System Redundancy is a Good Thing and More

[realizm]

lol.. I used the B1 over in Dyker Heights... Trip was so slow... Only went to Bensonhurst too... They should put a B1 LTD in....

Yeah really I can BIKE to Dyker Heights from where I lived in BK faster then that it was so bad.

[checkmatechamp13]

I know what you said. I talked about how long I've waited for a train NOT you.  I don't see how you can compare the waits that riders have for a train vs a bus.  Two completely different things.  Most trains have service scheduled every 10 minutes or better, even the crappy lines.  The when compared with other train lines is horrendous and in fact I do everything in my power to avoid using that line. IMO it's the worst subway line in the system outside of the and the doesn't even run to the city like the does, so based on that riders by far have it the worst.

 

For starters, you asked what I'm basing this off of, and I responded that I based it off experience. Now you're backtracking with this stuff about "I talked about how long I've waited for a train NOT you"

 

Second of all, you still haven't said whether these waits were peak or off-peak, and how regularly these long waits were happening. We've all encountered huge delays at one point or another, but you have to have pretty crummy luck if almost every single trip on the involves a 20+ minute wait.

 

Yes, it's a pretty crummy subway line, but I'm saying that tens of thousands of riders a day deal with crappy service on different bus lines, and have it far worse than train riders.

[LTA1992]

Am I the only one who notices that the comes every 8 minutes as scheduled? I actually use it very often.

[Threxx]

Am I the only one who notices that the comes every 8 minutes as scheduled? I actually use it very often.

 

Well obviously you have better luck than I... I tend to have to wait 20 minutes for one...

[Brooklyn]

 Now you're backtracking with this stuff about "I talked about how long I've waited for a train NOT you"

Get used to that with this particular poster .

 

As for the article, I like the distinction he made between "duplicative" and "parallel".

But he introduces a new term "system redundancy" so as not to use the MTA terms.

 

He likes redundancy because:

1. One route may get delayed and another one can take over so the trip can be completed

2. One route may be overwhelmed and another one can help.

 

I generally agree about system redundancy and his point about the (B49)--I also feel it should run down Ocean Av and hang right on Empire Blvd and continue its route. Of course, some riders on Bedford and Rogers might get a little upset.

 

I never understood the routing of the (B57) (B62) and (B69) in Downtown Brooklyn (along Flushing and Park).....All three of those buses should run either on Flushing or Park and ALL OF THEM (including the 69) need to loop to Jay st for the subway connections.

 

That way residents of the PJs there and others can just hop on one of the three buses and get to the subways easily...all three of those routes run infrequently (maybe save the 62, but even that has long wait times), so why have people play guessing games?

 

Also, I always felt the (B26) should run with the (B25) and until Bedford and Nostrand Avs and make the turns there on to Halsey st.

 

Also, do the B100, B2, and B31  really have to run on different streets for good portions of their routes? I am sure all of them can use Avenue R to get to the Kings HWY station. I am also sure the 2 and 100 can run with each other on either Fillmore or Av R then split up at Flatbush AV...for the life of me, I never understood this....

[checkmatechamp13]

I never understood the routing of the (B57) (B62) and (B69) in Downtown Brooklyn (along Flushing and Park).....All three of those buses should run either on Flushing or Park and ALL OF THEM (including the 69) need to loop to Jay st for the subway connections.

 

That way residents of the PJs there and others can just hop on one of the three buses and get to the subways easily...all three of those routes run infrequently (maybe save the 62, but even that has long wait times), so why have people play guessing games?

 

Also, I always felt the (B26) should run with the (B25) and until Bedford and Nostrand Avs and make the turns there on to Halsey st.

 

Also, do the B100, B2, and B31  really have to run on different streets for good portions of their routes? I am sure all of them can use Avenue R to get to the Kings HWY station. I am also sure the 2 and 100 can run with each other on either Fillmore or Av R then split up at Flatbush AV...for the life of me, I never understood this....

 

Yeah, I always thought that, in general, if you have two or more routes with a sizable portion where they're a block apart, they should just run on the same block, assuming that they don't have different purposes (for instance, the S46 serves Castleton, which is slower and more comercial, while the S44 serves Cary, which is quicker and more residential), or if the areas are isolated from each other for one reason or another).

