Why did Robert Moses hate mass transit?

[Airplanepilotgod8888]

Why did Robert Moses hate the subway and built highways and expressways instead? 

[4P3607]

I don't think he "hated" mass transit... He just loved the idea of people using cars.

[Quill Depot]

He didn't hate the subway. He had a dream to make a "better" New York utopia geared towards expansion. While he was stuck into highways he forgot about the subway. You can't blame him, his utopia was beautiful until reality struck.

[DJ MC]

Yep it's true. He didn't hate transit. Matter of fact he actually didn't want the 3rd Avenue El (section in Manhattan) to close down until the SAS was built.

[BreeddekalbL]

though im a yankees fan i personally think he ran the dodgers out of town. 

[Roadcruiser1]

He didn't hate mass transit. He was a man of his time. He lived in a time when the car was the future and gas was cheap. He never saw that cars would become expensive or that gas would become expensive. It just never happened in his time..........

[LTA1992]

Though I would love to get a glimpse into the world where his shot down proposals or original ideas, like the Brooklyn-Battery Bridge, were actually realized. But that wish can be extended to the Second System.

 

If only I had the intelligence to attempt fringe science.

[B35 via Church]

Why did Robert Moses hate the subway and built highways and expressways instead? 

Moses wasn't anti-transit.... While there's a lot of hate for the guy, that's the most common mischaracterization about him....

 

He was one of those planners that was overly focused on moving motorists around in the city....

(while none of us have the accolades that Moses has, We on these transit forums are [obviously] overly focused on the opposite side of the coin - meaning, moving ppl. around in the city by buses & subways)

[mediccjh]

though im a yankees fan i personally think he ran the dodgers out of town. 

He did. O'Malley wanted a new Ebbetts Field, they didn't agree on location, Moses told O'Malley that he'd never take the Dodgers out of Brooklyn. Walter called Bob's Bluff.

[MHV9218]

He didn't hate the subway. He had a dream to make a "better" New York utopia geared towards expansion. While he was stuck into highways he forgot about the subway. You can't blame him, his utopia was beautiful until reality struck.

 

Beautiful utopia? More like an insanely polluted, insanely segregated city with worse conditions for the middle and lower classes and miles and miles of ugly concrete road structures. 

[Turbo19]

Beautiful utopia? More like an insanely polluted, insanely segregated city with worse conditions for the middle and lower classes and miles and miles of ugly concrete road structures. 

Very accurate. Thanks for focusing on the adverse affects during his term.

 

Moses didn't hate transit as much as he looked to segregate those of a lower income standing and favor those of a higher standing (which in itself could be viewed as a form of hate). Coincidentally those belonging to the aforementioned group were very reliant on transit, and as such Moses did look for ways to adversely affect the group. In fact many projects constructed and built at the time impeded a great amount of public services almost purposely.

 

As it stands even today there is much evidence of attempted segregation by him, directly or not. Whether he was supposedly looking for the public's best interest or solely the self interests of his own no one can deny the fact that under his governance a massive amount of NYC residents (many of low income and/or minority) were displaced (usually due of roadway projects), in general autos and auto owners were placed as a higher priority then transit and transit riders, many thriving neighborhoods were left to decay, two MLB teams (The Brooklyn Dodgers & New York Giants) were driven out of the city, and let's not forget the neglect of many public services, including public transportation.

 

With all of that said it is disheartening and near repulsive that he gets such a great amount of praise, especially by people on a pro transit message board. To be quite honest some of you in here make me sick.

 

Continue on with the discussion.

[bobtehpanda]

Robert Moses being a crappy planner is directly correlated to the overreach of Modernism (in all forms) during the postwar period. Modernism, when first initiated, was a very nice concept - the Art-Deco and Neo-Classical crap was becoming extremely gaudy and unpleasant, and Modernism was a move back to simpler, organic forms. The Bauhaus school of thought and Tel Aviv's White City are very good examples of how aesthetically pleasing early Modernism was.

 

The problems started occurring only when people started thinking you could apply this kind of thought to the social sciences. People need wide, open spaces, and it'll be better for their health! Thus, a lot of architects started thinking about applying it to life in general. Even Frank Lloyd Wright got into it - he designed a city called Broadacres, with the explicit intention of keeping population density below one person per meter. You also had people like Le Corbusier, who wanted to demolish the traditional Parisian neighborhoods and replace them with high-density monolithic tower blocks sprinkled around parkland. (This was the inspiration for housing projects in New York.)

 

But how would all this low density be maintained? The answer? Cars! Cars were to be prioritized in the modern Utopia, and this is shown in the various state capitals that were designed during the Modernist era. Brasilia is a particularly egregious example:

 

 

In this line of thinking, wide roads were merely a means of achieving an end. Robert Moses was just a facilitator.

 

(The other part of the Robert Moses thing and highways is that he was the head of the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority. His political power came from his power to issue bonds on TBTA tolls for more road construction, which caused more motorists to use the Triboro and pay more in tolls that he could then bond. It was an extremely powerful feedback loop.)

