News Coalition urging MTA to restore “express” F train service

[CenSin]

@CenSin

 

Hey, you can treat any train/buses routes as race cars all you want. That's you. So I guess 5 stops is too much for you to handle then that is. Meanwhile, screwing up riders at those 5 local stops just so you can shave an itsy bitsy 1-2 minutes off your commute.

Whether the riders are screwed or not depends on how the service is implemented. It's already been accepted that because of Park Slope and Queens, riders between Kings Highway and Church Avenue currently get excess service.

 

Furthermore, why not apply your logic to any of the other express runs in the system like the on Grand Concourse, on White Plains Road, and along Broadway (Brooklyn), or the and skip-stop which skips 6~7 stations? The skips only 6 stations in the Bronx. The skips only 7. The and skip 3 stops along Broadway, and 6 or 7 stops (respectively) during their skip-stop run.

 

Define "screwed."

[MysteriousBtrain]

Isnt F train express line only a single track? Between the local tracks?

 

It is, but only between Church Avenue and Avenue X. Between Church Avenue and Jay Street, there are two tracks instead.

 

[RollOver]

Whether the riders are screwed or not depends on how the service is implemented. It's already been accepted that because of Park Slope and Queens, riders between Kings Highway and Church Avenue currently get excess service.

 

Furthermore, why not apply your logic to any of the other express runs in the system like the on Grand Concourse, on White Plains Road, and along Broadway (Brooklyn), or the and skip-stop which skips 6~7 stations? The skips only 6 stations in the Bronx. The skips only 7. The and skip 3 stops along Broadway, and 6 or 7 stops (respectively) during their skip-stop run.

 

Define "screwed."

 

Lmfao. Express makes fewer stops and Local makes all stops. Express alleviates crowding without having to increase the frequency of a train that's making all stops. Point blank and nothing more. It has to do with ridership and also demands, not be "faster". If I'm not mistaken, those corridors you've mention are busy during the rush.

 

Excess service on the Culver Line between Kings Hwy and Church Av? Lol. Do you even know how many people on the Culver Line are going towards Manhattan during the morning commute (and reverse back from Manhattan in the evening commute)? I hope they eliminate that so-called express service between Myrtle and Marcy on the / (during the off-peak when trains are much less busy and run at 10 minute headways or so), since it's just 3 stops.

 

You really have an obsession over expresses being "faster" do you? This ain't no competition. Some express runs are for extra capacity or proper service levels. Some other express runs are based on demands and where people are going exactly (like for example, from Bay Ridge to Midtown or from Bedford Park Blvd to Midtown). Other than that, then there's obviously no need.

[ttcsubwayfan]

Diverting away from the current debate for a second... what is the point of the express between Marcy and Myrtle? Is it actually beneficial for those trains to skip Hewes, Lorimer and Flushing? I won't pretend that I know anything about the aforementioned corridor, because I really don't, but I've always found out it one of the strangest service patterns around.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Diverting away from the current debate for a second... what is the point of the express between Marcy and Myrtle? Is it actually beneficial for those trains to skip Hewes, Lorimer and Flushing? I won't pretend that I know anything about the aforementioned corridor, because I really don't, but I've always found out it one of the strangest service patterns around.

Well the replaces the and at those stations during this time. it is similar to the  / lines and the  / lines in the Bronx.

 

Also, the and are busy lines as they are the only lines to use skip-stop service, specifically between Myrtle Avenue and Jamaica.

[RollOver]

Well the replaces the and at those stations during this time. it is similar to the  / lines and the  / lines in the Bronx.

 

Also, the and are busy lines as they are the only lines to use skip-stop service, specifically between Myrtle Avenue and Jamaica.

 

It's to alleviate crowding for long-distance riders traveling between Jamaica and Lower Manhattan, enticing them to use the / skip-stop instead of the .

 

Leaving Jamaica Center between 7:15 and 8:15 in the morning rush. Later, leaving Broad Street between 4:55 and 5:45 p.m. That's it.

[CenSin]

Lmfao. Express makes fewer stops and Local makes all stops. Express alleviates crowding without having to increase the frequency of a train that's making all stops. Point blank and nothing more. It has to do with ridership and also demands, not be "faster". If I'm not mistaken, those corridors you've mention are busy during the rush.

I disagree that expresses are only for purposes other than being faster. Otherwise, the subways would not have been built the way we see them. Queens Boulevard and Central Park West are prime examples: long stretch of side platforms and even a separate bypass tunnel that takes a shortcut.

