B35 via Church Posted October 30, 2016 Share #4001 Posted October 30, 2016 I would only agree with you if it is quicker to take the R, change for the N, the LIRR, (or the R and change for the A) then the Airtrain than it would be for a bus from Bay Ridge via the Belt to JFK. Not to mention that a bus would be direct and not involve three transfers which is a problem with luggage and stairs. Don't believe Bay Ridge stations are handicap accessible. It would also open up employment opportunities which the MTA never considers when planning new services. They only look at existing demand. I agree with what you say about the MTA & current demand.... Also agree with how cumbersome it is to get to JFK from SW Brooklyn... In saying that, I'm not seeing latent demand for a Bay Ridge (or SW Brooklyn in general) to JFK bus route.... I believe I mentioned in a post on here some years back, that maybe having a JFK route emanate from "commercial" Kings Hwy (by that, I'm referring to the area around the Brighton line) would be more plausible.... Kind of like what you've brought up earlier regarding having B35 LTD's start from McDonald av en route to JFK - except, instead of involving the B82 (which I think should be broken up, not extended to JFK like a certain someone no longer on this forum mentioned), it would be a whole new route running from Midwood (or w/e neighborhood that area's considered as being in) to JFK..... I don't proclaim to have the answer(s). nor am I saying this is something feasible to solve/fix...... What I will say is, it's not nearly as easy as (or as potent the demand as) "B103-ing" bus service b/w Bay Ridge & JFK.... and what I'm referring to with that, is just how cumbersome getting to Downtown Brooklyn from SE Brooklyn is w/o it..... This is the kind of market which, if it existed, would be more appropriate for a private-market operator to serve. In reality airport routes are only ever heavily used by employees, and most employees don't live in southern Brooklyn (and barring a major change in demographics, that's not happening anytime soon.) Private as in AE (Atlantic Express; e/g the x23/24), or private as in Resorts World Casino shuttle, private? Regardless, I'm not so sure privatization is even worth it.... Your other point.... Man, I really tried to refrain from resorting to a demographical argument regarding a Bay Ridge-JFK route, but that is true.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted October 30, 2016 Share #4002 Posted October 30, 2016 Private as in AE (Atlantic Express; e/g the x23/24), or private as in Resorts World Casino shuttle, private? Regardless, I'm not so sure privatization is even worth it.... Your other point.... Man, I really tried to refrain from resorting to a demographical argument regarding a Bay Ridge-JFK route, but that is true.... Private as in dollar vans. If we have dollar vans that serve a market as thin as Fort Lee-Flushing, and people really needed to get to JFK from Southern Brooklyn, then such a private route would probably exist by now; it's not as if Southern Brooklyn is lacking in dollar van operators. That's sort of like a chicken and egg. Of course few JFK employees come from southern Brooklyn because transportation to JFK from there is miserable unless you have access to a car. But that would change if it became more accessible. I bet there are more JFK employees living near the Barclay Center than say the Kings Highway Homecrest area for example, although Barclay Center is farther away. Wasn't the B15 extended based on a demographic analysis of the JFK employees at the time? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted October 30, 2016 Share #4003 Posted October 30, 2016 Private as in dollar vans. If we have dollar vans that serve a market as thin as Fort Lee-Flushing, and people really needed to get to JFK from Southern Brooklyn, then such a private route would probably exist by now; it's not as if Southern Brooklyn is lacking in dollar van operators. Wasn't the B15 extended based on a demographic analysis of the JFK employees at the time? 1 - Don't even think that's worth it either (jitney services).... Whatever happened to those Q74 & Q79 replacements again ! 2- I'd like to know why the B10 (which eventually became the B15) was extended to JFK as well..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted October 30, 2016 Share #4004 Posted October 30, 2016 Wasn't the B15 extended based on a demographic analysis of the JFK employees at the time? 2- I'd like to know why the B10 (which eventually became the B15) was extended to JFK as well..... I believe it was mentioned in this thread (or some other thread, forgot where) that it was extended because of some study of airport workers. I think it was BrooklynBus who posted about it. Before the B10 (B15), there was no direct Brooklyn-JFK route. They extended the 10, then renumbered it the 15 so people won't get confused with the Q10 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted October 30, 2016 Share #4005 Posted October 30, 2016 (edited) I believe it was mentioned in this thread (or some other thread, forgot where) that it was extended because of some study of airport workers. I think it was BrooklynBus who posted about it. Before the