[Roadcruiser1]

While one can say Robert Moses did a lot of bad things you can't say that he was all bad. He was in fact a paradox. He was someone that both help benefit and hurt the city. The good things Robert Moses did includes the parks and pools that he built, the New York World's Fair of 1939/1964, Jones Beach, the amount of bridges he built including the Triborough Bridge along with the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, all the expressways that help move people, and the fact that millions of people today benefits from what he did. You can't say he was all bad..........

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

While one can say Robert Moses did a lot of bad things you can't say that he was all bad. He was in fact a paradox. He was someone that both help benefit and hurt the city. The good things Robert Moses did includes the parks and pools that he built, the New York World's Fair of 1939/1964, Jones Beach, the amount of bridges he built including the Triborough Bridge along with the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, all the expressways that help move people, and the fact that millions of people today benefits from what he did. You can't say he was all bad..........

However to do that work, he destroyed plenty of homes and made people move, which wasnt a good thing. Sure he did help, but he also was hated by people.

[Grand Concourse]

The VZ bridge should've been designed with the capability to carry rail traffic over it, that's a big oversight or intentional snub. As for the roads, it would've been ideal if it wasn't a jumbled mess. (No pattern and just zig zags all over.)

I will say that they should've allowed an expressway from the Manny B to the Holland tunnel. That would've helped big time for those on Long Island wanting to get to Jersey and beyond. Such a pita being stuck in LM with all the traffic lights and merging from the other lanes.

[Roadcruiser1]

The VZ bridge should've been designed with the capability to carry rail traffic over it, that's a big oversight or intentional snub. As for the roads, it would've been ideal if it wasn't a jumbled mess. (No pattern and just zig zags all over.)

I will say that they should've allowed an expressway from the Manny B to the Holland tunnel. That would've helped big time for those on Long Island wanting to get to Jersey and beyond. Such a pita being stuck in LM with all the traffic lights and merging from the other lanes.

The Verrazano Narrows Bridge was designed to not be able to handle rail traffic. I had my history teachers from High School tell me that since their families knew. Robert Moses wanted to prevent trains from using it. That's why the ramps leading to the bridge are so steep (5% grade) and the steel for the bridge is so light. Any idea to put subway trains on it will require the bridge to be retrofitted which would be extremely costly and won't happen. He also stopped the idea of installing a walkway or bicycle lanes on the bridge for the very same reasons. Robert loved cars so much that he forgot about the future and only saw his path.

 

As for what you said about the expressways he did have a proposal for that. It was the Lower Manhattan Expressway and if he got his way it would have ravaged Lower Manhattan and Chinatown. Here is map of what it would look like..........

 

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3597/3311101496_b0f6218344_o.png

He also proposed another one called the Mid Manhattan Expressway which would have done the same thing. It would have ran next to 30th Street destroying Midtown..........

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3651/3311102680_bf7110b18b_b.jpg

[Turbo19]

Sorry if it seems like I'm antagonizing you in the next replies, as those aren't my intentions at all. Moving on.

 

While one can say Robert Moses did a lot of bad things you can't say that he was all bad. He was in fact a paradox. He was someone that both help benefit and hurt the city. The good things Robert Moses did includes the parks and pools that he built, the New York World's Fair of 1939/1964, Jones Beach, the amount of bridges he built including the Triborough Bridge along with the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, all the expressways that help move people, and the fact that millions of people today benefits from what he did. You can't say he was all bad..........

Sure, let's look at his contributions to the city. The amount of pools built did benefit city residents, but Moses also personally benefited as he was an avid swimmer. In that case he was also looking for his self interests. Furthermore there is evidence he wanted to segregate minorities from these facilities to some degree using various methods.

 

In regard to the World's Fair Moses wasn't directly responsible, and as for the 1964 event it may not have even happened had Moses got his way with "The Queens Dodgers" occupying the site.

 

In particular Jones Beach State Park was another way to segregate people. The way the park was constructed made it difficult for the car free to reach the area, which made it a near guarantee that everyone traveled in autos, via the parkways Moses himself built through forceful eminent domain.

 

As for the bridges we all know they favored car owners to a great extent. Once again forceful eminent domain was used through much of the process which caused a massive amount of hardship to residents.

 

Sorry, not seeing the benefits.
 

 

The Verrazano Narrows Bridge was designed to not be able to handle rail traffic. I had my history teachers from High School tell me that since their families knew. Robert Moses wanted to prevent trains from using it. That's why the ramps leading to the bridge are so steep (5% grade) and the steel for the bridge is so light. Any idea to put subway trains on it will require the bridge to be retrofitted which would be extremely costly and won't happen. He also stopped the idea of installing a walkway or bicycle lanes on the bridge for the very same reasons. Robert loved cars so much that he forgot about the future and only saw his path.

And one last question.

 

You know that Moses purposely designed many roadways to be ill equipped to handle mass transit and pedestrian demands.

 

Why is it that you view and portray such projects in such a positive light?

 

Who stood to benefit then and who stands to benefit now?

 

Do you not view a coincidence between Moses' roadway projects and other public works projects that would evidence or suggest any segregation or discrimination?

 

Looking forward to your reply and anyone else may add as they like.