 

What was definitely built for capacity were the IND trunk lines, given that very few stations are skipped in the vicinity of midtown and lower Manhattan.

 

And how are any of your reasons applied against taking excess trains and running them express? If you speak of ridership demands, it's clear that the ridership is demanding an express (which is what started this thread). In fact, the MTA currently terminates excess trains at Kings Highway, depriving Coney Island of service that would be appreciated. Have they been "screwed" too by your undefined standard of "screwed?" They people who live furthest from Manhattan get less service and a longer commute than those who live closer; that's what I call "screwed."

 

 

Excess service on the Culver Line between Kings Hwy and Church Av? Lol. Do you even know how many people on the Culver Line are going towards Manhattan during the morning commute (and reverse back from Manhattan in the evening commute)?

I live right in Coney Island, and I took the to school in the mornings when I was in college (which wasn't too long ago). I speak from experience.

 

 

I hope they eliminate that so-called express service between Myrtle and Marcy on the / (during the off-peak when trains are much less busy and run at 10 minute headways or so), since it's just 3 stops.

I support the elimination of the and express on Broadway only because the goes to Midtown Manhattan and there are no convenient cross-platform transfers between the services west of Myrtle Avenue; if the train you need to transfer to skips ahead to Marcy Avenue first, then you need to get off and wait for the next one.

 

 

You really have an obsession over expresses being "faster" do you? This ain't no competition. Some express runs are for extra capacity or proper service levels. Some other express runs are based on demands and where people are going exactly (like for example, from Bay Ridge to Midtown or from Bedford Park Blvd to Midtown). Other than that, then there's obviously no need.

You really need to cut down on the personal attacks and address the matter at hand. You're being kind of vague. What thresholds need to be met for express service? What are the demands? Is this not a specific demand?

 

This is the actual letter sent to the MTA Executive Committee:

http://www.amny.com/transit/outerboro-transit-dreams-a-wishlist-of-service-improvements-1.9311988

 

======================================================================================

 

LETTER:

 

September 12, 2014

Thomas F. Prendergast

Chairman & Chief Executive Officer

Metropolitan Transportation Authority

2 Broadway New York, NY 10004

 

Dear Chairman Prendergast:

As elected officials representing the hundreds of thousands of Brooklyn residents who use the F train millions of times each year, we urge you to restore express service to the Brooklyn portion of the F subway line. Specifically, we ask that the MTA restore limited northbound F express service for morning commuters traveling from Coney Island to Manhattan and southbound F express service for evening commuters traveling from Manhattan back to Coney Island. We also ask that the MTA remain vigilant and work to remedy noise and vibration issues experienced by residents of neighborhoods directly above F express and local tracks.

 

The benefits of restoring the F train express service in Brooklyn would be felt throughout the borough with decreased travel time to Manhattan, decreased delays along the entire line, and a better quality of life for all subway riders in our communities. The F train consistently ranks among the most delayed lines in the MTA system and was specifically targeted for improvements by the MTA in the October 2009 Full-Line Review. Many of our communities are experiencing continued population growth which has only added to the crowded trains and delayed service. Add to this the fact that 19 of the 22 Brooklyn stops along the F train have seen increases in ridership over the last year and the combination results in a hectic, stressful commute for the residents of southern Brooklyn. The MTA’s review of 2013 ridership ratesshows Brooklyn as having the largest increase in ridership, with the increase being “driven by strong growth on the Canarsie L, crosstown G, and Culver F lines.” It is clear that there has been a longstanding issue along the F line in Brooklyn which has only been exasperated by population and ridership increases.

 

In addition, many other subway lines that service Brooklyn already have express service available at least part of the time. For example, the B train runs express along the entire Brighton line, while the N and D trains also run express in Brooklyn. It is time to extend that service to the people who live and work along the F line and the businesses that serve them. Doing so will shorten commutes, reduce unnecessary delays, and lessen the stress on the Brooklyn residents who rely on the F train while simultaneously helping to address a critical need the MTA has already acknowledged.

 

We are aware that the MTA is currently reviewing services along the F line as the Culver Viaduct rehabilitation project nears completion. Given the realities discussed above, it is imperative that the MTA respond to the increased ridership rates and seriously consider restoring F train express service in Brooklyn, while also maintaining current local F train headways, to improve the quality of life for all the residents of our growing communities. We eagerly await your response.

