B6 Limited - West of C.I. Av

[Acela Express]

Limited service was introduced on the B6 about 7 years ago, if I recall.

But I'm curious to as why the limited zone only starts at CI Ave/Ave J rather than extending west along Bay Parkway to 86th Street, perhaps? I know the heaviest portion is east of Coney Island Avenue, but I've witnessed standing loads along Bay Parkway moreso during rush hours and such. It looks to be school kids heading to Midwood HS/ Brooklyn College.

 

What say you?

[checkmatechamp13]

I think it's a good idea. I mean, some of the routes have reasons why the local and limited share a portion of the route (i.e. the locals don't short-turn), but they all make all local stops (such as narrow streets or not enough ridership), but I don't think that's the case here. Bay Parkway is a pretty wide street.

[Acela Express]

True. Even to avoid sending too many buses to the depot by Harway Avenue, they can actually short-turn locals at Ave J & CI Ave still, and a few other short-turns at Kings Highway or Stillwell Avenue. 86th Street may be too congested to short-turn buses there, in a sense.

 

Side note: not sure what moderator adjusted my thread title, but it's not exactly what I wanted. Good job. /sarcasm

[Mysterious2train]

Nitpicking, but the B6 Limited has been around for a lot more than 7 years. I don't know when it started, but it wasn't 2005. Here's an old map showing it.

[Rick44]

I have always wondered why the B6 Limited operates this kind of service, as if the stops west of C.I. Avenue are more important than the stops east of C.I. Avenue. The western corridor is not utilized as much as the eastern corridor. At first glance it seemed like the stops west of C.I. Avenue were treated this way due to more community support. But I don't know if it's more community support, or a desire for the to serve a certain class of people better than another. To entertain this thought in my opinion was silly, but I'm not so sure. I don't want to discriminate (hence me not wanting to describe the classes), but I wonder if the is practicing discrimination. Any thoughts?

[Shortline Bus]

I have always wondered why the B6 Limited operates this kind of service, as if the stops west of C.I. Avenue are more important than the stops east of C.I. Avenue. The western corridor is not utilized as much as the eastern corridor. At first glance it seemed like the stops west of C.I. Avenue were treated this way due to more community support. But I don't know if it's more community support, or a desire for the to serve a certain class of people better than another. To entertain this thought in my opinion was silly, but I'm not so sure. I don't want to discriminate (hence me not wanting to describe the classes), but I wonder if the is practicing discrimination. Any thoughts?

 

 

I don't think discrimination but more politcs on why there no B6 limited *west* of CI Avenue. In Bensonhurst there a very high number of seniors and I guess the (MTA)execs figured they would scream at losing local service. I could be wrong but a guess to answer your question.

[Rick44]

I don't think discrimination but more politcs on why there no B6 limited *west* of CI Avenue. In Bensonhurst there a very high number of seniors and I guess the (MTA)execs figured they would scream at losing local service. I could be wrong but a guess to answer your question.

 

I can agree with that, political support is sort of the same as community support in this case.

Though there are many seniors in the eastern corridor of the route as well.

[Shortline Bus]

What the could have done if they were worried about ticking off the Bensonhurst seniors imo was this. Similar to the M5 which runs 'limited' along Broadway between 135th and 168th rush hours only, in addition to all day limited weekdays between 14th and 72nd, at least when limited stop came to the B6, run rush hours between 86th/Bay Pwy. and CI Ave/Ave. J. Then expand to all day weekdays.

 

Honestly from few times in last few years on B6(or driving by in area)B6 Saturday service in Bensonhurst is not that busy.

It's busy between Flatbush/Nostrand and Rockaway Parkway 24/7.

[Acela Express]

I don't think discrimination but more politcs on why there no B6 limited *west* of CI Avenue. In Bensonhurst there a very high number of seniors and I guess the (MTA)execs figured they would scream at losing local service. I could be wrong but a guess to answer your question.

