Fleet Swap Discussion Thread

[Around the Horn]

On 12/7/2019 at 5:14 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

And doesn’t the R211 base order call for only 20 open-gangway cars in order to test the feasibility of running open gangway cars?

It's virtually guaranteed that the options will be open gangway unless some calamity come out of nowhere with the test sets...

I personally see the R211 order playing out like this:

Base order: SIR

Option 1:

Option 2:

 

[darkstar8983]

40 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

It's virtually guaranteed that the options will be open gangway unless some calamity come out of nowhere with the test sets...

I personally see the R211 order playing out like this:

Base order: SIR

Option 1:

Option 2:

 

how many 4-car units of R211s exactly will there be?

and I don't think there will be THAT many R211s that it will fully stock all those lines. with the exception of only two subway lines, all main-line (10-car units) will be stocked by R160s or R211s

Edited December 9, 2019 by darkstar8983

[JeremiahC99]

Just now, darkstar8983 said:

how many 4-car units of R211s exactly will there be?

In option 2, 32 cars will be in 4-car consists. That’s 8 4-car sets.

[darkstar8983]

1 minute ago, JeremiahC99 said:

In option 2, 32 cars will be in 4-car consists. That’s 8 4-car sets.

wow, not that much; there will still be a shortage of 4-car units (to make 8-car trains) especially if the  is planned to get CBTC, even if we were to assume the  goes full-length to 600' trains. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by darkstar8983

[darkstar8983]

1 hour ago, trainfan22 said:

It wouldn't be surprised if those leftover 160s get sent to Jamaica anyway, just so they don't have to stock parts for three fleets at CI barn.... Just like they sent leftover 142A's on the  to the  line... still bummed about that particular swap lol. 

they might, but once the full cutover is complete, and for the reason you mentioned. But now that we have reserve fleets due to the R179s apparently not retiring any cars, there might be a desire not to get too scrap-happy and end up with having to reduce service on the OTT lines   like they did with the  when SAS phase I opened. 

[JeremiahC99]

15 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

wow, not that much; there will still be a shortage of 4-car units (to make 8-car trains) especially if the  is planned to get CBTC. 

I do believe that if the all 440 base order cars are assigned to the  and  (I don’t know where the 20 open gangways test trains will go), then the 4-car R179s could then move to the / and move some of their R160 and R179s to the . 

They will have to make things work if the second option order is to be exercised. With this option, there will be 1612 cars in the order, including the 75 for the Staten Island Railway. With that amount of cars replacing nearly 15% of the fleet and expanding it as well, it might have to be done correctly. 

As of now, I’m not sure who should get them and how many, but if we assume ATH’s assumption comes to reality, then I would guess that at least 300 would be allocated for the  fleet and 140 for supplementing the ’s 130 R179s.

Edited December 9, 2019 by JeremiahC99

[m2fwannabe]

Sorry to be short but I find it believe no one seems to have figured this out yet.

ASSUMING that all are supposed to now have or to be CBTC ability.  Far as I know but someone likely knows for sure.

It appears we will see all 388 R-46's (5482-5869) from Jamaica (JYD) to Coney Island for regular use on , when required on and .

Swap for 370 R-160's, all the Alstom propulsion trains from Coney Island (CIY) to Jamaica for all R-160s old and newer on all service to  .

The numbers should be 8653-8837, then the willy-nilly numbers between 9103-9217 and 9233-9482.

It would leave 260 Siemens R-160B's 8843-9102 at Coney Island for and .

Let me know if this works out as expected.  I am not able to find myself because of the stroke.  Please let me know what happens.

Should be completed by December 22 by could be sooner.  So much a transfer will depend on shop requirements for both depending on what's ready to be moved then done inspection and when their new "barn" (facility) make each set OK for service.

Historic notes:  R-46's have been at Jamaica and are now still on since June 1975.  The last R-46 on should be very soon if not already done.

I remember R-46's on to Astoria for a week or so after the service change of May 24, 1987.  Don't remember them there in 1990's but I wasn't then there.

R-46's have never been regularly assigned to or until now.

The R-160's are basically like The Borg.  Most routes on the system for the last decade.  Resistance is Futile...