 

With the B57/62/69, I definitely think the B69 should go to Williamsburg, so that takes it out of the equation. With the B57, I'm torn between sending it though the Navy Yard (instead of the B67 extension) or sending it along Park with the B62 (Park is more central, and from what people have said, it gets less traffic). But either way, like you said, they get the advantages of the combined headways, and the people in the projects have the maximum amount of service to/from Jay Street.

 

The other two I agree with you on 100%.

 

And believe me, I've gotten used to him trying to backtrack and change his arguments and all that. It's just that I've gotten better at calling him out on it over the years.

[Brooklyn]

Yeah, I always thought that, in general, if you have two or more routes with a sizable portion where they're a block apart, they should just run on the same block, assuming that they don't have different purposes (for instance, the S46 serves Castleton, which is slower and more comercial, while the S44 serves Cary, which is quicker and more residential), or if the areas are isolated from each other for one reason or another).

 

With the B57/62/69, I definitely think the B69 should go to Williamsburg, so that takes it out of the equation. With the B57, I'm torn between sending it though the Navy Yard (instead of the B67 extension) or sending it along Park with the B62 (Park is more central, and from what people have said, it gets less traffic). But either way, like you said, they get the advantages of the combined headways, and the people in the projects have the maximum amount of service to/from Jay Street.

 

The other two I agree with you on 100%.

 

And believe me, I've gotten used to him trying to backtrack and change his arguments and all that. It's just that I've gotten better at calling him out on it over the years.

That's why from now on I am pretty much not going to engage him. You should see the recent locked thread LOL.

 

What the MTA needs to understand (of course they won't) is that people want some reliability and predictability..the route number in itself might not be as relevant as they think: they just want to get from point A to point B.

 

So if a person knows his buses are on Av R, he will simply walk there and has a choice of three routes to get him to the subway. If there is a delay on the [b2] and [b100], then the [b31] can pick up the slack.

 

This is the smart thing to do, because this can also HIDE lack of service on other routes so people won't complain.

 

If the B26 went further on Fulton to at least Bedford/Nostrand, then fewer people would complain about the B25 (up to that point anyway).

 

But the traffic situation on Fulton (from Bedford to New York Avs) has to be addressed.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 

 

That's why from now on I am pretty much not going to engage him. You should see the recent locked thread LOL.

 

What the MTA needs to understand (of course they won't) is that people want some reliability and predictability..the route number in itself might not be as relevant as they think: they just want to get from point A to point B.

 

So if a person knows his buses are on Av R, he will simply walk there and has a choice of three routes to get him to the subway. If there is a delay on the [b2] and [b100], then the [b31] can pick up the slack.

 

This is the smart thing to do, because this can also HIDE lack of service on other routes so people won't complain.

 

If the B26 went further on Fulton to at least Bedford/Nostrand, then fewer people would complain about the B25 (up to that point anyway).

 

But the traffic situation on Fulton (from Bedford to New York Avs) has to be addressed.

Oh please...   As for your comment about the "smart" thing to do, that sounds like a great idea but it works like crap in reality.  The is not supplying service to the point to where buses can screw up and you can still get decent service.  Not like the old days anymore.  The B2, B100 and B31 all serve different purposes and if they were combined, I'm almost certain that the would try to cut one line citing too many routes along Avenue R.  Avenue R does not need that much service.  It's better to keep the B100 where it is.

 

 

 

For starters, you asked what I'm basing this off of, and I responded that I based it off experience. Now you're backtracking with this stuff about "I talked about how long I've waited for a train NOT you"

 

Second of all, you still haven't said whether these waits were peak or off-peak, and how regularly these long waits were happening. We've all encountered huge delays at one point or another, but you have to have pretty crummy luck if almost every single trip on the involves a 20+ minute wait.

 

Yes, it's a pretty crummy subway line, but I'm saying that tens of thousands of riders a day deal with crappy service on different bus lines, and have it far worse than train riders.

Okay, so that's your experience... My experience has been different.... I don't see how that's backtracking at all... I've used the during rush hour and off-peak and it always runs like crap unless I happen to get lucky and catch one as I'm coming downstairs.  Several people have complained about long waits for the so apparently it's common.