 

How would they "lose" local service? If LTD is extended west towards Kings Highway or 86th Street, then you'll have a local counterpart right along with it. This will just speed service along from folks who need to get to Midwood HS/ Brooklyn College. Stopping at every stop slows the process down, especially in Bensonhurst.

 

I'm leaning toward Kings Highway & Bay Pkwy because at second thought there's no 'simple' way to turnaround at 86th Street, unless you have the B6s make a left at 86th, right on 23rd Avenue, right on Benson, then another right onto Bay Pkwy to start back east. (Or discharge at 86th, continue down Bay Pkwy to Benson for a left turn, then another left onto 23rd Ave, left onto 86th, then right onto Bay Pkwy).

[checkmatechamp13]

How would they "lose" local service?

 

 

They'd lose it in the sense that now half the buses are running limited and bypassing their stop. So if before they got a bus every 4 minutes, now they get a bus every 8 minutes (and I think the limited runs more frequently than the local)

[B35 via Church]

I don't think it's due to discrimination or politics.... I think the MTA is just catering the LTD service to the group of riders that use the intermediate stops less - which would be those that use the B6 on the more eastern half..... There are more riders that use (what would be) the local stops if LTD's did exist on the western half of the route.... Let's face it, there's more B6 ridership coming from the east than there is coming from the west......

 

While I can understand why they set up LTD service that way, I still always felt as if the B6 LTD should run the whole route..... While you have more riders embarking/disembarking at more stops along the western half of the route, you still have folks on the eastern half riding out to parts along the western half..... and then of course you have the Midwood kids that fill up the WB buses...... As far as EB ridership, the swarms you see embarking at Bay Pkwy subway & w/e amt. of riders that embark at cropsey/bay pkwy, these are riders that are generally empty out at or before Flatbush av..... Hell, I'll even be a little more specific & say the bulk of that crowd is off the bus before it hits the brighton line...... Outside of schoolkids, you wont see a lot of commuters coming from that direction on the B6 riding past the brighton.....

 

 

Although I don't know what the original thread title was, I don't have a problem w/ what's being proposed here.....

[cotb16]

Another factor as to why B6 limited service does not go west of Coney Island Avenue -- the limited stops west of that street would be close together.

 

Probable LTD stops west of CI Av

McDonald Av/Bay Pkwy station

60th St (B9)

67th St (Bay Pkwy station)

Bay Ridge Pkwy (B4)

Kings Highway (B82)

86th St (B1, Bay Pkwy station)

Bath Av (B64)

Caesar's Bay Shopping Center

25th/Harway

[mediccjh]

How would they "lose" local service? If LTD is extended west towards Kings Highway or 86th Street, then you'll have a local counterpart right along with it. This will just speed service along from folks who need to get to Midwood HS/ Brooklyn College. Stopping at every stop slows the process down, especially in Bensonhurst.

 

I'm leaning toward Kings Highway & Bay Pkwy because at second thought there's no 'simple' way to turnaround at 86th Street, unless you have the B6s make a left at 86th, right on 23rd Avenue, right on Benson, then another right onto Bay Pkwy to start back east. (Or discharge at 86th, continue down Bay Pkwy to Benson for a left turn, then another left onto 23rd Ave, left onto 86th, then right onto Bay Pkwy).

 

 

Can't happen. Left turns are prohibited at the Bay Pkwy and 86th St intersection, from all points of the intersection.

[Acela Express]

Alright, thanks for pointing this out for 86th Street.

 

I believe Kings Highway would be the best point in this case, with a few alterations.

The B6 locals and short-turn LTDs can terminate at the Avenue P farside stand, then make a left at 78th Street, left on Stillwell Avenue, then another left on Kings Highway where they can find at least 90-130 ft for a bus layover zone.

 

This also would have to make some alterations to the bus stop locations.

 

The B6/82 stand heading east is currently at the nearside of 78th & Bay Parkway; relocating the B82 stand to the farside triangle island on Kings Highway (after making the right turn from Bay Pkwy) might be suitable, and relocating the B6 to the farside along Bay Parkway to accomodate the short-turned B6s coming back into service from Kings Highway as they make the right turn.