 

Sincerely,

Eric L. Adams - Brooklyn Borough President

Hakeem Jeffries - Member of Congress

Jerrold Nadler - Member of Congress

Michael G. Grimm - Member of Congress

Martin J. Golden - New York State Senator

Diane Savino - New York State Senator

Daniel Squadron - New York State Senator

James Brennan - New York State Assembly Member

Steven Cymbrowitz - New York State Assembly Member

William Colton - New York State Assembly Member

Joan L. Millman - New York State Assembly Member

Stephen Levin - New York City Council Member

David Greenfield - New York City Council Member

Mark Treyger - New York City Council Member

I don't think you understand the demands despite you throwing the word around. And what of your obsession against expresses?

[MTA Dude]

Diverting away from the current debate for a second... what is the point of the express between Marcy and Myrtle? Is it actually beneficial for those trains to skip Hewes, Lorimer and Flushing? I won't pretend that I know anything about the aforementioned corridor, because I really don't, but I've always found out it one of the strangest service patterns around.

 

After a long run from Jamaica to Broadway Junction, trains are pretty crowded. We can't do anything from Broadway to Myrtle, but we can do something from Myrtle to Manhattan. Since the is there, and it is pretty empty, the takes the riders while the and has a little run without extra people, and then it can let its passengers loose at Delancy.

 

Which is why I think they should connect the stub to the main tracks so trains can skip Marcy Avenue and not recieve extra crowds until it gets released in Manhattan.

 

Edit: The runs at 8 minute intervals while the / runs at 10? Lol.

[RollOver]

@CenSin

 

This is why I'm attacking you personally. You completely forgot about the plain fact that because of capacity constraints at Stillwell is why "every other" short turns at Kings Hwy. The crossover switches are directly west of W 8th St instead of closer to Stillwell. It's the same issue at Jamaica Center on the , where the X switches are located midway in the tunnel west of that station. Remember that I said this a few days ago in the Random Thoughts Thread?

 

-When are you ever going to realize that having a Culver Express would mean sending "every other" locals and "every other" ones express?

-When are you ever going to realize that having a Culver Express would mean restoring the , reverting the back to its old route and sending either the or via Culver Express?

-Do you really think it's wroth waiting an average of nearly 10 minutes for an express? Meanwhile, severely overcrowding the locals? Are you serious?

-The runs 12-15 tph (north of Kings Hwy) and 6-9 tph (south of Kings Hwy).

 

Think.

[Lance]

I'm going to jump in and answer the question posed by ttcsubwayfan. The J and Z trains run express towards Manhattan to allow the M to come off the Myrtle Ave el without being held up by through trains coming from Jamaica. They run express in the PM for the sake of simplicity since it doesn't look like riders from Nassau St overwhelmingly want the local stops between Marcy and Myrtle.

[CenSin]

@CenSin

 

This is why I'm attacking you personally.

Why not just attack the merits of my statements instead of me?

 

 

 

You completely forgot about the plain fact that because of capacity constraints at Stillwell is why "every other" short turns at Kings Hwy. The crossover switches are directly west of W 8th St instead of closer to Stillwell. It's the same issue at Jamaica Center on the , where the X switches are located midway in the tunnel west of that station. Remember that I said this a few days ago in the Random Thoughts Thread?

I've always been well-aware of this fact. In fact, these pretty much prove it:

• http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/34507-second-avenue-subway-construction-discussion/?view=findpost&p=792716
• http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/24490-subway-proposalsideas-thread/?view=findpost&p=793214

I don't explicitly mention the and Kings Highway in these, but if anything I've got a subway chops to know better than sending everything to a terminal that can't handle it.

 

And my point of bringing up Coney Island's reduced service compared to Kings Highway and beyond isn't false. It's true; they are screwed relative to their northern neighbors.

 

 

 

-When are you ever going to realize that having a Culver Express would mean sending "every other" locals and "every other" ones express?

That's absurd. A plan that splits express and local service cleanly in half would never go through in the first place. This wouldn't be an objection to an express in the first place because this wouldn't be the plan anyway.

 

 

 

-When are you ever going to realize that having a Culver Express would mean restoring the , reverting the back to its old route and sending either the or via Culver Express?

-Do you really think it's wroth waiting an average of nearly 10 minutes for an express? Meanwhile, severely overcrowding the locals? Are you serious?