[RedLine]

They need more than that because there are 4 cars in a R46 set and 5 in a R160 set.

[trainfan22]

11 minutes ago, m2fwannabe said:

 

The R-160's are basically like The Borg.  Most routes on the system for the last decade.  Resistance is Futile...

That Star Trek reference! 

 

 

[Calvin]

32 minutes ago, m2fwannabe said:

Sorry to be short but I find it believe no one seems to have figured this out yet.

ASSUMING that all are supposed to now have or to be CBTC ability.  Far as I know but someone likely knows for sure.

It appears we will see all 388 R-46's (5482-5869) from Jamaica (JYD) to Coney Island for regular use on , when required on and .

Swap for 370 R-160's, all the Alstom propulsion trains from Coney Island (CIY) to Jamaica for all R-160s old and newer on all service to  .

The numbers should be 8653-8837, then the willy-nilly numbers between 9103-9217 and 9233-9482.

It would leave 260 Siemens R-160B's 8843-9102 at Coney Island for and .

Let me know if this works out as expected.  I am not able to find myself because of the stroke.  Please let me know what happens.

They may need the Siemens units by +70-90 b/c the total calculated is 1,030 and total for all 3 Queens Blvd  lines is at 102 = 1020 cars.  That's only 1 10 car spare, could be a mistaken calculation

 

- 1,030 cars + 80 siemens = 1,110 cars total

Edited December 9, 2019 by Calvin

[m2fwannabe]

OK.  We have a slight adjustment!

There were 396 R-46's at Jamaica (5482-5877).  5870-77 went to Jamaica in August.

I think 8838-8842 were also back in service since my last list from July.

That would swap 396 R-46's to CIY for 375 R-160's to JYD.

My mind is a little foggy because of the stroke but that's approximately right.

Let me know how it works out...

[m2fwannabe]

6 minutes ago, Calvin said:

They may need the Siemens units by +70-90 b/c the total calculated is 1,030 and total for all 3 Queens Blvd  lines is at 102 = 1020 cars.  That's only 1 10 car spare, could be a mistaken calculation

Siemens and Alstom were supposed to be able to blend but CIY never made it work right so has separated as much as possible.  Jamaica would need to have different components and protocols for the Siemens cars.  They have been potentially problems since delivered about 2007-08.  Occasionally mixed but they have not ran together well.  Jamaica will mix EVERYTHING up because of the severe equipment schedules.  Everything with wheels need it out there every day.  There's only 375 Alstom cars to send to Jamaica as now.  That makes all propulsion the same kind with fewer potential problems.

[m2fwannabe]

Others are trying to help but making things a minor mess with the fleets.  I easily get confused right now.

Remembered found this:

8773-77 and 8838-42 have been at Jamaica sometimes since December (22) 2017.

I missed the numbers but fleets are approximately right.

396 R-46's Jamaica to Coney Island.  No doubt!

I was wrong about the Siemens cars NOT going to Jamaica as someone else notified us.

Supposed to be 80 of the Siemens R-160 ARE going to Jamaica (I am surprised but that's what's required as some else said:  good job!).

This is the R-160 numbers to transfer to Jamaica are summarized as:

8653-8712=60

8713-8837=125

Not sure which end (8838 up or 9102 down) = 80 Siemens R-160B's.

Scattered numbers 9103+9217 = 55 and 9233+9482 = 70.

Grand total of 390 R-160s moving from Coney Island to Jamaica.

My apologies for the confusion.  Sorry about my present cognizant problems.  Will be in rehab and should be better soon.

Please let me know what you found out there!

 

[m2fwannabe]

Sorry its still wrong on the R-160's.

Its 80 R160's staying at Coney Island, I had it backwards.  Its 180 Siemens R-160B's going to Jamaica.  Don't know which ones hopefully as a block.  That matches up with 485 total because of the 60-footers.  You all probably figured that all out any way but anyhow.  That's the whole ball of the wax.

Lot of people trying to help me by having problems for short term.

Before the swap, total fleets were 1,121 at Jamaica and 914 at Coney Island.  Afterward they will be something like 1,210 at Jamaica and 825 at Coney Island because of the 60x75 foot lengths.