[checkmatechamp13]

Oh please...   As for your comment about the "smart" thing to do, that sounds like a great idea but it works like crap in reality.  The is not supplying service to the point to where buses can screw up and you can still get decent service.  Not like the old days anymore.  The B2, B100 and B31 all serve different purposes and if they were combined, I'm almost certain that the would try to cut one line citing too many routes along Avenue R.  Avenue R does not need that much service.  It's better to keep the B100 where it is.

 

And that's the whole point: The MTA isn't running enough service to allow for screw-ups. If you're dealing with a route that runs every 15 minutes, and a bus goes missing, that means you could be waiting 30 minutes or more. If you have two routes running every 15 minutes each, and they're both on the same street, that means that if one screws up, you likely won't wait longer than 15 minutes.

 

They have different purposes, but they also have common purposes. Their common purpose is to get people in Marine Park over to the subway. Their different purposes are based on their eastern terminals (providing coverage to Mill Basin & Gerritsen Beach for the B31/100, and providing a direct connection to Kings Plaza for the B2). There are plenty of lines that have branches at either end.

 

I mean, you don't know how service is right now, if all the buses are showing up on time. If buses aren't showing up, then it'll help.

 

As for cutting service, it's not like we're talking about super-frequent routes here. On the weekends, the B2 runs every 20 minutes while the B100 runs every 30 minutes. So that means we're talking about service every 12 minutes if they were combined. Throw in the B31 (every 20 minutes) and we're talking about a bus every 7-8 minutes at most (and it's for less than a mile). I mean, if worse comes to worse, they could take the B31 and move it to Quentin Road, so that it's only the B2/100 on the same street, and the B31 is seperate.

 

Okay, so that's your experience... My experience has been different.... I don't see how that's backtracking at all... I've used the during rush hour and off-peak and it always runs like crap unless I happen to get lucky and catch one as I'm coming downstairs.  Several people have complained about long waits for the so apparently it's common.

 

You come here talking about "Oh, what are you basing the frequencies of the off of?". I respond that it's based on experience. Then you come in here with this stuff about how you were talking about your experiences with the , not mine.

 

No, you weren't talking about yourself. You asked me a question and I answered.

 

Yes, I know the runs like crap, but my point is how often are you experiencing excessive waits? Have you timed it to see if it was 20+ minutes, and how often  it's occurred?

[BrooklynBus]

I never understood the routing of the (B57) (B62) and (B69) in Downtown Brooklyn (along Flushing and Park).....All three of those buses should run either on Flushing or Park and ALL OF THEM (including the 69) need to loop to Jay st for the subway connections.

 

That way residents of the PJs there and others can just hop on one of the three buses and get to the subways easily...all three of those routes run infrequently (maybe save the 62, but even that has long wait times), so why have people play guessing games?

 

Also, do the B100, B2, and B31  really have to run on different streets for good portions of their routes? I am sure all of them can use Avenue R to get to the Kings HWY station. I am also sure the 2 and 100 can run with each other on either Fillmore or Av R then split up at Flatbush AV...for the life of me, I never understood this....

 

The B63 and B69 terminate where they do because they are remnants of their trolley counterparts that used to go over the Brooklyn Bridge.  When service was cut back they just terminated them at the High Street subway station and offered a free transfer to the subway there until Metrocard Gold added bus subway transfers all over.

 

This is the story with the B100, B2 and B31.  The B31 use to operate to the Avenue U subway station until about 1993. The B2 began operation on its present route in 1936.  When Mill Basin was developed in the 1960s, the MTA did not want to provide service so a private company, Pioneer which later became Command stepped in. They were not allowed to operate along Avenue R because the TA had the franchise to use that street so they chose the parallel Quentin Road, but only made stops every quarter-mile instead of every two blocks like the B2 so as not to compete with the B2.

 

Nowadays, it makes no sense anymore to use two streets anymore. All three routes should use Avenue R west of Nostrand Avenue for the reasons Checkmate Champ stated. East of Nostrand the B2 and B100 should use Quentin Road and East 36th Street before splitting up to minimize walking distances to the buses.  They remain separate because MTA Bus and NYCT Bus are still operated separately with no integration which could provide greater operating efficiencies if they were merged. I guess legal issues,union issues, and financial issues (the city subsidizes MTA Bus) have thus far prevented that from happening. 