B10 (B15), there was no direct Brooklyn-JFK route. They extended the 10, then renumbered it the 15 so people won't get confused with the Q10 I'm aware that there was no other Brooklyn-JFK route before the extended B10/today's B15.... The genesis of what I was asking was, why the B10 (instead of some other route).... The old study I guess, pretty much answers that (if it included Bed Stuy residents anyway/also).... I can't complain though... It could have been the B14 or the B20 (either of which likely wouldn't have had the old B10 renumbered)... To sum it up, Thanks. Edited October 30, 2016 by B35 via Church 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotham Bus Co. Posted October 31, 2016 Share #4006 Posted October 31, 2016 Wasn't the B15 extended based on a demographic analysis of the JFK employees at the time? Yes, it was. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted October 31, 2016 Share #4007 Posted October 31, 2016 1 - Don't even think that's worth it either (jitney services).... Whatever happened to those Q74 & Q79 replacements again ! Jitneys in general are only really good at serving markets that can't possibly fail, like the Chinatown vans. Which is exactly my point - if there's a jitney route from Fort Lee - Flushing that costs something like $10 one-way, but no jitney service from Southern Brooklyn to JFK at all, market demand is somehow weaker for Southern Brooklyn-JFK than Fort Lee-Flushing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted October 31, 2016 Share #4008 Posted October 31, 2016 (edited) I am not aware of any demographic analysis of JFK employees that resulted in a B10 extension so it wasn't me who previously mentioned it. I suppose is is possible. As to why the B10 was chosen over the B14, the B10 serves more of Brooklyn. But if I was doing the planning, I would have chosen the B35 instead because it would have provided virtually all of Brooklyn with two bus access to JFK even if more employees are served with one bus via the B10. That route only leaves too many areas with three or four bus access. Knowing the MTA they might have chosen the B10 because politicians representing that area suggested that route. As far as using dollar vans for new services, it would have to be by subscription to be legal which means it would be limited to employees. Also if Belt Parkway traffic is your concern, they would create more traffic there than buses would especially if buses could use the shoulders where possible after reconstruction of the bridges is complete. Edited October 31, 2016 by BrooklynBus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted October 31, 2016 Share #4009 Posted October 31, 2016 Dollar vans need to be by subscription to be legal? How do the Chinatown ones and the other legal ones operate, then? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted October 31, 2016 Share #4010 Posted October 31, 2016 Dollar vans need to be by subscription to be legal? How do the Chinatown ones and the other legal ones operate, then? If they just pick up on the street, they are operating illegally. There are many illegal things that the city constantly ignores. I was in a little supermarket the other day that only had prices on like five percent of the items, the ones on sale. All items need to be marked. There is also a law requiring private garages to post their rates in large print outside the garage so you can see them before you enter, yet virtually every garage I see now violates this law by posting their rates in small print after you enter so it is impossible to change your mind and back out if there are cars behind you. Worse yet, some rates are posted in very dark locations so they cannot even be read up close. Or there is a large sign saying something like PARK HERE FOR $2.99 and in microscopic print it says "for the first 15 minutes" or something like that with the rate for 4 hours being like $25 plus 16 percent tax and like $40 for four to 8 hours plus tax and even higher for longer periods. So why does it surprise you that virtually all dollar vans are illegal? Then once a year or so it makes big news when they have a crackdown. I believe dollar vans can serve a useful purpose and they should be allowed to pick up without subscription, but the city must decide the routes so that they do not compete with MTA routes and make sure the vehicles are properly maintained with adequate insurance. Look how well the jitneys in Atlantic City gave been operating for over a hundred years. Each vehicle is privately owned and maintained but where they can operate is strictly regulated. The owners know exactly during which hours they need to provide service. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted October 31, 2016 Share #4011 Posted October 31, 2016 If they just pick up on the street, they are operating illegally. There are many illegal things that the city constantly ignores. I was in a little supermarket the other day that only had prices on like five percent of the items, the ones on sale. All items need to be marked. There is also a law requiring private garages to post their rates in large print outside the garage so you can see them before you enter, yet virtually every garage I see now violates this law by posting their rates in small print after you enter so it is impossible to change your mind and back out if there are cars behind you. Worse yet, some rates are posted in very dark locations so they cannot even be read up close. Or there is a large sign saying something like PARK HERE FOR $2.99 and in microscopic print it says "for the first 15 minutes" or something like that with the rate for 4 hours being like $25 plus 16 percent tax and like $40 for four to 8 hours plus tax and even higher for longer periods. So why does it surprise you that virtually all dollar vans are illegal? Then once a year or so it makes big news when they have a crackdown. I believe dollar vans can serve a useful purpose and they should be allowed to pick up without subscription, but the city must decide the routes so that they do not compete with MTA routes and make sure the vehicles are properly maintained with adequate insurance. Look how well the jitneys in Atlantic City gave been operating for over a hundred years. Each vehicle is privately owned and maintained but where they can operate is strictly regulated. The owners know exactly during which hours they need to provide service. I'm kind of surprised that dollar vans are still relevant given the amount of congestion and the other services available (Uber, Lyft, etc.). Why would people shun buses but continue to use dollar vans? Is it the low cost even with a slow ride that keeps them coming? A bus ride now is almost three times the cost of a dollar van so that's something to consider, and you know that those guys will drive the hell out of those vans to pick up as many passengers as possible, but nevertheless they still must be affected negatively by the increase in traffic and Vision Zero. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted October 31, 2016 Share #4012 Posted October 31, 2016 I'm kind of surprised that dollar vans are still relevant given the amount of congestion and the other services available (Uber, Lyft, etc.). Why would people shun buses but continue to use dollar vans? Is it the low cost even with a slow ride that keeps them coming? A bus ride now is almost three times the cost of a dollar van so that's something to consider, and you know that those guys will drive the hell out of those vans to pick up as many passengers as possible, but nevertheless they still must be affected negatively by the increase in traffic and Vision Zero.Dollar vans/cabs are $2 now...at least in Brooklyn lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted October 31, 2016 Share #4013 Posted October 31, 2016 Dollar vans/cabs are $2 now...at least in Brooklyn lol Ohhh.... Learn something new every day... So how are they thriving exactly? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future ENY OP Posted October 31, 2016 Share #4014 Posted October 31, 2016 Dollar vans/cabs are $2 now...at least in Brooklyn lol Same in Queens plus they don't run as frequently as they used too. Also, with the re-construction of Green Acres Mall. Less vans are heading to Valley Stream and ending at 233rd and Merrick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted October 31, 2016 Share #4015 Posted October 31, 2016 (edited) I'm kind of surprised that dollar vans are still relevant given the amount of congestion and the other services available (Uber, Lyft, etc.). Why would people shun buses but continue to use dollar vans? Is it the low cost even with a slow ride that keeps them coming? A bus ride now is almost three times the cost of a dollar van so that's something to consider, and you know that those guys will drive the hell out of those vans to pick up as many passengers as possible, but nevertheless they still must be affected negatively by the increase in traffic and Vision Zero. The Chinatown vans, at the very least, serve trips that are both indirect by current transportation methods but also would not be well served by express buses (serving trips between Chinatown, Elmhurst, Flushing, and Sunset Park), and are generally much faster than other mass transit options (Chinatown-Flushing is 40 minutes in traffic vs an hour on the subway, and the X51 never went south of 23rd.) Since they mostly stay on highways, they're not affected by Vision Zero. They're also legal, since they all have TLC plates and are registered to stop at "commuter van" stops that you see around Flushing, notably next to the Main St LIRR. Edited October 31, 2016 by bobtehpanda 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeLow Posted October 31, 2016 Share #4016 Posted October 31, 2016 Dollar Vans can be semi-legit. Ever notice a van with bus plates? If you apply through TLC, meet the 1001 requirements, pass vehicle inspection, have the proper insurance, own a NY State Class B CDL with passenger endorsement (for 15 passengers or equiv vehicle weight an air brake endorsement isn't needed), a backround check, work out of a TLC regulated base and meet certain NYSDOT requirements, your plates can have the word 'BUS' placed below the plate number in small letters. Of course these are not the OFFICIAL MTA bus plates. It allows your van to run on a route designated by TLC. There's even an official 'bus stop' in downtown Brooklyn for them. A real good driver can make 70-80 grand a year and more if he owns a fleet. The key is keeping that driver's license clean. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted November 1, 2016 Share #4017 Posted November 1, 2016 I'm kind of surprised that dollar vans are still relevant given the amount of congestion and the other services available (Uber, Lyft, etc.). Why would people shun buses but continue to use dollar vans? Is it the low cost even with a slow ride that keeps them coming? A bus ride now is almost three times the cost of a dollar van so that's something to consider, and you know that those guys will drive the hell out of those vans to pick up as many passengers as possible, but nevertheless they still must be affected negatively by the increase in traffic and Vision Zero. I can't speak for the chinatown vans, but the west indian ones are still relatively relevant.... MF-ers aren't taking Uber's, Lyft's, etc. like that around here..... Dollar vans/cabs are $2 now...at least in Brooklyn lol It's been like that for a minute now.... Ahh, the days when a dollar cab were actually a dollar (and they weren't hellbent on keeping up with MTA fares... Should've never started that trend) When the fare jumped from 1.50 to 2 bucks, the Church, Flatbush, and Utica cabs/vans saw a significant dip in usage.... What also aided in that drop, was that drivers were no longer allowed to fit 2 in the front seat; meaning no more 5 pax/car max & I believe 14 pax/van max. [15, if you got someone stupid enough to want to sit on the "hump"... and by that, I mean the area directly above the right rear wheel]) Ohhh.... Learn something new every day... So how are they thriving exactly? Simple.... Reckless as they're known for being, they're still significantly faster than the public bus. Same in Queens plus they don't run as frequently as they used too. Also, with the re-construction of Green Acres Mall. Less vans are heading to Valley Stream and ending at 233rd and Merrick. This phenomenon has been occurring along Utica for years now; there's simply more money to be made along Flatbush for the drivers.... Looking at it from another vantage point, more people are more apt to taking the B46 over the B41 (which illustrates just how much to shit the B41 has gone to over the years)... I remember when the ratio of Utica vans to Flatbush vans were basically 1:1 (back in the early 90's, when the vans actually stopped in front of Kings plz. on the Flatbush av. side)..... Now the vast majority run along Flatbush.... Speaking of Flatbush av, I've been noticing more mini-buses than actual vans these days.... Do those Mini-buses run to Kings Plaza, or do they stop somewhere short? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted November 1, 2016 Share #4018 Posted November 1, 2016 I'm kind of surprised that dollar vans are still relevant given the amount of congestion and the other services available (Uber, Lyft, etc.). Why would people shun buses but continue to use dollar vans? Is it the low cost even with a slow ride that keeps them coming? A bus ride now is almost three times the cost of a dollar van so that's something to consider, and you know that those guys will drive the hell out of those vans to pick up as many passengers as possible, but nevertheless they still must be affected negatively by the increase in traffic and Vision Zero. Just let me throw a different proposal into this SW Brooklyn-JFK mix. I think we should consider VG8's past proposals about ferry service. Would such a service even be considered in this thread? I don't know about the infrastructure conditions on both ends but a ferry service would have to be quicker than any Belt Parkway routing except maybe shoulder running like they do in other parts of the country. I'm just asking if this should even be considered. On my last trip from NC to NY it took me longer to travel from the VZ bridge to Erskine St than it did from the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel to the Delaware Memorial bridge and New Jersey. exit 1. Carry on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubBus Posted November 1, 2016 Share #4019 Posted November 1, 2016 Same in Queens plus they don't run as frequently as they used too. Also, with the re-construction of Green Acres Mall. Less vans are heading to Valley Stream and ending at 233rd and Merrick. I noticed that as well, when I went to Green Acres on Friday. Im getting ready for the holiday cluster**k over there beginning next month now that Green Acres Commons is open.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future ENY OP Posted November 1, 2016 Share #4020 Posted November 1, 2016 I noticed that as well, when I went to Green Acres on Friday. Im getting ready for the holiday cluster**k over there beginning next month now that Green Acres Commons is open.... Since the detour took in effect, and plus the Q5 is stopping on the back end of the mall near Valley Stream Mazda/KIA/Toyota and sears. It's very hard to navigate that area. Since Green Acres Commons is now open. Forget parking over there since that Nassau and NYPD QSTF patrol that side of the mall, and on Hood Creek Blvd.. 233rd is the official last stop. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future ENY OP Posted November 1, 2016 Share #4021 Posted November 1, 2016 I can't speak for the chinatown vans, but the west indian ones are still relatively relevant.... MF-ers aren't taking Uber's, Lyft's, etc. like that around here..... It's been like that for a minute now.... Ahh, the days when a dollar cab were actually a dollar (and they weren't hellbent on keeping up with MTA fares... Should've never started that trend) This phenomenon has been occurring along Utica for years now; there's simply more money to be made along Flatbush for the drivers.... Looking at it from another vantage point, more people are more apt to taking the B46 over the B41 (which illustrates just how much to shit the B41 has gone to over the years)... I remember when the ratio of Utica vans to Flatbush vans were basically 1:1 (back in the early 90's, when the vans actually stopped in front of Kings plz. on the Flatbush av. side)..... Now the vast majority run along Flatbush.... Speaking of Flatbush av, I've been noticing more mini-buses than actual vans these days.... Do those Mini-buses run to Kings Plaza, or do they stop somewhere short? You be surprised who takes Uber, Lyft, Gett and now VIA.. VIA is now in Williamsburg and Bushwick, and they are expanding as a far as Flatbush before the end of the year. The influx of the mini-vans is for the fact that it is easier to fit at least 20-25 ppl on a bus and each round trip those drivers could make up to $100 round trip vs a 14 passenger seat van at $56 round trip. Most of those mini buses stop at Kings Plaza.. However the 63rd Pct + BSTF + FSD Task Force all patrol that area. So it can get a bit dicey. What's good with those vans they can short turn at Kings HWY and not have tons of issues vs heading to Kings Plaza. Once the artics hit Utica for either SBS or Local, it's going to be a big problem for Utica van service. Already, you have the 71st Pct which patrols a latter portion of Utica and Empire to Eastern Parkway, than you have the 67th Pct which mostly deals with Church. I've seen certain and boarded vans within the 77th Pct vicinity which is rare. However, there are some vans that do make it down to Futon Street- Utica Ave Sta. (B25). When it's all said and done.. Flatbush will have an influx of vans while Utica drivers will be shifting over to Flatbush or perhaps Far Rockaway-Jamaica (Q113) and or Queens Village- Jamaica (Q83). Rochdale Village- Jamaica, Q85/Q111/Q113/Q114. Rosedale-Jamaica, Q111/Q113,Q114 and Q5. Cambria Heights-Elmont (Q4). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JubaionBx12+SBS Posted November 1, 2016 Share #4022 Posted November 1, 2016 What's the advantage of taking a Utica Av dollar van over the B46 SBS? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BM5 via Woodhaven Posted November 1, 2016 Share #4023 Posted November 1, 2016 What's the advantage of taking a Utica Av dollar van over the B46 SBS?Money-wise, if you're staying within the borough, it is a better deal. It's also faster than the bus in most cases (although how fast they drive can be concerning in several cases). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future ENY OP Posted November 1, 2016 Share #4024 Posted November 1, 2016 What's the advantage of taking a Utica Av dollar van over the B46 SBS? From Avenue H to E. Parkway. = Good Advantage (Dollar Van vs SBS) From Kings Plaza to E. Parkway = Not so good advantage. Better off with 46SBS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubBus Posted November 1, 2016 Share #4025 Posted November 1, 2016 You be surprised who takes Uber, Lyft, Gett and now VIA.. VIA is now in Williamsburg and Bushwick, and they are expanding as a far as Flatbush before the end of the year. The influx of the mini-vans is for the fact that it is easier to fit at least 20-25 ppl on a bus and each round trip those drivers could make up to $100 round trip vs a 14 passenger seat van at $56 round trip. Most of those mini buses stop at Kings Plaza.. However the 63rd Pct + BSTF + FSD Task Force all patrol that area. So it can get a bit dicey. What's good with those vans they can short turn at Kings HWY and not have tons of issues vs heading to Kings Plaza. Once the artics hit Utica for either SBS or Local, it's going to be a big problem for Utica van service. Already, you have the 71st Pct which patrols a latter portion of Utica and Empire to Eastern Parkway, than you have the 67th Pct which mostly deals with Church. I've seen certain and boarded vans within the 77th Pct vicinity which is rare. However, there are some vans that do make it down to Futon Street- Utica Ave Sta. (B25). When it's all said and done.. Flatbush will have an influx of vans while Utica drivers will be shifting over to Flatbush or perhaps Far Rockaway-Jamaica (Q113) and or Queens Village- Jamaica (Q83). Rochdale Village- Jamaica, Q85/Q111/Q113/Q114. Rosedale-Jamaica, Q111/Q113,Q114 and Q5. Cambria Heights-Elmont (Q4). Wow, some of the Utica vans are making their way up to Fulton now? I'm surprised that it took this long... The B46 to the transfer is increasing, but is still less popular than the B46 to the transfer. Actually, the B44 to the more popular..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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