 

As for the new LTD stops west of CI Avenue:

 

Ocean Parkway (possibly)

McDonald Avenue (for connections to the F train)

60th Street (B9)

66th Street (N train)

Kings Highway (B82)

 

All stops west of Kings Highwy would be local.

This solution allows some LTD buses to short-turn and not send every bus down to the depot.

[Threxx]

Alright, thanks for pointing this out for 86th Street.

 

I believe Kings Highway would be the best point in this case, with a few alterations.

The B6 locals and short-turn LTDs can terminate at the Avenue P farside stand, then make a left at 78th Street, left on Stillwell Avenue, then another left on Kings Highway where they can find at least 90-130 ft for a bus layover zone.

 

This also would have to make some alterations to the bus stop locations.

 

The B6/82 stand heading east is currently at the nearside of 78th & Bay Parkway; relocating the B82 stand to the farside triangle island on Kings Highway (after making the right turn from Bay Pkwy) might be suitable, and relocating the B6 to the farside along Bay Parkway to accomodate the short-turned B6s coming back into service from Kings Highway as they make the right turn.

 

As for the new LTD stops west of CI Avenue:

 

Ocean Parkway (possibly)

McDonald Avenue (for connections to the F train)

60th Street (B9)

66th Street (N train)

Kings Highway (B82)

 

All stops west of Kings Highwy would be local.

This solution allows some LTD buses to short-turn and not send every bus down to the depot.

 

 

Why short turn LTD's? Just have all local buses short turn there, LTD buses run every 8-9 mins, it won't be too much.

 

Also, why not extend B46 LTD service all the way to Flatbush Avenue?

 

Flatlands Avenue & Avenue N would be new LTD stops.

[Acela Express]

Why short turn LTD's? Just have all local buses short turn there, LTD buses run every 8-9 mins, it won't be too much.

 

And where exactly are you getting information from? The headway on the B6 for LTDs is just about every 3-4 minutes during rush hours, so you'll need those LTDs to short-turn and serve the corridor where it's heavily congested. You'll have empty buses for the most part continuing down to Harway Avenue, and for what? Have every other B6 LTD head down to the depot, and short-turn all locals at Avenue P/Kings Highway.

 

For Saturdays, all LTDs would serve Harway Avenue; and local buses short-turn Avenue/Kings Highway.

Sundays, I suppose you can have every other local bus terminate at KH/Ave P since there's no B6LTD service.

[Acela Express]

Also, why not extend B46 LTD service all the way to Flatbush Avenue?

 

Flatlands Avenue & Avenue N would be new LTD stops.

 

I've answered this in the Brooklyn proposals thread. Take a look when you can.

Although I don't know what the original thread title was, I don't have a problem w/ what's being proposed here.....

 

It's been fixed. No worries now.

[aemoreira81]

I have always wondered why the B6 Limited operates this kind of service, as if the stops west of C.I. Avenue are more important than the stops east of C.I. Avenue. The western corridor is not utilized as much as the eastern corridor. At first glance it seemed like the stops west of C.I. Avenue were treated this way due to more community support. But I don't know if it's more community support, or a desire for the to serve a certain class of people better than another. To entertain this thought in my opinion was silly, but I'm not so sure. I don't want to discriminate (hence me not wanting to describe the classes), but I wonder if the is practicing discrimination. Any thoughts?

 

 

It may also have to do with the fact that those short-turns are a remnant of when the B11 used to run to Canarsie (it was cut back to Nostrand Junction in 1990). Pre-1978, only the B6 served Flatlands Avenue between Ralph Avenue and Rockaway Parkway (and there was no bus service on the rest of Flatlands). Then the B11 and B50 began serving Flatlands Avenue in 1978 (the B50 was a brand-new route and the B11 was extended eastward from 18 Avenue in Borough Park).

[Acela Express]

Time to revisit this topic.

After riding the B6 with a friend today, it's clear to me the LTD zone needs to be extended west of Coney Island Avenue. 