[Grand Concourse]

Well i think the b2 and b100 should be consolidated. Really the b2 west of Fb would be kept and then it could swing up utica and continue on via fillmore to replace the b100. Riders should transfer for the q35/b9/b41/b46 to get to kings plaza. There is no need for the b2 to go to kp. Obviously to compensate for the transfer, the driver would issue a free transfer for those getting off on Fb av.

[Brooklyn]

The B63 and B69 terminate where they do because they are remnants of their trolley counterparts that used to go over the Brooklyn Bridge.  When service was cut back they just terminated them at the High Street subway station and offered a free transfer to the subway there until Metrocard Gold added bus subway transfers all over.

 

This is the story with the B100, B2 and B31.  The B31 use to operate to the Avenue U subway station until about 1993. The B2 began operation on its present route in 1936.  When Mill Basin was developed in the 1960s, the MTA did not want to provide service so a private company, Pioneer which later became Command stepped in. They were not allowed to operate along Avenue R because the TA had the franchise to use that street so they chose the parallel Quentin Road, but only made stops every quarter-mile instead of every two blocks like the B2 so as not to compete with the B2.

 

Nowadays, it makes no sense anymore to use two streets anymore. All three routes should use Avenue R west of Nostrand Avenue for the reasons Checkmate Champ stated. East of Nostrand the B2 and B100 should use Quentin Road and East 36th Street before splitting up to minimize walking distances to the buses.  They remain separate because MTA Bus and NYCT Bus are still operated separately with no integration which could provide greater operating efficiencies if they were merged. I guess legal issues,union issues, and financial issues (the city subsidizes MTA Bus) have thus far prevented that from happening. 

Thanks for the history lesson.

 

Many of the bus patterns are as they are because they follow the old trolley routes--the MTA is loathe to change things.

 

Thanks for the differentiation between NYC Transit and MTA bus...didn't think of that.

[BrooklynBus]

Well i think the b2 and b100 should be consolidated. Really the b2 west of Fb would be kept and then it could swing up utica and continue on via fillmore to replace the b100. Riders should transfer for the q35/b9/b41/b46 to get to kings plaza. There is no need for the b2 to go to kp. Obviously to compensate for the transfer, the driver would issue a free transfer for those getting off on Fb av.

I pretty much agree. If the ridership justifies it, the only times I would keep the B2 to Kings Plaza would be on the weekends.

[B35 via Church]

Well i think the b2 and b100 should be consolidated. Really the b2 west of Fb would be kept and then it could swing up utica and continue on via fillmore to replace the b100. Riders should transfer for the q35/b9/b41/b46 to get to kings plaza. There is no need for the b2 to go to kp.

 

Obviously to compensate for the transfer, the driver would issue a free transfer for those getting off on Fb av.

To be honest, I don't think you would get most folks to disembark at f'bush/fillmore to xfer for a KP bound bus anyway..... If you were to consolidate the B2/B100, the thinking would likely be that the 100 would put folks close enough to KP to where they could walk it out.... Which is exactly what's done on the current Mill Basin bound 100 at E. 53rd/E. 54th (whichever corner that stop is on) for those that want KP......

 

I don't think I have ever seen anyone get off a Mill Basin bound 100 for a KP bound 46.....

 

Anyway, Something similar goes on w/ the Q58/Q59.... The people that cram onto the 58/58LTD/59 from the west that need Queens Center mall, walk it out from broadway/QB (north side of QB).... I'm a bit surprised at how many people make/take that walk too.... Never understood why the 59 riders don't just get off at the Woodhaven/QB stop, en masse..... Q59's tank at the grand/QB stop (south side of QB, before the turn onto QB)....

[qjtransitmaster]

 

 

 

 

For starters, I said 12 minutes, not 10. 12 minutes when the train is scheduled every 6 minutes means that you're waiting twice as long as you should for a train. Not to mention the fact that I said this is during rush hour (especially since we're talking about the old M train). Yes, off-peak, when the trains are scheduled to run every 10 minutes, it's easily possible for you to wait a lot longer than that.