 

[m2fwannabe]

It will be interesting to see how the Siemens and Alstom R-160's mix together on and .  If there will again be problems as prior.

[Around the Horn]

2 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

and I don't think there will be THAT many R211s that it will fully stock all those lines. with the exception of only two subway lines, all main-line (10-car units) will be stocked by R160s or R211s

With all options exercised the R211 order will be 1,612 cars. I'm also not expecting the R211s to fully stock any of the lines in my list (except for Staten Island).

The and will also have the ten car R179s available for service and the will also have R160s in the regular rotation. Now that you have more new techs in the fleet with the arrival of the 211s, you've also gained more flexibility with train assignments. I guess this also means you could see some of CIY's allotment on the once or twice and perhaps the units for the make an appearance or two on the as well at times as necessary. No rollsign changing required, it's all at the push of a few buttons.

[R32 3838]

5746-49 Jamaica to Coney island

[R32 3838]

8 hours ago, m2fwannabe said:

Sorry its still wrong on the R-160's.

Its 80 R160's staying at Coney Island, I had it backwards.  Its 180 Siemens R-160B's going to Jamaica.  Don't know which ones hopefully as a block.  That matches up with 485 total because of the 60-footers.  You all probably figured that all out any way but anyhow.  That's the whole ball of the wax.

Lot of people trying to help me by having problems for short term.

Before the swap, total fleets were 1,121 at Jamaica and 914 at Coney Island.  Afterward they will be something like 1,210 at Jamaica and 825 at Coney Island because of the 60x75 foot lengths.

 

Itll probably more R160's staying at CI, remember the R46's reqire more spares than the R160's. I would say 120 R160's would stay at CI.

[R32 3838]

9 hours ago, m2fwannabe said:

Siemens and Alstom were supposed to be able to blend but CIY never made it work right so has separated as much as possible.  Jamaica would need to have different components and protocols for the Siemens cars.  They have been potentially problems since delivered about 2007-08.  Occasionally mixed but they have not ran together well.  Jamaica will mix EVERYTHING up because of the severe equipment schedules.  Everything with wheels need it out there every day.  There's only 375 Alstom cars to send to Jamaica as now.  That makes all propulsion the same kind with fewer potential problems.

They'll separate them and put special stickers on them if it becomes an issue. If it were up to me I would solely put them on the (E).

[lyncdesert-]

12 hours ago, m2fwannabe said:

It will be interesting to see how the Siemens and Alstom R-160's mix together on and .  If there will again be problems as prior.

Do you think there is a chance the jamaica yard will replace the siemens motors for alstoms just to make every single train set alstom and have no problems with mixing?

Does anyone know what the problems were or are with the siemens sets? I read somewhere that 9803-9942 were also suppsoed to have siemens motors but they got removed for alstoms in the end

[Union Tpke]

@R32 3838

Remember that 1,250 cars in 5-car sets are CBTC equipped and are going to Jamaica. That is 250 sets.

There will be 8 additional 5 car sets that will stay at Coney, making 40 cars.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Union Tpke

[Around the Horn]

1 hour ago, lyncdesert- said:

Do you think there is a chance the jamaica yard will replace the siemens motors for alstoms just to make every single train set alstom and have no problems with mixing?

Alstom ONIX is no longer in production so no.

[TrainRider Railfan]

23 hours ago, Around the Horn said:

Base order: SIR

Oh the 211s are going on the SIR? I guess it’s about time for those 44s to go like their NYCTA counterparts.

[TrainRider Railfan]

I think this swap is going very interestingly and I’m excited to see the results. Siemens on Queens Blvd will certainly be new. And the 46s on the , , , and  will make for some great open cut and elevated shots! I just can’t believe that I will never see a 46 on the  or  ever again. I grew up with these and I’m just not ready for the end. These are my home lines and 46s have always been a vital part of them. So sad to see them go.

[trainfan22]

I have a feeling that the  line at the very least will still be using 46's past Dec 23rd. Only 2 and a half sets of out like what 45? sets of R46s have been transferred so far and were already at December 9th. They can probably only transfer like 1 or 2 sets a day at most? Yea CBTC will only be starting on the express tracks but service disruptions and G.O's...