[LTA1992]

He did. O'Malley wanted a new Ebbetts Field, they didn't agree on location, Moses told O'Malley that he'd never take the Dodgers out of Brooklyn. Walter called Bob's Bluff.

That and the location where the new Ebbetts Field was to be build is exactly where that extremely ugly Barclays Center is now.

[B35 via Church]

 

The VZ bridge should've been designed with the capability to carry rail traffic over it

 

The Verrazano Narrows Bridge was designed to not be able to handle rail traffic.

He never said it was....

He's stating an opinion, you're stating a fact.

 

What I will say is, I don't agree with having the VZ handle rail traffic.... We don't need another Manhattan Bridge-like bridge in this city; shit, they have been doing construction on that bridge for like 50 years now..... For the purpose for having a rail line travel b/w brooklyn & staten island, have some other structure propped up for that separate purpose or whatever... There's nothin sayin that automobile travel & rail travel have to travel over the same crossing/structure....

[Grand Concourse]

If the tracks are built in the center than the sides, it shouldn't have the swaying issue the manny b has. I would think at most two tracks (1 per direction) for si to brooklyn would be enough. I don't mean that the vz had to have trains running on it, but being the connection b/w the 2 boroughs, it could've been looked into as well as taking a bunch of local buses off the bridge. (Maybe keep a shuttle bus line like the b39 over the willy b).

I am not optimistic on a passenger rail tunnel from bk to si, but obviously that is what is going to be built (if they get the funds and support for it) as they aren't going to redesign the vz bridge or build a new one just for trains to cross.

[Roadcruiser1]

Sorry if it seems like I'm antagonizing you in the next replies, as those aren't my intentions at all. Moving on.

 

Sure, let's look at his contributions to the city. The amount of pools built did benefit city residents, but Moses also personally benefited as he was an avid swimmer. In that case he was also looking for his self interests. Furthermore there is evidence he wanted to segregate minorities from these facilities to some degree using various methods.

 

In regard to the World's Fair Moses wasn't directly responsible, and as for the 1964 event it may not have even happened had Moses got his way with "The Queens Dodgers" occupying the site.

 

In particular Jones Beach State Park was another way to segregate people. The way the park was constructed made it difficult for the car free to reach the area, which made it a near guarantee that everyone traveled in autos, via the parkways Moses himself built through forceful eminent domain.

 

As for the bridges we all know they favored car owners to a great extent. Once again forceful eminent domain was used through much of the process which caused a massive amount of hardship to residents.

 

Sorry, not seeing the benefits.

 

And one last question.

 

You know that Moses purposely designed many roadways to be ill equipped to handle mass transit and pedestrian demands.

 

Why is it that you view and portray such projects in such a positive light?

 

Who stood to benefit then and who stands to benefit now?

 

Do you not view a coincidence between Moses' roadway projects and other public works projects that would evidence or suggest any segregation or discrimination?

 

Looking forward to your reply and anyone else may add as they like.

The truth is Robert Moses was racist and against the poor. It is true that many of his projects like the Cross Bronx and the proposed Lower Manhattan Expressway would and did destroy the lives of many people. However I do hold him in a good light only because he seemed to be the only person that could get things done. Face it. Sometimes we do need a Robert Moses type person. We do need to build for the benefit for the city, and people will be moved for that, but isn't it good if it benefits the population??????????

 

PS I also forgot the mention that he also built the UN in NYC..........

[Joel Up Front]

He knew how to drive but didn't and never got a license.  I know how that feels but I still hate this guy.

[QM1to6Ave]

One of the big ironies is that one of the main offices (for bridges and tunnels, I believe), is located in one of Moses' buildings on Randalls Island. He'd probably turn in his grave if he knew his space was given over to the MTA

[bobtehpanda]

Robert Moses is a terrible person - the original Interstate System under Eisenhower was not supposed to enter urban areas (most would've terminated at an outer ring road or something, European style), but Moses and other traffic planners convinced him otherwise.

 

It's notable that wherever Robert Moses was commissioned to build viaducts, he built them through thriving black neighborhoods - the Cross Bronx and BQE in New York, the Claibourne in New Orleans, and various other highways around the nation prove this point.

[Turbo19]

The truth is Robert Moses was racist and against the poor. It is true that many of his projects like the Cross Bronx and the proposed Lower Manhattan Expressway would and did destroy the lives of many people. However I do hold him in a good light only because he seemed to be the only person that could get things done. Face it. Sometimes we do need a Robert Moses type person. We do need to build for the benefit for the city, and people will be moved for that, but isn't it good if it benefits the population??????????

 

PS I also forgot the mention that he also built the UN in NYC..........

No, absolutely not. We do not need more like Moses.

 

Regardless, even if at the end the majority benefits (or seemingly benefits) that isn't a sufficient basis to go and adversely affect thousands of city residents. Most exemplary leaders should be considerate to the demands of everyone and try to accommodate most without inflicting a great amount of hardship.

 

Also, you mentioned the UN. That would have been built regardless, it only happens to be it was built while he was in office. Besides, after the events only hours ago I'm sure very few are thanking him for the increased activity which cause a fair share of delays.