There were 3 points where our bus was heavily hit along Bay Pkwy after exiting Avenue J:

 

- McDonald Avenue, F train

- 66th Street, N train

- 86th Street, D train (not so much our bus, but the local who passed us at 66th caught the load at 86th, which seems to be heavy going west into Bensonhurst)

 

**This westbound trip was after 4pm, so school didn't play into the ridership along Bay Pkwy at this point; you're carrying mostly regular passengers along the corridor.

 

You have the 82LTD along Bay Parkway as an actual limited, but turns off at Kings Highway. 

The 6LTD approximately goes a little over 3 miles before it actually turns into an actual "LIMITED" east of Coney Island Avenue.

 

Help. lol

[BrooklynBus]

Can't happen. Left turns are prohibited at the Bay Pkwy and 86th St intersection, from all points of the intersection.

They can always make exceptions for buses. At Ocean Parkway and Brighton Beach Avenue before the B68 was extended, there was a no left turn except for buses. The sign may even still be there although no buses make a left here any more.

 

Also, if they would extend the limited west of Coney Island Avenue, that would increase the need for transfers between the limited and local that doesn't take away the transfer you already get. Otherwise limited users would decrease (especially seniors) because riders would resist paying double fare for the limited.

[qjtransitmaster]

They can always make exceptions for buses. At Ocean Parkway and Brighton Beach Avenue before the B68 was extended, there was a no left turn except for buses. The sign may even still be there although no buses make a left here any more.

Also, if they would extend the limited west of Coney Island Avenue, that would increase the need for transfers between the limited and local that doesn't take away the transfer you already get. Otherwise limited users would decrease (especially seniors) because riders would resist paying double fare for the limited.

Those seniors can get the senior unlimited for $54 a month MTA needs to stop keeping riders in the dark.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

As someone who lived in Midwood for a few years and used to use the B6 west of Coney Island to visit friends in Bensonhurst or to run errands or what have you, it's not just the limited stop issue, but the lack of buses in general that I found annoying. It's like you had to wait several buses before you could get one going to Bensonhurst.  I don't care what the schedule says because with the B6 you can throw that out of the window... Buses come whenever they want and usually in bunches of 4 to 6 in a pack, but getting a bus past Coney Island Av... Like a needle in a haystack depending on the time of day.

 

As far as I'm concerned they indeed do cater to the Eastern part of the route more.  Outside of rush hours, quite frankly the trip from Midwood to Bensonhurst isn't that bad, but still... Too few buses went past Coney Island Av, so having some be limited would be nice to offset the waiting.

[Acela Express]

Also, if they would extend the limited west of Coney Island Avenue, that would increase the need for transfers between the limited and local that doesn't take away the transfer you already get. Otherwise limited users would decrease (especially seniors) because riders would resist paying double fare for the limited.

This actually would benefit the folks who use the B6 for the long haul crosstown, as they've done with the B82 already (which has successful rush hour LTD service).

It just doesn't make sense having an LTD catching up to a local bus by Coney Island Avenue, and now they're both going head to head into the bus stops, which is basically bus bunching for the next 3-miles down Bay Pkwy. Makes no sense.

[Culver]

This actually would benefit the folks who use the B6 for the long haul crosstown, as they've done with the B82 already (which has successful rush hour LTD service).

It just doesn't make sense having an LTD catching up to a local bus by Coney Island Avenue, and now they're both going head to head into the bus stops, which is basically bus bunching for the next 3-miles down Bay Pkwy. Makes no sense.

This. Seen this pretty much every time I walk down Bay Parkway with 2-3 B6s at a time and never understood why the LTD made all local stops in the area. The B82 LTD doesn't make all stops in Gravesend and Bensonhurst and nobody complains; and that's basically the same area politically/community-wise.

[boxeraf]

Locals an limited always run nose to tail during rush hour. They should make limited service west of CIA you can short at Bath or Cropsey avenues. The Geezers in Bensonhurst will complain no matter what it's their favorite way to pass time. Adding west bound limited would give them something new and interesting to complain about.