It depends on what the plans are. It may or may not be 10 minutes between express trains. And overcrowding depends on the distribution of trains, which I have not even mentioned yet. You are arguing against a plan which I have not even posted!

 

 

 

-The runs 12-15 tph (north of Kings Hwy) and 6-9 tph (south of Kings Hwy).

Let me double-check those facts later.

 

 

 

Think.

A wise man once said:

 

If you always look for all the ways something won't work, you will never find any way that it will work.

I'll be thinking and I'll come back with a response later since I'm off to a birthday party now. Sit on that wise-man quote in the mean time.

[BronxBombers]

After a long run from Jamaica to Broadway Junction, trains are pretty crowded. We can't do anything from Broadway to Myrtle, but we can do something from Myrtle to Manhattan. Since the is there, and it is pretty empty, the takes the riders while the and has a little run without extra people, and then it can let its passengers loose at Delancy.

 

Which is why I think they should connect the stub to the main tracks so trains can skip Marcy Avenue and not recieve extra crowds until it gets released in Manhattan.

 

Edit: The runs at 8 minute intervals while the / runs at 10? Lol.

 

I agree 100% The & should skip Marcy and just go straight to Essex Street. I find the express run between Myrtle and Marcy to be pointless. Myrtle to Essex would be a lot better in my opinion. I think the could handle Marcy Avenue.

[RollOver]

@CenSin

 

I think the merits of your statements have already been attacked a year ago:

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/41959-still-no-brooklyn-f-express/?p=704801

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/41959-still-no-brooklyn-f-express/?p=705093

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/41959-still-no-brooklyn-f-express/?p=705140

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/41959-still-no-brooklyn-f-express/?p=706930

 

Don't these ring a bell to you? No? How astonishing.

 

Perhaps I've said enough.

[ttcsubwayfan]

Thanks everyone re; the express.

 

@CenSin

 

This is why I'm attacking you personally.

 

I'll put it like this - if there is a debate about old trains, and someone calls you a foamer for liking them, do YOU appreciate being called that? Because that's what you're doing to him, albeit in another form.

[RollOver]

You're right. I apologizes for the personal attacks. We all different opinions and views.

[realizm]

I don't think you understand the demands despite you throwing the word around. And what of your obsession against expresses?

I dont have any qualms about expresses. What I do have qualms about is when politicians go against common sense. If we decide to throw more cars on the F now, how are we supposed to compensate for the increases in service due to the opening of the Second Avenue Line? Supplies are limited...

 

Furthermore, the V would (again) have served the purpose of providing residents with local Manhattan service. Under that scenario then the F can run as an express. Of course the doomsday cuts came and the premature scrapping of some of the SMEEs leading to a near car shortage but thats for another discussion I guess.

[B35 via Church]

@CenSin

 

I think the merits of your statements have already been attacked a year ago:

 

......

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/41959-still-no-brooklyn-f-express/?p=706930

...was the most effective IMO... Andrew laid it down in that post.

------------------

 

For all intents & purposes, folks that live around the Culver already have their express - It's called the BRIGHTON line!

Worse, how is it that folks that live west of the culver, are taking buses to the Brighton line for the Brighton express OR local..... Part of the reason why the Brighton is so god damned crowded these days, & most of those F train stations south of church are as lowly used as they are (compared to local stations on the Brighton anyway)...

 

I cannot believe an F express would alleviate much of those ppl. that reside around the F south of Church, making their way to/from the Brighton.....

[Eric B]

@Eric B

 

Please allow me to clarify my response a little more to your post.

 

Obviously, there are long gaps after two trains come back to back and then an 8 minute wait without service. It happens on virtually every line. You can throw 9 extra roundtrips onto the route on top of the current 9 round trips and the amount of ridership would remain fairly low. All trains and buses run based on schedule, and are not just thrown at random out of the blue. That is, unless the aforementioned plagues get in the way of course. Then, there's the fact that service becomes irregular and why people keep saying ___ is full to the brim and so on. And also, the fact of why people propose X to go to Y.

 

More trains? Great. Empty trains and many seats/space available? Not so great. You can throw in as many, many more trains as you want and then there will be congestion further up the line. You want extra trains people? There are extra trains located in Manhattan and Brooklyn for ya - they're called the , which is basically apart of/the shorten version of the . Who says that those trains mention can't handle the extra load? Unless they're going further out north of 168th or east of Euclid, that is. Only then should adding more trains for that purpose be considered....