 

I use the fairly often, considering that I live on Staten Island, and there haven't been many times when I've waited over twice the scheduled headways for a train. Does it happen? Of course, but it's not on any sort of regular basis. If a train was scheduled every 10 minutes, I don't recall waiting longer than 20 minutes for that train.

 

My point is that there are plenty of riders who have it a lot worse. There are plenty of bus routes that have bunching problems worse than the train. If you have a long route with crummy headways, that travels through congested corridors (whether it's passenger traffic, automobile traffic, or both), you end up with those issues. Routes like the M20 & S78 would be good examples, and there's plenty of other routes where people have complained of long waits for various reasons (B47, Q38, etc).

 

 

FYI people take the if they want frequent reliable 7th ave service or for 8th ave only old people put up with M20 north of 14th street and a few tourists. I boarded a northbound M20 at battery park city I was the lone person on it till 14th.  I don't think people care about the M20 so they don't complain. BUT I feel their pain with lines like Q38 and B47 ouch no other options where M20 has several options.

lol.. I used the B1 over in Dyker Heights... Trip was so slow... Only went to Bensonhurst too... They should put a B1 LTD in.... 

LOL

 

Agreed.plus the needs to keep its promises too.Examples:

1.86 Street was renovated(as most of us know)BUT the "forgot"that 86th was and still is one of the 100 key ADA stations,got the wheelchair boarding "bump"(for lack of a better phrase) and they forgot the elevator... [facepalm]

2.Bay Ridge,77th,86th and 95th were reported BY THE to recieve the countdown clocks like the ones at Atlantic-Barclays.ONLY 86th got them and they have never been in use...

3.the /   swap has been EXTREMELY successful in terms of ridership but the s reliabilty has been abismal...One of every 3 buses in the timetable NEVER shows up

4.the lack of a b37 and the ghost replacement has severly angered many in the Bay Ridge community

XcelsiorBoii probably remembers me being late many time to PolyPrep during the past summer because of the lack of scheduling with the

B70 runs like shit what do you expect service levels in southern brooklyn suck.

[Fresh Pond]

Well obviously you have better luck than I... I tend to have to wait 20 minutes for one...

I must have some good luck then...I usually wait no more than 10 minutes on the off chances I need the

[peacemak3r]

I must have some good luck then...I usually wait no more than 10 minutes on the off chances I need the

 

I believe I'm in the middle, in Brooklyn (Jay Street-Metrotech) I have a usual wait time of 15 minutes of so for that .  But whenever I'm in Manhattan, I catch the within seconds.  Sad first world problems right there.

 

That B70 would have problems because of the idiots double parking and not knowing how to drive on 8th Ave, Brooklyn imo.

[CenSin]

That B70 would have problems because of the idiots double parking and not knowing how to drive on 8th Ave, Brooklyn imo.

8 Avenue is hell for vehicles and foot traffic until it's dark outside or you are traveling outside the range of 62 Street–52 Street.

[checkmatechamp13]

Anyway, Something similar goes on w/ the Q58/Q59.... The people that cram onto the 58/58LTD/59 from the west that need Queens Center mall, walk it out from broadway/QB (north side of QB).... I'm a bit surprised at how many people make/take that walk too.... Never understood why the 59 riders don't just get off at the Woodhaven/QB stop, en masse..... Q59's tank at the grand/QB stop (south side of QB, before the turn onto QB)....

 

Part of it could be that if people see that it's a big stop, it takes a minute or two to unload all the people, so people just walk out of impatience.

 

FYI people take the if they want frequent reliable 7th ave service or for 8th ave only old people put up with M20 north of 14th street and a few tourists. I boarded a northbound M20 at battery park city I was the lone person on it till 14th.  I don't think people care about the M20 so they don't complain. BUT I feel their pain with lines like Q38 and B47 ouch no other options where M20 has several options.

 

FYI, I already knew that. If I didn't already know it from experience, I would know by the million times you mentioned it before.

 

Stop using every single topic as a springboard to start bashing Manhattan buses.

[B35 via Church]

Part of it could be that if people see that it's a big stop, it takes a minute or two to unload all the people, so people just walk out of impatience.

 

 

FYI, I already knew that. If I didn't already know it from experience, I would know by the million times you mentioned it before.

