the system looks really different. I am curious--how would you do it?

 

And yes, what a shame PATH wasn't extended....the least that could have been done was go to 42nd st (I'll take Grand Central)...The 33rd st terminal is a major pain in the rear end--too many jobs in Midtown East for it not to go to.

 

Keep in mind that I'm talking about the original construction of the IND back in the 1930s. If the 53 St Line was 4-tracked from the start, the 63 St Line would lose a lot of its function, namely to add more capacity on the 6 Ave local tracks. Instead, the 63 St Line probably would have been a simple extension of the Broadway express tracks through Roosevelt Island and into Queens, likely onto Northern Blvd to relieve the Flushing Line. I'm uncertain if any wyes between the SAS and the 63 St Line would be built.

 

The QBL local tracks would have continued onto the 8 Ave tracks, and the QBL express tracks would have continued under 6 Ave. All QBL express trains travel via 6 Ave and the Culver Line to Church Ave (and in the future Coney Island), half of which run express in Brooklyn. The QBL local trains terminate at Hudson Terminal as planned. The 8 Ave trains are unchanged from today's . The IND would run

• 8 Ave Exp / Fulton Exp
• 8 Ave Local / Fulton Local
• Concourse Local / CPW Local / 6 Ave Exp
• Concourse Exp / CPW Exp / 6 Ave Exp
• 8 Ave Local / QBL Local, runs rush hour peak direction express between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Ave
• Culver Local / 6 Ave Local / QBL Exp, (FF) runs express in Brooklyn
• Crosstown

The   terminate at 34 St until either the extension into Williamsburg or via the Manhattan Bridge are built.

 

I think the 6 Ave Line shouldn't have been built because it duplicates PATH, as well as the 7 Ave and Broadway Lines. It also cost a ton to build since PATH, the 6 Ave elevated, the NEC tracks, and existing subway lines were all in the way. Instead of the 6 Ave Line, I would have extended PATH up 6 Ave and have it curve west under 57 St, where it would connect with the Columbus Circle and 57 St - 7 Ave complexes. The money can be redirected to an actual East Side trunk line, namely SAS south of 53 St.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Caelestor

[CenSin]

Would you agree in retrospect, one mistake was not extending the 63rd Street tunnel to go all the way across to the CPW/8th Avenue line?  If that could have been done, it would have come in very handy since then, you could have used it when needed for the to go across 63rd after a stop at Columbus Circle or when necessary send trains from 8th Avenue via the SAS to currently 96th/2nd for example.

This concept is definitely nice, but building it would be quite a feat considering the mess of tunnels over at 8 Avenue. The 63 Street tunnel would connect 8 Avenue, Broadway, 6 Avenue, and 2 Avenue all at once.

[IAlam]

That doesn't mean that people will use a 125th Crosstown to go crosstown. How many people take the to go crosstown instead of the M42, or the to go crosstown instead of the M14A/D? If it's a short distance then going down the stairs, waiting for the train, taking the subway, and going back up the stairs is actually slower.

Actually the get a lot of crosston riders in the morning rush main heading east bound spo yeah it would have use.

 

Also a 125th crosstown line can be used by people in the Bronx who aren't able to go from areas like Riverdale to Co-op. It can also allow people on the East side to go to the East bronx w/o back tracking, and vise versa. 

[LTA1992]

Actually the get a lot of crosston riders in the morning rush main heading east bound spo yeah it would have use.

 

Also a 125th crosstown line can be used by people in the Bronx who aren't able to go from areas like Riverdale to Co-op. It can also allow people on the East side to go to the East bronx w/o back tracking, and vise versa. 

If someone wants to get from Riverdale to Co-Op City, I can tell you right now with every bit of the dark void that is my soul (if there is such a thing) that they would know better than to go ALL the way down to 125th Street. Just take two buses. Call it a day. Save an hour.

[IAlam]

If someone wants to get from Riverdale to Co-Op City, I can tell you right now with every bit of the dark void that is my soul (if there is such a thing) that they would know better than to go ALL the way down to 125th Street. Just take two buses. Call it a day. Save an hour.

I know a lot of people who refuse to take the bus all together, and recent bus ridership has been dropping all together. Let's face it all though distance wise it would be faster timewise it wouldn't be much faster, especially if there are large gaps in service.

 

But Since I didn't really emphasize it, (which was my bad) it would really be useful to people heading from West Side to East Bronx and people from the East Side to the West Bronx. 

 

People who live in a Neighborhood like Riverdale don't have a subway connection to the East Side, hence why they use the Express bus and MNR, same for people from Pelham going to locations such as Columbus Circle or Lincoln Center have no way to get there without backtracking. 

 

Also in the instance service gets messed up in the morning riders can shift from one line to another.