 

Part of the reason why we won't see a Culver Express anytime soon is all the reasons confirmed by us members of this site and the . Part of the reason why we won't see increases in service on most lines in the system is either because of the length of its route and sharing with other lines, and most importantly, the amount of ridership. What more could we all ask for?

It wasn't about extra (A)'s; it was whether there was enough capacity to add some (E)'s, for the Culver service (I advocate them going local, to Church Av. not express, To Coney Island, since this wouldn't even be all of the trains).

 

I wasn't saying to reduce the , as you eralier mentioned. In fact, I think it's usually horrible as it is. When I was going up to 207th to pick (all the pick locations are at the ends of the lines like that, and I had missed the main office at Livingston) a couple weeks ago, I waited more than 15 minutes at 14th (And hadn't just missed one), and when it arrived, it was packed, and this was like 7PM or later. There were no seats until about 181st or something. And I'm thinking about how these schedules make it look like there is such frequent, but in practice, it isn't. I'm not sure how much better it actually is at rush hours, but since all those things cause gaps in service like that, then there might still be actual capacity.

[Roadcruiser1]

Is it possible to split the service like the in the Rockaways?

[realizm]

...was the most effective IMO... Andrew laid it down in that post.

------------------

 

For all intents & purposes, folks that live around the Culver already have their express - It's called the BRIGHTON line!

Worse, how is it that folks that live west of the culver, are taking buses to the Brighton line for the Brighton express OR local..... Part of the reason why the Brighton is so god damned crowded these days, & most of those F train stations south of church are as lowly used as they are (compared to local stations on the Brighton anyway)...

 

I cannot believe an F express would alleviate much of those ppl. that reside around the F south of Church, making their way to/from the Brighton.....

 

 

Yeah AndrewJC was the one who originally gave me the lead to that study which I posted in this thread (He taught me alot of things). Thats exactly what I am going by.

 

I remember that discussion we were all involved in. That one takes the cake lol.

[Trainmaster5]

So I'm sitting back with a fellow retiree comparing tablets when I show him this thread. He's a Bronxiite and I'm a Brooklynite at heart but we had the same instructors in schoolcar. We went over each scenario presented in detail and then I asked him what he thought. His first response was something we learned in schoolcar, K.I.S.S.. You want to minimize extra switching, especially at choke points. I'm suprised my RTO folks missed that. Let a switch hang up north of Jay St, for example, and you effectively screw up two lines. We noticed someone wanted to run service via Rutgers, LOL. Same problem with Bergen upper and lower. The benefits may not outweigh the potential pitfalls. IMO the serves it's purpose as a Jamaica -Manhattan line so why screw it up ? Moving on to the question at hand, Culver express service. Is it necessary? Do the ridership patterns warrant it? I don't know the answer to that question. I will point out that only the Brighton line has had express service from almost Coney Island going back to the old BRT/BMT days. The Sea Beach , West End , and the Culver never had regular express service from Coney Island except the NX which never gained the projected ridership. Look how long that service lasted. Ninth Avenue was where the old Culver started gaining increased ridership and look how far north of C.I. that is. To me that's about where Church Avenue is on today's , right? I haven't traveled south of Church Avenue in quite some time so I have to go with what CenSin, B35,realizm, AndrewJC, and my RTO folks describe. Whatever you guys propose just remember to minimize delays as much as possible and don't jump on any quick fix like the , ,or ideas without looking at the whole picture.. Carry on.

[MysteriousBtrain]

Just out of curiosity, didn't the have express service at least in the peak direction in the 1980's?

 

[TheKorean]

It is, but only between Church Avenue and Avenue X. Between Church Avenue and Jay Street, there are two tracks instead.

 

 

So then only south bound or north bound, depending on time of the day will go express between Church Avenue and Avenue X? I suppose that could work.

[RollOver]

Since the is there, and it is pretty empty

 

That's not always true, because during the morning rush, the gets just as crowded as the / skip-stop. Reverse in the evening rush. The only differences is that riders from the Jamaica branch are on their way to Lower Manhattan for work, while riders on the Myrtle branch (including Flushing, Lorimer and Hewes) are on their way to Midtown Manhattan for work.

[TheNewYorkElevated]

Hmmm... If anyone didn't notice, this looks like a pretty hard topic to talk about if I'm being being honest.