Stop using every single topic as a springboard to start bashing Manhattan buses.

Yeah, that's gotten annoying out of him.....

 

Anyway, You may be right - because that's the same reason I've done it..... I also think it has something to do w/ (not wanting to) cross Queens Blvd. itself (with the Q58/58LTD anyway).... Q59 riders don't have a choice, unless they're gonna walk it out from the last stop, back west (which I've also done and won't do again, even though I now know the right way to do it... live & learn...)

 

^^ [see here - google street view]....

If you don't know the immediate area, it's very easy to find yourself about to walk up the LIE entrance ramp!]

 

* If you're looking at the map.... where that lady is on the right, that's coming from along Queens blvd.... if you continue walking straight in that direction (where that tow truck is), that's the LIE entrance ramp - which is exactly what I did & was like wtf when I had to backtrack.... Instead of walking straight, what you gotta do is cross that second crosswalk (where those 2 people are standing) from right to left & stay to the right of that concrete beam, then proceed walking towards Queens center mall.... You don't wanna be to the left of that concrete beam because it exposes you to Queens blvd traffic....

 

Just useless information on my part, I guess....

[bobtehpanda]

 

Anyway, You may be right - because that's the same reason I've done it..... I also think it has something to do w/ (not wanting to) cross Queens Blvd. itself (with the Q58/58LTD anyway).... Q59 riders don't have a choice, unless they're gonna walk it out from the last stop, back west (which I've also done and won't do again, even though I now know the right way to do it... live & learn...)

 

^^ [see here - google street view]....

If you don't know the immediate area, it's very easy to find yourself about to walk up the LIE entrance ramp!]

 

* If you're looking at the map.... where that lady is on the right, that's coming from along Queens blvd.... if you continue walking straight in that direction (where that tow truck is), that's the LIE entrance ramp - which is exactly what I did & was like wtf when I had to backtrack.... Instead of walking straight, what you gotta do is cross that second crosswalk (where those 2 people are standing) from right to left & stay to the right of that concrete beam, then proceed walking towards Queens center mall.... You don't wanna be to the left of that concrete beam because it exposes you to Queens blvd traffic....

 

Just useless information on my part, I guess....

 

Seconded.

 

Queens Boulevard is about as pedestrian unfriendly as it gets, short of an actual highway. This isn't surprising, considering that Queens Blvd was eventually slated to be converted into an expressway the same way Van Wyck Boulevard was.

[BrooklynBus]

Seconded.

 

Queens Boulevard is about as pedestrian unfriendly as it gets, short of an actual highway. This isn't surprising, considering that Queens Blvd was eventually slated to be converted into an expressway the same way Van Wyck Boulevard was.

It's not that unfriendly although some of the intersections could use a redesign. I crossed it last week several times and found I was able to get through the entire intersection on a single signal walking at a leasurely pace. That surprised me. What more would you want short of turning it into a pedestrian mall?

[Grand Concourse]

They don't need to turn it into a pedestrian mall, but they could build some islands in the middle so people can wait there behind a barrier (something like the ones on Broadway above lincoln center). Cuz I doubt they are going to build pedestrian bridges even on the parts where the subway no longer runs under QB. 

On the topics of 'highways' I think Kings Highway as it is was a mistake, there are parts of the road with extremely sharp turns and I think they'd be better off just cutting it up and reconnect other roads that were cut up. Not saying turn KH into several pedestrian plazas, but areas where the turns are very sharp should be abolished and they build a real highway that's a little more strait.

[bobtehpanda]

It's not that unfriendly although some of the intersections could use a redesign. I crossed it last week several times and found I was able to get through the entire intersection on a single signal walking at a leasurely pace. That surprised me. What more would you want short of turning it into a pedestrian mall?

 

Some areas are worse than others (Woodhaven and the Union Turnpike interchange).

 

There's a reason it's called "the Boulevard of Death."

[Interested Rider]

Kings Highway dates back from colonial times and it actually went further west into Bensonhurst.. For further information as to its development of the road check Brian Merlis' books on Brooklyn (Flatlands and Bensonhurst are excellent sources) which has pictures and descriptions of the widening of Kings Highway during the early part of last century.